RTA Governance

[Busjack]

While Dupage brings in 78.3 million.

I haven't heard of any new service or anyone wanting more frequent service in Dupage.

Other then the Addison to Schaumburg where there is a grant.

I'm sure Pace would have done a study and figure out the cost.

That usually depends on whether there is a source to match a CMAQ or JARC grant, such as for 714 or the I-90 projects.

Of course,there are other things that Pace supports, such as Ride DuPage and other municipal projects, and paratransit. The main provider is, of course, the 3 Metra lines.

It was said about 2006 that McHenry was underpaying, based on the cost of the UP NW line, even though it has minimal fixed bus service.I doubt, though, that DuPage is underpaying.

The sales tax (at least in the collar counties) generaly goes to operating rather than capital, anyway, so new projects are fairly irrelevant.

[MetroShadow]

While Dupage brings in 78.3 million.

I haven't heard of any new service or anyone wanting more frequent service in Dupage.

Other then the Addison to Schaumburg where there is a grant.

I'm sure Pace would have done a study and figure out the cost.

The demand really isn't much to begin with, but (1) as Jack mentioned, you have smaller intra-community programs that are supported (including RideShare), and (2) you also cannot match that service if there are no funds available--because It definitely isn't like the RTA days where there would be at least 1.5 routes for every other suburb around.

[mkohut]

That usually depends on whether there is a source to match a CMAQ or JARC grant, such as for 714 or the I-90 projects.

Of course,there are other things that Pace supports, such as Ride DuPage and other municipal projects, and paratransit. The main provider is, of course, the 3 Metra lines.

It was said about 2006 that McHenry was underpaying, based on the cost of the UP NW line, even though it has minimal fixed bus service.I doubt, though, that DuPage is underpaying.

The sales tax (at least in the collar counties) generaly goes to operating rather than capital, anyway, so new projects are fairly irrelevant.

Here is a link of the New Routes Pace wants

http://www.illinoistollway.com/documents/10157/1404518/2013+90+Transit_FactSheet

608 is the Addison to Schuamburg

[MetroShadow]

Here is a link of the New Routes Pace wants

http://www.illinoistollway.com/documents/10157/1404518/2013+90+Transit_FactSheet

608 is the Addison to Schuamburg

Still three years out. While addresses the need to go to Schaumburg (which was once covered by the defunct 655), there should be some attention brought to 616 and get more people there.

Or a Central DuPage restructuring.

[mkohut]

There is a update on the RTA Lawsuit

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/23912980-418/illinois-supreme-court-rules-to-close-sales-tax-loopholes.html

[Busjack]

There is a update on the RTA Lawsuit

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/23912980-418/illinois-supreme-court-rules-to-close-sales-tax-loopholes.html

Looks like they got a winner.

This must have been separate from the suit with all the pleading problems still pending in Cook County Circuit Court, since it somehow got to the Illinois Supreme Court more quickly than what I thought.

The official citation is here. Apparently that case was expedited because the Illinois Dept. of Revenue secured payment, and Hartney sued for a refund downstate. The lower courts went along with the scheme but the Illinois Supreme Court did not. Update: On rereading this though, it apparently only applies going forward, since DoR was bound by its invalid regulations, so Hartney gets its refund.

The two interesting things are:

• The retailer's occupation tax is that, not a sales tax, and the situs is where the retailer has significant business activities, not where title to goods passes.
• Apparently the retailer's occupation tax is abbreviated ROT. Fitting.

Thank you for finding this.

[mkohut]

Looks like they got a winner.

This must have been separate from the suit with all the pleading problems still pending in Cook County Circuit Court, since it somehow got to the Illinois Supreme Court more quickly than what I thought.

The official citation is here. Apparently that case was expedited because the Illinois Dept. of Revenue secured payment, and Hartney sued for a refund downstate. The lower courts went along with the scheme but the Illinois Supreme Court did not. Update: On rereading this though, it apparently only applies going forward, since DoR was bound by its invalid regulations, so Hartney gets its refund.

The two interesting things are:

• The retailer's occupation tax is that, not a sales tax, and the situs is where the retailer has significant business activities, not where title to goods passes.
• Apparently the retailer's occupation tax is abbreviated ROT. Fitting.

Thank you for finding this.

Your Welcome Glad to share the infor

[Busjack]

The Daily Herald has the predictable prediction about RTA reform legislation. I'm not even betting that much.

