Kevin Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 While someone proved that Google Wallet would interact with Ventra readers, one would now have to assume that that was only for cash fares, not transit accounts (with transfers). Thus, the need for an actual Ventra app. Google Wallet works with a transit account. That's how I pay. The main caveat with Google Wallet is that all of your transactions are processed by Google using a virtual credit card and then subsequently charged to the credit card you associated with Google Wallet. Therefore, your Ventra account is linked to that virtual number and not your actual credit card number. Because you don't have access to the virtual credit card number, you won't be able to register your transit account online if and when Ventra finally allows online registration of bank cards. Apple Pay is using a far more advanced and secure scheme than Google Wallet, but will suffer from the same limitation as Google Wallet. You won't know the card number (known as a "token" in this case) assigned to your phone, so you won't be able to register your Ventra account online whenever that functionality becomes available. As with bank cards, the most important thing to keep in mind is that you could loose your remaining value or pass if your card number or token changes for any reason. As tokenization becomes more common, credit card numbers may become more dynamic and subject to more frequent changes. Since apps are your business, how hard would it be to write one? And does the open system mean everyone is going to need a smart phone to have open access to the L? That doesn't seem that open. The plan, according to CTA PR, is to eventually add NFC support into the Ventra app: "By early 2016, the app will allow customers to download a virtual Ventra card onto their Near Field Communications-compatible mobile devices, which will allow them to access their Ventra transit accounts to pay for rides on trains and buses directly from the Ventra app by touching the phone or device to a Ventra reader." This is possible today on Android, but not currently on iPhones. While the newest iPhones now have NFC, Apple is not yet allowing third-party developers to tap into this technology. That could change in the future. I don't know where credit card and contactless technology will go in the future. Credit card issuers are always looking for ways to reduce fraud. The various technologies available in smartphones could go a long way in helping with that effort. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted October 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 Google Wallet works with a transit account. That's how I pay. The main caveat with Google Wallet is that all of your transactions are processed by Google using a virtual credit card and then subsequently charged to the credit card you associated with Google Wallet. Therefore, your Ventra account is linked to that virtual number and not your actual credit card number. Because you don't have access to the virtual credit card number, you won't be able to register your transit account online if and when Ventra finally allows online registration of bank cards. .... I am still not following how you can have a Transit Account on a Google Wallet, but not be able to register it. My reference, of course, was to the demonstration about 18 months ago where someone waived a phone with Google Wallet over a Ventra reader and got contact, although was not charged because the Ventra system was not yet active. ... The plan, according to CTA PR, is to eventually add NFC support into the Ventra app: "By early 2016, the app will allow customers to download a virtual Ventra card onto their Near Field Communications-compatible mobile devices, which will allow them to access their Ventra transit accounts to pay for rides on trains and buses directly from the Ventra app by touching the phone or device to a Ventra reader." .... After reading that release, I was assuming that the app would do two things at a minimum--let one check and add value to a transit account and use NFID to communicate with the reader. .... I don't know where credit card and contactless technology will go in the future. Credit card issuers are always looking for ways to reduce fraud. The various technologies available in smartphones could go a long way in helping with that effort. Which reminds me that the vending machines in a park district facility just changed their dollar slots to a reader with a dollar slot, swipe slot, and RFID symbol, but not a chip and pin slot. Did they goof, or did they figure people were going to buy Muscle Milk using a phone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 I am still not following how you can have a Transit Account on a Google Wallet, but not be able to register it. As you know, there are two types of Transit Accounts: registered and unregistered. If you register your Ventra card after purchasing it, then you have a registered transit account. Ventra knows your name, address, and phone number, plus you can manage your account online. An unregistered transit account means that you can add passes or value at a vending machine, but Ventra doesn't know who you are and you can't manage your account online. Currently, only Ventra-issued cards can be registered and managed online. Eventually, Ventra will allow any contactless bank card to be registered and managed online. However, this requires that you know the credit card number associated with your Ventra account. With both Google Wallet and Apple Pay, you won't have access to that number and therefore can not register those Ventra accounts. You can manage your account at a vending machine, but not online, and Ventra customer service is not be able to assist you with customer service matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted October 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 As you know, there are two types of Transit Accounts: registered and unregistered. If you register your Ventra card after purchasing it, then you have a registered transit account. Ventra knows your name, address, and phone number, plus you can manage your account online. An unregistered transit account means that you can add passes or value at a vending machine, but Ventra doesn't know who you are and you can't manage your account online. Currently, only Ventra-issued cards can be registered and managed online. Eventually, Ventra will allow any contactless bank card to be registered and managed online. However, this requires that you know the credit card number associated with your Ventra account. With both Google Wallet and Apple Pay, you won't have access to that number and therefore can not register those Ventra accounts. You can manage your account at a vending machine, but not online, and Ventra customer service is not be able to assist you with customer service matters. But what is the practical mode of operation? Do you stick a phone at the TVM tap point and the TVM knows to put a transit account on it? Or are you just saying that one can use a Google Wallet the same as, say, a Citicard Virtual Account Number, i.e. the payee doesn't know your real credit card account number, but somehow you pay to get money onto a Ventra card? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Do you stick a phone at the TVM tap point and the TVM knows to put a transit account on it? Or are you just saying that one can use a Google Wallet the same as, say, a Citicard Virtual Account Number, i.e. the payee doesn't know your real credit card account number, but somehow you pay to get money onto a Ventra card? When I load fare value on my Android phone, I tap the phone to the TVM, select the amount I want to load, and then swipe one of my credit cards to pay. (You can't actually fund the transaction with your phone – only cash or a mag-stripe card.) I can then use my Android phone without being subject to a PAYG fare. The Ventra account is associated with a virtual card number assigned by Google Wallet. If my fare value runs out, then I'm subject to PAYG fares which get charged to the Google Wallet virtual number. Google then charges the credit card I associated with my Google Wallet account. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garmon757 Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 When I load fare value on my Android phone, I tap the phone to the TVM, select the amount I want to load, and then swipe one of my credit cards to pay. (You can't actually fund the transaction with your phone – only cash or a mag-stripe card.) I can then use my Android phone without being subject to a PAYG fare. The Ventra account is associated with a virtual card number assigned by Google Wallet. If my fare value runs out, then I'm subject to PAYG fares which get charged to the Google Wallet virtual number. Google then charges the credit card I associated with my Google Wallet account. Do it work on multi-day passes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sw4400 Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 All Jewels have or will be getting the new VeriFone Pinpads, remodeled or not. My store has them and my former store does too. I believe that they are capable of being used with RFID cards, and eventually the Credit Cards with the chips like they have in Europe. I also heard that eventually, they may work with SmartPhones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted October 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 All Jewels have or will be getting the new VeriFone Pinpads, remodeled or not. My store has them and my former store does too. I believe that they are capable of being used with RFID cards, and eventually the Credit Cards with the chips like they have in Europe. I also heard that eventually, they may work with SmartPhones. Kevin discussed that before. The Pin and Chip card slides in the bottom, while it needs the wave symbol for RFID and phones. I forget which grocery, but they had a clear thing with the wave symbol on top of the VeriFone unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Do it work on multi-day passes? Yes, you can load either fare value or a multi-day pass just like a Ventra-branded card or bank card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted October 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 When I load fare value on my Android phone, I tap the phone to the TVM, select the amount I want to load, and then swipe one of my credit cards to pay. (You can't actually fund the transaction with your phone – only cash or a mag-stripe card.) I can then use my Android phone without being subject to a PAYG fare. The Ventra account is associated with a virtual card number assigned by Google Wallet. .... I understand it, but it seems bass ackward, for several reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Kevin discussed that before. The Pin and Chip card slides in the bottom, while it needs the wave symbol for RFID and phones. I forget which grocery, but they had a clear thing with the wave symbol on top of the VeriFone unit. Many of the modern payment terminals don't have a separate pad for contactless. Instead, the contactless reader is behind the screen. When a merchant enables contactless support, the wave symbol will appear on the screen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted October 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Many of the modern payment terminals don't have a separate pad for contactless. Instead, the contactless reader is behind the screen. When a merchant enables contactless support, the wave symbol will appear on the screen. I guess it is sort of like when I went to Mariano's yesterday, the VeriFone terminal didn't have the keyboard under the plastic shield like most of them, but the person before me had a debit card transaction, and one showed up on the touch screen. Also, for some strange reason, I didn't feel like having the Vero Gelato. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted October 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 Looks like Apple Pay learned a few tricks from Ventra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KedziePink Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 Looks like Apple Pay learned a few tricks from Ventra.Whoops! I guess it'll be time for 8.1.1 soon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted October 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 Whoops! I guess it'll be time for 8.1.1 soon... It was after the update that blocked users from using fingerprint recognition log in. Maybe to get closer to the topic, the official description sounds pretty similar to how Kevin described Google Wallet, which raises the question whether one wants to tap a TVM to create a transit account there or risk being quadruple charged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owine Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 Apple in discussions to expand Apple Pay to other application including transit cards. Cubic is specifically called out. http://9to5mac.com/2014/10/27/iphone-6-nfc-hotel-keycard-more/ For what it's worth, I was able to use Apple Pay to pay a "cash" fare with Ventra with no issues, it operated just as if I tapped my card itself (although my Chase cards also have