Former CTA 6000s on SEPTA

[Paul Fortini]

I have on my FLICKR photo stream this http://www.flickr.com/photos/52209513@N03/8802604417/ 1995 photo of a former CTA set of 6000s at SEPTA's 69th Street Terminal.

I know that SEPTA acquired them in the late 1980s or early 1990s for use on the Norristown Line when their own Brill Bullets became unreliable.

But does anyone know which CTA 6000s SEPTA bought? What were their original numbers and how dd SEPTA renumber them? The car photographed appears to be SEPTA #482. But it can't be CTA ex-6482 because its a 'flat door six'.

I know I was lucky to get this photo because by that time, SEPTA already had a lot of the N5 cars on the Norristown.

[geneking7320]

I am in the Philly Traction Yahoo! Group [i'm a Chicagoan I just like electric transit] and I know someone on that list could give you a quick answer.

[artthouwill]

I think you mean Flxble buses. The CTA didn't get their 5300 series FLXBLE Metros until 1993, and didn't receive the 6000 series Metros until 1995. ,The Metros first introduction to the Chicago area were the 8200 series purchased by the RTA in the early 80s. As beautiful looking and smooth riding as they were, they had a short life due to cracking frames.

[chicagopcclcar]

I too rode the CTA 6000 series cars in service on the SEPTA Norristown line. If you Google the 69th St. terminal and yard (use any Philly street address) you will see two PCC 6000s still there in the yard in 2013!! The CTA cars were purchased for $250.00 per car plus shipping and handling. SEPTA determined those cars, "could be made ready for Norristown service with the least amount of difficulty. And SEPTA already had the experience of converting the two North Shore Electroliners to "LibertyLiners." The advantage of the CTA car over MBTA Boston "Orange line cars" was that they were mechanically similar to the PCC streetcar, a vehicle SEPTA was already familiar with and the CTA cars were operating whereas the Boston cars have been in storage some five years."

Ironically, the flatdoor 6000s being considered for purchase were all on the Ravenswood line and were being replaced by the Budd 2600s built in Philadelphia. Twelve cars were chosen, four were already pulled from service (6151/6152, 6161/6162). The remainder were in service and asked to be set aside(6079/6080, 6089-6090, 6109-6110, and 6139-6140) The cars would be acquired "as is" minus their ATC packages, truck plows, and trolley shoe assemblies. CTA cars entered Norristown service December, 1986 keeping their CTA numbers. In July, 1987, they were renumbered: 6079/80 to 480/481; 6089/90 to 482/483; 6139/40 to 484/485; 6151/52 to 486/487; 6161/62 to 488/489. 6109-6110 are stripped for parts at Woodland Shops, Philadelphia. The track gage of the Norristown line is standard 4 ft. 8.5 inches. They also experimented with a set of Market-Frankford "almond joys" that had to be re-trucked as MF el is broad gage while the Broad Street subway in Philly is standard gage too. "Market-Frankford is "broad" while the Broad St. subway is standard." Local phrase!!!

Hope that helps. Yes, I have video...I'll put it on the list. My YouTube is msibnsf.

[Busjack]

I think you mean Flxble buses. The CTA didn't get their 5300 series FLXBLE Metros until 1993, and didn't receive the 6000 series Metros until 1995. ,The Metros first introduction to the Chicago area were the 8200 series purchased by the RTA in the early 80s. As beautiful looking and smooth riding as they were, they had a short life due to cracking frames.

No, he is referring to L cars. Krambles's book mentions that CTA was essentially the only property to run PCC rapid transit, except for SEPTA's Norristown line, which acquired theirs from CTA.

Google Images includes 486. Chicago-l.org has a couple of pictures on 6000s gallery page 3.

[chicagopcclcar]

Rounding off some more real information.....the Norristown line has a standard width at the floor of 10 ft. so an 8 in. threshold was welded onto the outside at each doorway. A conductor's position was created in each car next to the rear doorway by removing a full seat opposite the motorman's cab from the bank of six middle seats. A farebox and a plug-in for the hand held buzzer completed the set-up. The conductor stood inside the front car and operated from here. The door controls were moved to the motorman's cab. The motorman opened and closed the doors upon signalling from the conductor by the buzzer. A cord was hung from front to rear and passengers pulled the cord for a stop just like on a bus! At terminals, all four doors opened. Also at terminals, the crews switched positions. The conductor became the motorman on the trip back and the motorman became the conductor. The Norristown route was like the Evanston, but two tracked and with about twenty station stops. A big long bridge across a big river at the Norristown end was single-tracked. That bridge is forcing a line curtailment in 2013. The line is third rail powered, the trolley rail being covered, so paddle shoes were added to the CTA cars. The line suffers from a lot of leaves and moisture on the rails so the new cars that replaced the PCCs have a complicated computer controlled "slip-slide" operation.

