If I ran Transit for one day...

[Sam92]

On 9/13/2023 at 9:29 AM, Busjack said:

I don't see why anyone from Hegwisch or South Chicago neighborhoods would want to go to Pershing, nor, after a long trip to the area around 71st, have to go to 35th instead of 69th to catch a train.

Any deficiency with regard to #1 could be remedied by bringing back Drexel-Hyde Park, except south of 35th is too close to Cottage Grove and the Indiana routing was too close to State and King Dr. and the Green Line. I never figured out why there should have been service on streets such as Michigan/Indiana, Washington, and Lake just because they went through the Loop.

Considering the underused Green Line, I'll repeat my suggestion that frequency on 3 and 4 should be cut north of 63rd, and, in connection with the Gray Line proposal, that frequency on Jeffery be cut north of 71st, and the riders transfer to rail, but the passengers are unwilling to stomach that (as indicated by the extension of 4 to 115th and the explanation accompanying the reinstatement of X4 without cutting 4).

On your point as far as Hedgewich riders. How about this? 95 gets extended via 30 routing to Hedgewich keeping a close red line connection thus allowing the south Chicago portion to be cut. 39 would end at 79th/South shore since it would still retain what would get abandoned cutting the 6 and sending 28 downtown full time. Even though there would be space to turn a replacement route for the south shore to lake park segment on the former 6 the 39 proposal gives a better alternative and less transfers to bronzeville vs taking 71 to cottage plus avoids having duplicate service on Indiana that reviving the 1 would cause. As for your green line proposal, I'd say leave the 4 as is since it doesn't duplicate the green as much as the 3. Since the Green splits frequencys south of Garfield I'd say have the 3s terminate at Garfield since the 7-8 min headways from Garfield vs 15 min at 63rd would give more incentive. Otherwise you'd have to cut the Ashland Branch and send those trains to Cottage to make the frequency competitive enough to lessen the blow of less 3 service. Also what do you do about the reduction of service for the 35th to downtown ridership on the 3 which is one of the strongest portions of the 3? You'd have to send 4 back to King Drive to compensate which shouldn't be too much of a big deal seeing as 29 and 3/4 wouldn't be too far away from Indiana ?. Here's my thinking....pulling the 6 off Jeffery gave Jeffery riders a quicker ride via 14 but the 6 still suffers delays due to the section south of 63rd and that honestly fits better connected to a local route giving Hyde park more reliable buses to downtown since some 28s would start NB at 63rd which is really what helps keep Hyde park service to downtown on time. 

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, Sam92 said:

On your point as far as Hedgewich riders. How about this? 95 gets extended via 30 routing to Hedgewich keeping a close red line connection thus allowing the south Chicago portion to be cut. 39 would end at 79th/South shore since it would still retain what would get abandoned cutting the 6 and sending 28 downtown full time. Even though there would be space to turn a replacement route for the south shore to lake park segment on the former 6 the 39 proposal gives a better alternative and less transfers to bronzeville vs taking 71 to cottage plus avoids having duplicate service on Indiana that reviving the 1 would cause. As for your green line proposal, I'd say leave the 4 as is since it doesn't duplicate the green as much as the 3. Since the Green splits frequencys south of Garfield I'd say have the 3s terminate at Garfield since the 7-8 min headways from Garfield vs 15 min at 63rd would give more incentive. Otherwise you'd have to cut the Ashland Branch and send those trains to Cottage to make the frequency competitive enough to lessen the blow of less 3 service. Also what do you do about the reduction of service for the 35th to downtown ridership on the 3 which is one of the strongest portions of the 3? You'd have to send 4 back to King Drive to compensate which shouldn't be too much of a big deal seeing as 29 and 3/4 wouldn't be too far away from Indiana ?. Here's my thinking....pulling the 6 off Jeffery gave Jeffery riders a quicker ride via 14 but the 6 still suffers delays due to the section south of 63rd and that honestly fits better connected to a local route giving Hyde park more reliable buses to downtown since some 28s would start NB at 63rd which is really what helps keep Hyde park service to downtown on time. 

I sill don't get 39 to South Shore, nor wh y someone in South Shore would want to go to Bronzeville.

Garfield is probably a better alternative to 63rd, if the bus turnaround is still there. My assumption was that the Green Line was close enough to King Drive. I might be amenable to 3 N&S and 4 N&S segments, especially since there is X4. However, I noted that they won't happen, because the passengers won't stomach it.

Starting some sort of Hyde Park service at 63rd/Stony Island is not new; 1 Drexel-Hyde Park, after the South Shore segment was cut, did that, as did some 6-Jackson Park Express buses.

[Sam92]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

I sill don't get 39 to South Shore, nor wh y someone in South Shore would want to go to Bronzeville.

