Ventra - Feedback and Updates

[jajuan]

I'm not being sarcastic, judgmental sir. Like I said before, did you see the plexiglass shield on 7900, and Garmon accepting my analogy to the one at Harold's? At least Harold's has a money slot.

It took Claypool about 2 months to figure out that the fault was Cubic's and not the passengers' the first time around. Apparently this time it still isn't Cubic's fault, but the drivers'

I hope the arbitrators charge CTA a sufficient amount to handle all the grievances..

I think you know I'm not going to feed your usual beef with CTA management nor am I going to feed into your this can never be fixed mantra. And I'm not being judmental, but I do see where you're letting your beef with CTA management cloud your eyes to a simple point that at the very least an operator shouldn't just sit there silently while a passenger is standing there tapping away in frustration. Tell the rider something. Tell him whether you got a slow machine, which does still happen at times. Tell him whether the reader is stuck in a reset cycle. Ask if he had problems on another bus or train. Something. But don't just sit there letting the rider look silly and let an issue escalate into a conflict that doesn't need to be and can be avoided. I could care less about your gripes with that goof Claypool, but assisting a rider where possible still falls in an operator's job description. Don't just leave that rider confused and wondering if it's ok to board and take a seat or if he should keep tapping away till a Go screen pops up. The operators can go through whatever channels they got available to work through disciplines they think are too harsh, but they still aren't completely absolved from trying to help out their riders because of the jams in the system. Sorry.

[trainman8119]

Still think automatic fare paying systems are the way to go ???

http://money.msn.com/investing/post--hedge-fund-exec-busted-for-cheating-subway-system#scpshrjwfbs

[MetroShadow]

Still think automatic fare paying systems are the way to go ???

http://money.msn.com/investing/post--hedge-fund-exec-busted-for-cheating-subway-system#scpshrjwfbs

Basically one of the problems with rolling the dice with "tap-in/tap out" systems--you exploit a flaw in the current system and play to the rules. That shouldn't surprise anyone (except for paying it back so fast).

Perhaps they should've latched the gates at the starting point.

But Metra will have a ball with dealing with this.

[Busjack]

...

But Metra will have a ball with dealing with this.

Basically the reason (previously discussed) why Metra is buying this system.

One would have assumed that London would have had a means for conductors to audit fares, but I guess not. As I previously indicated, the only way Metra could enforce tap out is fi somehow they could collect the Zone J fare if you didn't. I don't think most riders would have that much stored on their cards used as transit media, and, as indicated with all the stink about the bank cards, people would go to their banks to have that charge reversed.

In effect, the only way the Tollway enforces this with people who go through I-Pass lanes without an I-Pass is to have an outrageous fine if you don't pay up in 7 days. But at least most cars have license plates.

[busfan2847]

Basically the reason (previously discussed) why Metra is buying this system.

One would have assumed that London would have had a means for conductors to audit fares, but I guess not. As I previously indicated, the only way Metra could enforce tap out is fi somehow they could collect the Zone J fare if you didn't. I don't think most riders would have that much stored on their cards used as transit media, and, as indicated with all the stink about the bank cards, people would go to their banks to have that charge reversed.

In effect, the only way the Tollway enforces this with people who go through I-Pass lanes without an I-Pass is to have an outrageous fine if you don't pay up in 7 days. But at least most cars have license plates.

There are no conductors on trains in London and the South East. Very occasionally you will get a revenue inspector. All major stations and many other stations are now closed access requiring you to go through an automatic ticket barrier with a valid ticket or Oyster card. The smaller stations out in the suburbs (Stonegate is many miles outside the Oyster ticket area) still have open access and rely on people being scared of being caught. Even if the station ticket office is closed you are expected to buy a permit to travel from a ticket machine at the station. If you are caught without it you are likely to end up with a hefty fine.

All UK stations have high platforms making it easier to secure the stations than is the case with the low level platforms on the Metra diesel lines (and in the South East they are all 3rd rail!)

[Busjack]

....If you are caught without it you are likely to end up with a hefty fine.

....

I went back to the story to confirm that the settlement was only for the back fares and court costs; no fine.

Maybe the operator was glad to get its £43,000 ($72,000), but that isn't much of a deterrent if he was able to hold onto his money for up to maybe 5 years.

Stonegate must be really out of town if the fare is £24.50 (approx $41) but the assumed missed fare is £7.20 (approx. $12).

This sort of sounds like the old days on the IC, in which the comparison would be that the fare barrier at 211th St-Lincoln Highway (Zone F) was out of service, but they let you through the barrier at Randolph St. at the fare for up to Woodlawn-63rd (Zone B_).

[busfan2847]

I went back to the story to confirm that the settlement was only for the back fares and court costs; no fine.

Maybe the operator was glad to get its £43,000 ($72,000), but that isn't much of a deterrent if he was able to hold onto his money for up to maybe 5 years.

Stonegate must be really out of town if the fare is £24.50 (approx $41) but the assumed missed fare is £7.20 (approx. $12).

This sort of sounds like the old days on the IC, in which the comparison would be that the fare barrier at 211th St-Lincoln Highway (Zone F) was out of service, but they let you through the barrier at Randolph St. at the fare for up to Woodlawn-63rd (Zone B_).