[Busjack]

Doing a little deeper seach on chicago-l.org yielded 6151 and 6161 after being shipped to SEPTA (6000 series gallery 13).

[BusHunter]

There a whole bunch of pictures of former #6000's on SEPTA branch lines here http://nycsubway.org/wiki/SEPTA_Rt._100:_Norristown_Line (just pan down and look at the pictures gallery, most if not all the cars are in this gallery) Kind of interesting, there's one pair that ran in the alpine white and hunter green livery (Ex CTA #6079-80) and one that still has the CTA bicentennial paint job on it. (#6139-40) You can still see the #6139 CTA fleet number in one of the pictures.

[chicagopcclcar]

There a whole bunch of pictures of former #6000's on SEPTA branch lines here http://nycsubway.org/wiki/SEPTA_Rt._100:_Norristown_Line (just pan down and look at the pictures gallery, most if not all the cars are in this gallery) Kind of interesting, there's one pair that ran in the alpine white and hunter green livery (Ex CTA #6079-80) and one that still has the CTA bicentennial paint job on it. (#6139-40) You can still see the #6139 CTA fleet number in one of the pictures.

I've already posted the complete roster and renumbering by SEPTA for the CTA 6000 cars. As for the pictures quoted in Chicago L.org...those pictures are credited properly to a series of videos I produced under the name"All The 6000's You Missed" and on SEPTA's Norristown line, the CTA cars did operate for six months under their CTA numbers before being renumbered into the "480" series. But for trivia buffs, here's a little known fact....CTA car 6080, renumbered 481 by SEPTA was seen on the old TV show, "The Bob Newhart Show" when "Bob" boarded the "L" during the show's introduction scenes.

[BusHunter]

Rounding off some more real information.....the Norristown line has a standard width at the floor of 10 ft. so an 8 in. threshold was welded onto the outside at each doorway. A conductor's position was created in each car next to the rear doorway by removing a full seat opposite the motorman's cab from the bank of six middle seats. A farebox and a plug-in for the hand held buzzer completed the set-up. The conductor stood inside the front car and operated from here. The door controls were moved to the motorman's cab. The motorman opened and closed the doors upon signalling from the conductor by the buzzer. A cord was hung from front to rear and passengers pulled the cord for a stop just like on a bus! At terminals, all four doors opened. Also at terminals, the crews switched positions. The conductor became the motorman on the trip back and the motorman became the conductor. The Norristown route was like the Evanston, but two tracked and with about twenty station stops. A big long bridge across a big river at the Norristown end was single-tracked. That bridge is forcing a line curtailment in 2013. The line is third rail powered, the trolley rail being covered, so paddle shoes were added to the CTA cars. The line suffers from a lot of leaves and moisture on the rails so the new cars that replaced the PCCs have a complicated computer controlled "slip-slide" operation.

I'm kind of surprised you don't have an interior picture of the SEPTA #480's. (now that would be interesting) You sound like you have been on them before. BTW, I checked Youtube there is actually a video of the #480's in service on there. Here it is http://youtube.com/watch?v=4D_RiqFPkNk

If you look in the video the train is numbered #478. What train is that? It's not in your roster. One thing that kind of surprises me about the SEPTA #480's is that most were retired and went to scrap. No one seems interested in preserving them. They have #482 - #483 in the yard, but it sounds like it's in a state of decay, not being protected from the elements. I guess it's not as exciting as the Liberty Liners.

[chicagopcclcar]

I'm kind of surprised you don't have an interior picture of the SEPTA #480's. (now that would be interesting) You sound like you have been on them before. BTW, I checked Youtube there is actually a video of the #480's in service on there. Here it is http://youtube.com/watch?v=4D_RiqFPkNk

If you look in the video the train is numbered #478. What train is that? It's not in your roster. One thing that kind of surprises me about the SEPTA #480's is that most were retired and went to scrap. No one seems interested in preserving them. They have #482 - #483 in the yard, but it sounds like it's in a state of decay, not being protected from the elements. I guess it's not as exciting as the Liberty Liners.

I do. I have the motorman in the cab. I have the conductor calling stops, buzzing, collecting fares. Video is on board for complete round trip and trackside at several locations. I even have the 6000s in company with the Brills. Just gotta reformat it.

P.S. How'd you even see a number on the 6000s? Out of focus and VHS resoluiton.

Edit.....OK I see a "478" in stop motion just before a scene change.

[Paul Fortini]

Thanks for the input, everybody.

[chicagopcclcar]

Stop the presses.....Stop the presses!