 

Because it was pointed out that 39's ridership is heavy on the eastern end but making a simple 39E would be too short. So I split the 39 to give 39W a lesser headway and weekday only service to address that. I notice 1: there's a lot of transfer activity between 3/4 and 15 at 51st, and at 71st going east coming from areas that the 39 would pass through so we eliminate transfers and attract some ridership from that. 2: we're talking about trouble on the 15, 39 running on 47th between cottage and lake park provides an alternative plus again eliminates the transfer for people over east that would have to transfer at cottage or king to go between 49th and 35th. 3: a lot of people from east travel to the west side so instead of having to take a bus to the red line then transfer to Blue. 

[Sam92]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

 

Garfield is probably a better alternative to 63rd, if the bus turnaround is still there. My assumption was that the Green Line was close enough to King Drive. I might be amenable to 3 N&S and 4 N&S segments, especially since there is X4. However, I noted that they won't happen, because the passengers won't stomach it.

 

A 3 king drive and a 3A South King drive overlap could work without passengers tripping too much if the 3A terminated at Garfield where the trains are at a decent enough headway. reduce the 3 down by about half but keep the route untouched so people don't complain about a split route. 3A could run between Walmart (109th/Doty) and Garfield green to have the effect of more service south of 63rd you're asking for. The only people you'd have to worry about at that point is the king drive ridership between 35th to Cermak which rerouting the 4 to it's original routing could solve 

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

I sill don't get 39 to South Shore, nor wh y someone in South Shore would want to go to Bronzeville.

Garfield is probably a better alternative to 63rd, if the bus turnaround is still there. My assumption was that the Green Line was close enough to King Drive. I might be amenable to 3 N&S and 4 N&S segments, especially since there is X4. However, I noted that they won't happen, because the passengers won't stomach it.

Starting some sort of Hyde Park service at 63rd/Stony Island is not new; 1 Drexel-Hyde Park, after the South Shore segment was cut, did that, as did some 6-Jackson Park Express buses.

 

5 minutes ago, Sam92 said:

Because it was pointed out that 39's ridership is heavy on the eastern end but making a simple 39E would be too short. So I split the 39 to give 39W a lesser headway and weekday only service to address that. I notice 1: there's a lot of transfer activity between 3/4 and 15 at 51st, and at 71st going east coming from areas that the 39 would pass through so we eliminate transfers and attract some ridership from that. 2: we're talking about trouble on the 15, 39 running on 47th between cottage and lake park provides an alternative plus again eliminates the transfer for people over east that would have to transfer at cottage or king to go between 49th and 35th. 3: a lot of people from east travel to the west side so instead of having to take a bus to the red line then transfer to Blue. 

TBH, I don't think the 39 Pershing to South shore is a good idea at all.  The reason for 3/4 transfers to 15 at 51st is primarily because of people wanting to travel along E Hyde Park.   There are better alternatives to reach South Shore given the long headways of the 15.  The only reason the 15 somewhat works is that it is also a Hyde Park to Jeffery connector that primarily benefits Kenwood students  and others.   This effectively replaced the 6 Jeffery Express and doubled as a Hyde Park to Red Line connection replacing the eastern portion of the 51.

[Busjack]

3 hours ago, Sam92 said:

there's a lot of transfer activity between 3/4 and 15 at 51st, and at 71st going east

As @artthouwill pointed out, 15 is basically there because various routes on Hyde Park Blvd. were cut. Very few people you described were transferring to 3 or 4 to go to 39th. Maybe to Mariano's, but that's about it.

There's no reason to inconvenience numerous riders just to correct a supposed imbalance. Just put on a short turn bus. I suppose that 39 westbound is light because riders use the Orange Line.

[Busjack]

MTA routes I'd like to see:

Lavender subway line to LaGuardia: Boston, Cleveland, Chicago, and others have rapid transit service to the airport. MTA sez:

Option 1: Take the M60 Select Bus from uptown Manhattan {in short, no raid transit, but BRT, something that Chicago is not supposed to use)

Option 2: Take the subway to Queens and then take the LaGuardia Link Q70 bus.{inconvenient transfer]

Option 3: Take a LIRR train to Queens and then take the LaGuardia Link Q70 bus. Fare: $5 (off-peak hours) or $7 (peak hours) for most riders with CityTicket.{plus premium fare that the NYC Gray Line advocate says shouldn't be expected to ride the ME).

"Allow plenty of time. Depending on your route and what traffic is like, your trip could take up to an hour or more." Blue Line is something like 45 minutes.

There's AirTrain to JFK, but subway and AT fare is $11.25.

 

 

 

[Busjack]

MTA routes I'd like to see:

Since someone from NY said something about LRV instead of BRT, here it is:

On the subject on remaining LRVs, sources such as Middleton, The time of the Trolley, indicate that places such as Cleveland and Newark now have LRVs because each had a ROW or subway and was able to get discarded Minneapolis PCC cars. Pittsburgh and Boston are similar, except they had their own cars. I don't know what the relationship is between Metrolinx, TTC, and GO Transit,* but the Metrolinx construction is, again, median or subway.