lost their contactless capabilities). The obvious limitation is linking a device account number with a manageable transit account. I did not try establishing an account with the device account number. Adding my Ventra card to Apple Pay does not work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted October 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 Apple in discussions to expand Apple Pay to other application including transit cards. Cubic is specifically called out. http://9to5mac.com/2014/10/27/iphone-6-nfc-hotel-keycard-more/ For what it's worth, I was able to use Apple Pay to pay a "cash" fare with Ventra with no issues, it operated just as if I tapped my card itself (although my Chase cards also have lost their contactless capabilities). The obvious limitation is linking a device account number with a manageable transit account. I did not try establishing an account with the device account number. Adding my Ventra card to Apple Pay does not work. I had seen elsewhere the point in the link in the article to which you refer that some merchants are trying to disable Apple Pay, in favor of their own systems. Apparently, things will not be as universal as what might be possible. The "Adding my Ventra card to Apple Pay does not work" was an interesting twist, in that it implies that a Ventra card is not a MasterCard, but maybe the implication is that the Ventra Card is not associated with a bank with which Apple has an agreement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owine Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 I had seen elsewhere the point in the link in the article to which you refer that some merchants are trying to disable Apple Pay, in favor of their own systems. Apparently, things will not be as universal as what might be possible. The "Adding my Ventra card to Apple Pay does not work" was an interesting twist, in that it implies that a Ventra card is not a MasterCard, but maybe the implication is that the Ventra Card is not associated with a bank with which Apple has an agreement. It's the bank part, not the MasterCard part since only certain banks are participating. At least that is what the message said, just as it said for my PayPal MasterCard (which is unsurprising in its lack of support). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted October 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 It's the bank part, not the MasterCard part since only certain banks are participating. At least that is what the message said, just as it said for my PayPal MasterCard (which is unsurprising in its lack of support). The other thing I found troubling in that article is that Apple is not opening the NFI API. Thus, while it says it is talking to Cubic, nothing necessarily says that the app which the agencies here announced they were developing would necessarily work with an iPhone 6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted November 29, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2014 Many of the modern payment terminals don't have a separate pad for contactless. Instead, the contactless reader is behind the screen. When a merchant enables contactless support, the wave symbol will appear on the screen. Turns out that, as usual, you are correct. Panera's terminal has an rfid logo on its touch screen. They also had banners saying to get their app, and among the things mentioned on the banner was that you can store your credit card number there. Again this typifies why the transit boards here said that they are developing a Ventra app. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sw4400 Posted November 29, 2014 Report Share Posted November 29, 2014 Apparently, Jewel is accepting Apple Pay according to their Facebook as of 11/19/14. Did they train their employees??? Nope!!! I haven't heard one iota about this.... I hope nobody comes in wanting to use Apple Pay, because I'm clueless as how to input it into our NCR System. https://www.facebook.com/JewelOsco/posts/10152861546294349 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted November 29, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2014 Apparently, Jewel is accepting Apple Pay according to their Facebook as of 11/19/14. Did they train their employees??? Nope!!! I haven't heard one iota about this.... I hope nobody comes in wanting to use Apple Pay, because I'm clueless as how to input it into our NCR System. ... If it is like what I described with regard to Panera, you don't have to know anything. Either the Veriphone terminal accepts the NFID signal, or the customer will have to provide another means of payment. Of course, it appears that your employer was about as interested in getting the word out to employees as WGN Radio was in letting employees of 87.7 The Game find out on the blogosphere first that the station is being shut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownliner Posted November 29, 2014 Report Share Posted November 29, 2014 If it is like what I described with regard to Panera, you don't have to know anything. Either the Veriphone terminal accepts the NFID signal, or the customer will have to provide another means of payment. . Yes. Apple pay is just contactless EMV. It works, to the terminal, exactly like any other contactless EMV card. the acquiring bank has to support dealing with the tokenized payment, but there's nothing the merchant, the terminal, or the employee running the terminal (if there is one) has to do special. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownliner Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 I've noticed that ventra have started sending emails for automatic reloads. That took them a year. While I'm glad they've gotten to 1996, it's pathetic it wasn't a feature from day 1, and just incompetence on the part of the CTA that it wasn't a hard requirement in the contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted March 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Hilkevitch article on how change orders are increasing the cost of Ventra. Some stuff like the Pace add on shouldn't be a surprise.Charging to fix software glitches should be. Also, apparently Metra is now in violation of the regional fare payment card law, not that it makes any practical difference. The one notable thing is that apparently people aren't being suckered by the Ventra debit card, which should make sw and any sane person happy. However,the article didn't mention that that besides it costing Cubic (or more likely Meta Bank) money, it is also costing CTA commissions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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