For anyone caught on a train without a ticket the penalty fare for Southeastern Trains is £20 or twice the full single fare from the station where the passenger got on the train to the next station at which the train stops, whichever is the greater.

He did pay a penalty fare however as an annual ticket over five years would have cost £22,740 and he was charged the full daily fare over five years of £42,550 + legal costs (Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2603676/High-flying-fund-manager-spends-five-years-dodging-rail-fares-coughs-43-000-caught.html#ixzz2zNjpjt9i )

Stonegate is 43m from London Charing Cross and about 30m outside the Oyster zone.

Southeastern told the Sunday times that all passengers have the option to avoid prosecution and settle out of court and that this guy wanted to protect his identity because he was concerned about the impact it would have on his job.

[Busjack]

...

He did pay a penalty fare however as an annual ticket over five years would have cost £22,740 and he was charged the full daily fare over five years of £42,550 + legal costs (Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2603676/High-flying-fund-manager-spends-five-years-dodging-rail-fares-coughs-43-000-caught.html#ixzz2zNjpjt9i )

...

That's not a penalty, since he never bought an annual ticket.

The only analogy here is the Illinois Tollway, which says on its Pay a Toll Violation page that an I-Pass or EZ-Pass violator can avoid a violation by paying "only the cash rate for toll." under certain circumstances. The cash rate is twice the I-Pass rate for passenger cars. If you don't do what they say, you also have to pay the penalty in the notice.

To the extent Metra is analogous, if you don't have a ticket when you board the train, you pay the cash fare for the applicable zone plus a $3 service charge, unless an agent was not at the boarding station. Conductors do not charge 1/44 of a monthly ticket.

[ctrabs74]

That's not a penalty, since he never bought an annual ticket.

The only analogy here is the Illinois Tollway, which says on its Pay a Toll Violation page that an I-Pass or EZ-Pass violator can avoid a violation by paying "only the cash rate for toll." under certain circumstances. The cash rate is twice the I-Pass rate for passenger cars. If you don't do what they say, you also have to pay the penalty in the notice.

To the extent Metra is analogous, if you don't have a ticket when you board the train, you pay the cash fare for the applicable zone plus a $3 service charge, unless an agent was not at the boarding station. Conductors do not charge 1/44 of a monthly ticket.

Which is standard at most "traditional" railroads (ie. Metro-North, LIRR, NJ Transit, MBTA, etc.), though the service charge would also apply if there's a functioning ticket vending machine at a station.

[Busjack]

Which is standard at most "traditional" railroads (ie. Metro-North, LIRR, NJ Transit, MBTA, etc.), though the service charge would also apply if there's a functioning ticket vending machine at a station.

I think that the latter applies on the Metra Electric, which sill has the vending machines, but not the fare barriers.

[busfan2847]

That's not a penalty, since he never bought an annual ticket.

He did before 2008 and 5 days after being caught. By being caught it has cost him £20,000 more than if he had bought the ticket he had been doing previously. The train company has saved the time and cost of taking him to court to get anything more from him.

[jajuan]

Ventra website is now upgraded to show the time an unlimited pass on the card expires in addition to the date. I noticed it Thursday when I loaded a new pass on my card. I know BusHunter and I believe sw had raised the issue of them not showing the time passes expire. Also pass reload options are now given as "Add one-time pass" and "Add pass with autoload".

[ctrabs74]

I think that the latter applies on the Metra Electric, which sill has the vending machines, but not the fare barriers.

From Metra's web site:

An extra $3 is charged when a cash fare is paid on the train, except from a station at which no ticket agent or vending machine is available.

[jajuan]

New notices are now out at rail stations. Chicago Cards and CCP won't work starting June 1st nor can they be reloaded starting May 1st which is next Thursday. Transit cards and any other mag stripe cards won't be accepted after July 1st. New ones sold at rail stations will no longer be issued starting May 1st. Starting on that date up until June 1st, the only thing you can do is reload transit cards you already have in your possession. Reloads for mag stripe cards end June 1st.

[Amtrak41]

"Which is standard at most "traditional" railroads (ie. Metro-North, LIRR, NJ Transit, MBTA, etc.), though the service charge would also apply if there's a functioning ticket vending machine at a station."

SEPTA has very few TVM's and ticket agents. Nonetheless, the on-board surcharge applies regardless.

[Busjack]

"Which is standard at most "traditional" railroads (ie. Metro-North, LIRR, NJ Transit, MBTA, etc.), though the service charge would also apply if there's a functioning ticket vending machine at a station."

SEPTA has very few TVM's and ticket agents. Nonetheless, the on-board surcharge applies regardless.

Although regular commuters on Metra use monthlies,Metra assumes a certain number of casual riders, and usually keeps the outlying stations staffed in the morning. I assume (like the stink when the discount was eliminated on 10 ride tickets and passengers stopped buying them) that there would be a stink if the surcharge were applied even if the station agent was not available, the only alternative then being Ticket by Mail.

[Amtrak41]

NJT nails you a $3 fee for a pass by mail

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

A friendly reminder: Magnetic fare cards now cannot be bought, and Chicago Card and Chicago Card Plus cannot be reloaded.