---------

*I could have read this first.

[Busjack]

PANYNJ Facilities I'd Like to See:

A new bus terminal for trips from Texas. It would need a direct connection to the LIRR Montauk Branch.

Or maybe there should be simply a high-speed train between El Paso and NYC, with 12.5kV catenary, all paid for by NY, since the rail car assembly plants are there.

@artthouwill: You said Brandon Johnson is already the worst mayor, but Eric Adams seems up there too.

[artthouwill]

16 minutes ago, Busjack said:

PANYNJ Facilities I'd Like to See:

A new bus terminal for trips from Texas. It would need a direct connection to the LIRR Montauk Branch.

Or maybe there should be simply a high-speed train between El Paso and NYC, with 12.5kV catenary, all paid for by NY, since the rail car assembly plants are there.

@artthouwill: You said Brandon Johnson is already the worst mayor, but Eric Adams seems up there too.

For sure.  This post is hilariious!

[Sam92]

9 hours ago, artthouwill said:

For sure.  This post is hilariious!

 

9 hours ago, Busjack said:

PANYNJ Facilities I'd Like to See:

A new bus terminal for trips from Texas. It would need a direct connection to the LIRR Montauk Branch.

Or maybe there should be simply a high-speed train between El Paso and NYC, with 12.5kV catenary, all paid for by NY, since the rail car assembly plants are there.

@artthouwill: You said Brandon Johnson is already the worst mayor, but Eric Adams seems up there too.

I suggest you use the Metro North railroad station in NY for your terminal. They could get rid of the Crestwood and north white plains express runs and just run all locals at a rapid transit frequency to add capacity in the area thus reducing the costs and need of upgrading subway signals to more subway trains ?

[artthouwill]

2 hours ago, Sam92 said:

 

I suggest you use the Metro North railroad station in NY for your terminal. They could get rid of the Crestwood and north white plains express runs and just run all locals at a rapid transit frequency to add capacity in the area thus reducing the costs and need of upgrading subway signals to more subway trains ?

How dare you take away my Crestwood North White Plains Express!  White i can appreciate accessing the Gun Hill station, making ALL those local stops just takes too much time.   I can't support this drastic change!!!

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, artthouwill said:

How dare you take away my Crestwood North White Plains Express!  White i can appreciate accessing the Gun Hill station, making ALL those local stops just takes too much time.   I can't support this drastic change!!!

I was thinking The Hamptons, based on a cooking show "George Hirsch Lifestyle" on Channel 11.3 which ended with "if I can do it, you can do it." Sure, if you're a rich chef on Long Island. But I'm sure he doesn't want to ride with Doug Heffernan.

[artthouwill]

9 minutes ago, Busjack said:

I was thinking The Hamptons, based on a cooking show "George Hirsch Lifestyle" on Channel 11.3 which ended with "if I can do it, you can do it." Sure, if you're a rich chef on Long Island. But I'm sure he doesn't want to ride with Doug Heffernan.

Maybe weekend and holiday service for a premium fare?  No R211s,!

[Busjack]

16 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

Maybe weekend and holiday service for a premium fare?  No R211s,!

Someone mentioned something about a 1-seat ride, but in Queens, it's a no seat ride.

[Sam92]

11 hours ago, Busjack said:

Someone mentioned something about a 1-seat ride, but in Queens, it's a no seat ride.

 

11 hours ago, artthouwill said:

Maybe weekend and holiday service for a premium fare?  No R211s,!

 

16 hours ago, Sam92 said:

 

I suggest you use the Metro North railroad station in NY for your terminal. They could get rid of the Crestwood and north white plains express runs and just run all locals at a rapid transit frequency to add capacity in the area thus reducing the costs and need of upgrading subway signals to more subway trains ?

Close Meredith depot or move runs into that depot to reduce the amount of weekday-only work. It helped here back in spring 2008 so it clearly should help NY balance swings and consolidate artics. ? Better solution? 

[Rail Introvert]

Regarding 7900-8949: I don't have a say-so as to which Nova goes to which garage, but if it were up to me, here's how I'd have it:
 

103rd: 7900-7949, 8250-8299, 8600-8649
77th: 7950-7999, 8300-8349, 8650-8699
74th: 8000-8049, 8350-8399, 8700-8749
Kedzie: 8050-8099, 8400-8449, 8750-8799
Chicago: 8100-8149, 8450-8499, 8800-8849
North Park: 8150-8199, 8500-8549, 8850-8899
Forest Glen: 8200-8249, 8550-8599, 8900-8949

[Busjack]

15 hours ago, Nitro said:

Well the CTA is the second most funded agency next to the MTA. Despite what you believe get ready for it. Miami–Dade Transit & MARTA are doing it. LA Metro and WMATA are ready for it and you'll either take it or leave it in the upcoming years.