Google Windber, PA, its south of Johnstown, PA. Locate 19th Street. There are strings of PCC streetcars off in the woods....and....and....what looks like the rest of the Norristown ex CTA 6000s. Have we found all ten??? Eight here and two in Philly?? Remember two were scrapped at the get-go.

Still haven't answered the renumbering down to 876.

http://maps.google.com/maps?client=safari&rls=en&oe=UTF-8&q=windber,+pa&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x89cb053816023d1d:0xa0ddaecf95fbf859,Windber,+PA&gl=us&sa=X&ei=1velUZ3eFJO88wShxIDADg&ved=0CHoQtgM

[busfan2847]

Stop the presses.....Stop the presses!

Google Windber, PA, its south of Johnstown, PA. Locate 19th Street. There are strings of PCC streetcars off in the woods....and....and....what looks like the rest of the Norristown ex CTA 6000s. Have we found all ten??? Eight here and two in Philly?? Remember two were scrapped at the get-go.

Still haven't answered the renumbering down to 876.

http://maps.google.com/maps?client=safari&rls=en&oe=UTF-8&q=windber,+pa&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x89cb053816023d1d:0xa0ddaecf95fbf859,Windber,+PA&gl=us&sa=X&ei=1velUZ3eFJO88wShxIDADg&ved=0CHoQtgM

According to the Roster of preserved North American Electric cars 476-479 are 6069/70 & 6175/6 which were purchased by SEPTA in 1987 the year after the original 12 ( http://www.bera.org/pnaerc.html ). That means 14 cars were used in service by SEPTA 476-489.

Also all still exist:-

Middletown & Hummelstown 476/7

Vintage Electric Streetcar 478-81, 484-9 (these are the cars at Winber PA)

SEPTA 482/3

If you use Bing maps http://tinyurl.com/yzkd664 and rotate the view you can see the cars clearly behind the building.

[chicagopcclcar]

So except for a second pair purchased in 1987 with SEPTA 476-479 and scrapped, we've accounted for all 6000s sold and located all 14 survivors. Vintage Electric Streetcar hopefully wanted to especially use the trucks, motors, and PCC electrical components in new cars but so far that hasn't come to be.

6079/80 to 480/481;

6089/90 to 482/483;

6139/40 to 484/485;

6151/52 to 486/487;

6161/62 to 488/489.

6109-6110 scrapped

6xxx-6xxx second pair scrapped

6069/70 to 476/477

6175/76 to 478/479

Also all still exist:-

Middletown & Hummelstown 476/7

Vintage Electric Streetcar 478-81, 484-9 (these are the cars at Windber PA)

SEPTA 482/3 (the two cars in the yard at Philly)

[BusHunter]

Stop the presses.....Stop the presses!

Google Windber, PA, its south of Johnstown, PA. Locate 19th Street. There are strings of PCC streetcars off in the woods....and....and....what looks like the rest of the Norristown ex CTA 6000s. Have we found all ten??? Eight here and two in Philly?? Remember two were scrapped at the get-go.

Still haven't answered the renumbering down to 876.

http://maps.google.com/maps?client=safari&rls=en&oe=UTF-8&q=windber,+pa&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x89cb053816023d1d:0xa0ddaecf95fbf859,Windber,+PA&gl=us&sa=X&ei=1velUZ3eFJO88wShxIDADg&ved=0CHoQtgM

Thought you guys might get a kick out of this. Someone on Facebook uploaded a whole bunch of pictures of the insides and outsides of cars that I believe are in this same forest. Included are ex CTA #6000's that ran as SEPTA service.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.716961651677076.1073741887.137867286253185&type=3

[Guest]

Thought you guys might get a kick out of this. Someone on Facebook uploaded a whole bunch of pictures of the insides and outsides of cars that I believe are in this same forest. Included are ex CTA #6000's that ran as SEPTA service.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.716961651677076.1073741887.137867286253185&type=3

Would be nice if IRM could bring some of this equipment back home if they still exist!

[SlickFlair_859]

Hey you guys, the 2 cars at 69th St went to a railroad museum in NC last year and they're being rebuilt to run there.

 

They were originally purchased from SEPTA by a railfan for his own use, but he passed away before they could be moved. So, SEPTA still wanted to give them to his family to get them off the property, but they didn't want them so the cars sat in limbo because being as though they didn't own them, they couldn't get rid of them. So, I guess at some point the family negotiated a deal with the museum and SEPTA to make the move happen and to where they wouldn't get scrapped. Me and my bro went out to take pics of them at King Manor station (where a delivery track to US202 is located) the night before they were trucked out (and found out that other railfans also had the same ideas lol).