[Busjack]

The Tribune is having some fun with #AskVentra tweets.

The real question is which is more preferable:

• Nasty tweets on subject?
• Goofing with the hash tag by asking Ventra to answer personal and philosophic questions?*

At this point, I vote for #2.

I see in the 4:30 p.m. update Tammy Propogandist Chase is claiming that the hashtag is accomplishing something. I guess anything to occupy the "work" day.

*Probably, the best one, based on the goose chase on 80-94 yesterday at this time is:

Would you rather fight one giraffe-sized goose, or 100 goose-sized giraffes? #AskVentra

[Busjack]

Slightly related: this story via Yahoo! Finance that U.S. credit cards will be converted to Ventra type technology, because of the Target mess. Of course, even though the data would be on the server instead of the magnetic stripe, I wonder if hackers could still hack it. In any event, another reason not to tap your wallet.

[Kevin]

Slightly related: this story via Yahoo! Finance that U.S. credit cards will be converted to Ventra type technology, because of the Target mess. Of course, even though the data would be on the server instead of the magnetic stripe, I wonder if hackers could still hack it. In any event, another reason not to tap your wallet.

Not exactly. These are two different technologies.

Ventra uses contactless, RFID-based chips that are no more secure than a mag stripe.

The European-style EMV chip cards that will ultimately replace the magnetic stripe are contact chips. This is what they look like. The cards must be physically inserted into a reader while the user enters either a PIN or signature.

EMV cards can also include a contactless chip, but that's still separate from the contact EMV chip.

[Busjack]

Not exactly. These are two different technologies.

Ventra uses contactless, RFID-based chips that are no more secure than a mag stripe.

The European-style EMV chip cards that will ultimately replace the magnetic stripe are contact chips. This is what they look like. The cards must be physically inserted into a reader while the user enters either a PIN or signature.

EMV cards can also include a contactless chip, but that's still separate from the contact EMV chip.

The impression I got, from the article mentioning "For the record, there are already several cards with chip technology available to Americans, from American Express and JPMorgan Chase among other institutions" that by listing Chase, they were referring to the technology in that card, already accepted by Ventra, McDonald's, Produce World, and, surprisingly some Pepsi machines (those $3 tabs for Muscle Milk sure add up).

But since the article did mention Europe, that would appear to mean that not just 90% of merchants would have to change terminals, but 100% would, unless the terminals with the wave symbol can read both types of chips, but, since you say that the European ones have to be inserted into a slot, the various companies I mentioned apparently have already banked on obsolete technology.

Also, the impression I got from articles about the Target breach was not so much that the hackers hacked the cards, but that somehow they installed malware on the readers to "scrape" the data before it was encoded and sent to the server. I would assume that in the RFID case, the only thing sent to the server would be the ID of the chip.

From the illustration, is the card similar to the one they tell you to insert into the touch screen voting machine if you early vote? The two look about the same. Obviously, the chip in the voting card is reprogrammable.

[Kevin]

But since the article did mention Europe, that would appear to mean that not just 90% of merchants would have to change terminals, but 100% would, unless the terminals with the wave symbol can read both types of chips, but, since you say that the European ones have to be inserted into a slot, the various companies I mentioned apparently have already banked on obsolete technology.

Most terminals issued within the last few years are EMV-ready, but the slots are not necessarily enabled yet. If look closely at a newer card terminal, you may see a slot at the bottom that accepts EMV cards.

Also, the impression I got from articles about the Target breach was not so much that the hackers hacked the cards, but that somehow they installed malware on the readers to "scrape" the data before it was encoded and sent to the server. I would assume that in the RFID case, the only thing sent to the server would be the ID of the chip.

A contactless chip transmits the full credit card number in the same way as a magnetic stripe. I've heard various arguments on whether or not EMV would have actually prevented the Target hack. Had everyone been on EMV, it would have at least made it very difficult to create phony credit cards with the stolen numbers.

From the illustration, is the card similar to the one they tell you to insert into the touch screen voting machine if you early vote? The two look about the same. Obviously, the chip in the voting card is reprogrammable.

Similar function, in the sense that the card must remain in the unit until the transaction is complete.

[Busjack]

....

Similar function, in the sense that the card must remain in the unit until the transaction is complete.

That's really going to delay transactions, as even ATMs now assume that you just swipe and take your card while the ATM otherwise does its business. The ATM card cloners won't have to install fake slots over the card slot, but just wait for you to insert, and then get out their guns (or in the case of N. Western Ave., an ax).

Can you imagine waiting for a gas pump to complete a transaction?

On the terminal picture, that's the kind I have seen in most independent food stores lately, so I'll have to take a closer look.

[Busjack]

...Man, did you see the lines on Monday and Tuesday at the Ventra machines at the "L" stations. Most were four to five deep and the CA was constantly answering questions. One even brought a chair over. ..

If one is to believe the CTA statements that 90% of card rides are on Ventra, that shouldn't have been the case. Undoubtedly there are procrastinators, but it shouldn't have been to that extent.

Hence, I tend not to believe the statements.