Using this spurious logic, New York is going to go to a color coded subway line system. It's only 30 to 60 years behind everyone else in doing so. Chicago ,MARTA, MBTA,  and WMATA have it. It's reputed to be a boon to those not conversant in English, and probably also to New Yawkers with perceptual or cognitive issues.

For that matter, NYC should do away with its nonsensical "take the base street for each Avenue, then divide by 20" house numbering system. and be like most everywhere else and have 59th St. 5900 North. Chicago made the change in 1909, so you are only 114 years behind the times.

[strictures]

29 minutes ago, Busjack said:

For that matter, NYC should do away with its nonsensical "take the base street for each Avenue, then divide by 20" house numbering system. and be like most everywhere else and have 59th St. 5900 North. Chicago made the change in 1909, so you are only 114 years behind the times.

Do the Manhattan phone books still have a page at the front with instructions on how to find each cross street in Manhattan from the main N/S streets?  An absolutely insane street numbering system, where one street has a different numbering system that the next parallel street.

BTW, earlier this year, The Economist Magazine published an article which stated that Chicago has the most logical street numbering system on Earth, even with the weird numbering of the N/S streets from Madison south to 31st.  I think it was around March they did it.

[artthouwill]

2 hours ago, strictures said:

Do the Manhattan phone books still have a page at the front with instructions on how to find each cross street in Manhattan from the main N/S streets?  An absolutely insane street numbering system, where one street has a different numbering system that the next parallel street.

BTW, earlier this year, The Economist Magazine published an article which stated that Chicago has the most logical street numbering system on Earth, even with the weird numbering of the N/S streets from Madison south to 31st.  I think it was around March they did it.

If I remember correctly,  the North South Streets are Avenues.   Gunny thing is that Fifth Avenue is the East West divider. Streets west of 5th Ave go up in number with Lexington in there and the streets East of Fifth Avenue go down with streets including Park Avenue.   Broadway is a diagonal street that runs NW ( more North than West).  

The numbered streets run East West and alternate one way directions.  However,  Manhattan doesn't exactly line up with the other Burroughs.  It is an amazing world below Manhattan when you consider 6th, 7th.and 7

8th Ave subways, Grand Central Station abd Penn Station  all underground.  But the addresses outside of downtown are nonsense  

 

 

 

[strictures]

4 hours ago, artthouwill said:

8th Ave subways, Grand Central Station abd Penn Station  all underground.  But the addresses outside of downtown are nonsense  

 

 

 

Grand Central Station is the subway adjacent to Grand Central Terminal, the huge train station built by Vanderbilt.

[Busjack]

7 hours ago, strictures said:

even with the weird numbering of the N/S streets from Madison south to 31st. 

There are various theories for it,* but the essential point is that in Chicago, you get off at Roosevelt whether you are going to 1200 S. State, Michigan, Wabash or Dearborn.

Only place where the numbering breaks down is Archer roughly between Kostner and Naragansett. Should have been W, but the convention is to number diagonal streets N-S.

* Streetblog's theory is that short blocks count on the south side, but not on the north. Encyclopedia of Chicago has the more comprehensive explanation that numbers were assigned to south side streets well before the Brennan plan was imposed elsewhere.

 

[artthouwill]

4 minutes ago, Busjack said:

There are various theories for it, but the essential point is that in Chicago, you get off at Roosevelt whether you are going to 1200 S. State, Michigan, Wabash or Van Buren.

Only place where the numbering breaks down is Archer roughly between Kostner and Naragansett. Should have been W, but the convention is to number diagonal streets N-S.

Ogden starts off N Ogden from. CHICAGO to Madison,  then becomes W Ogden  south of Madison.  South of Roosevelt it does start to become more east west like  

Minneapolis for the most part is logical with the exception being along the Mississippi River and University of Minnesota area.  Downtown is  diagonal compared to the rest of the city.  Numbered Streets run north south and are east of Nicollet on the south side of the city.  Numbered Avenues run east west on the north side of the city.  

[Tcmetro]

Salt Lake City just decided to skip street names in most cases. They do have three streets named Temple though.

[Busjack]

9 hours ago, Tcmetro said:

Salt Lake City just decided to skip street names in most cases. They do have three streets named Temple though.

I bet they don't have any named Synagogue, though.?

As far as I know, Washington D.C. has the first planned street grid system, designed by L’Enfant, with the odd (to Chicagoans) NE, NW, SE, and SW addresses (but subsequently used elsewhere) and, basically (in the central area) only diagonal streets having names (again the oddity of the locals spelling I Street "Eye Street").