[Busjack]

I see that the Fitzgerald commission is belatedly releasing some draft reports, but despite the blaring Tribune headline, has so far only discovered the obvious.

[Busjack]

I just saw on the home page a Sun-Times story that the Fitzgerald task force is about to recommend something, and concluded that anything was better than the current mess. Two ideas were floated-a single MTA type board, or abolishing the RTA board and having some "transit czar" in IDOT assume its functions.

Emanuel bollixing the discretionary fund problem was noted.

However, the problem I see with giving the governor more appointments is that NONE of Quinn's appointees meet the statutory requirement of "persons of recognized business ability."

The other problem, of course, is whether, if this gets to the legislature, some political backroom deal is done to water it down, like was done in the 2008 RTA legislation.

There is also a Tribune story that the RTA is going after American Airlines for sales tax. However, there is one problem obvious on the face of the story that, as usual, the Tribune couldn't figure out--if the RTA waited because AA was in bankruptcy, any such debt was discharged in bankruptcy unless the discharge was fraudulent. If RTA wanted its money then, it should have filed a claim in bankruptcy court. Second, the Illinois Supreme Court decision that ruled that the regulations were invalid also said that the taxes still were not owed because they were abated due to companies' reliance on those regulations. Hence, this suit is a smokescreen.

[garmon757]

I just saw on the home page a Sun-Times story that the Fitzgerald task force is about to recommend something, and concluded that anything was better than the current mess. Two ideas were floated-a single MTA type board, or abolishing the RTA board and having some "transit czar" in IDOT assume its functions.

Emanuel bollixing the discretionary fund problem was noted.

However, the problem I see with giving the governor more appointments is that NONE of Quinn's appointees meet the statutory requirement of "persons of recognized business ability."

The other problem, of course, is whether, if this gets to the legislature, some political backroom deal is done to water it down, like was done in the 2008 RTA legislation.

There is also a Tribune story that the RTA is going after American Airlines for sales tax. However, there is one problem obvious on the face of the story that, as usual, the Tribune couldn't figure out--if the RTA waited because AA was in bankruptcy, any such debt was discharged in bankruptcy unless the discharge was fraudulent. If RTA wanted its money then, it should have filed a claim in bankruptcy court. Second, the Illinois Supreme Court decision that ruled that the regulations were invalid also said that the taxes still were not owed because they were abated due to companies' reliance on those regulations. Hence, this suit is a smokescreen.

I like Fitzgerald but I'm trying to get a better understanding what AA have anything to do with RTA. They're really desperate to seek money in a deplorable, vindictive manner.

[Busjack]

I like Fitzgerald but I'm trying to get a better understanding what AA have anything to do with RTA. They're really desperate to seek money in a deplorable, vindictive manner.

If you mean American Airlines, it, along with other airlines, Plass Appliances, and Hartney Fuel Co., among many others had a policy of "accepting" orders at some "office" outside the six-county area and thus claimed that the rate of retailers' occupation tax* charged in the community where the "office" was located (such as Sycamore, Kankakee, Channahon, or Mark, Illinois) applied, rather than the rate that applied where the product was actually delivered. If the fuel were actually sold to American Airlines in Cook County (the location of O'Hare), in addition to paying Illinois retailer's occupation tax (6.25%), AA would also have to pay Cook County (.75%), the RTA (1%), and 1.25% to the City of Chicago (total of 9.25%, according to the Illinois Dept. of Revenue). Besides that, the outlying towns were rebating their sales tax. Even if the fuel were delivered in Bensenville, AA would have to pay a .5% RTA tax.

*Note, despite what everyone thinks, Illinois does not have a sales tax, but a retailer's occupation tax, and I am assuming that the first .25% of the RTA tax is collected by the state, rather than the RTA.

BTW, if anyone wants to read the Hartney decision, the official version is here.

This isn't vindictive, but since the Illinois Supreme Court seems to have settled the matter, stupid.

[jajuan]

If you mean American Airlines, it, along with other airlines, Plass Appliances, and Hartney Fuel Co., among many others had a policy of "accepting" orders at some "office" outside the six-county area and thus claimed that the rate of retailers' occupation tax* charged in the community where the "office" was located (such as Sycamore, Kankakee, Channahon, or Mark, Illinois) applied, rather than the rate that applied where the product was actually delivered. If the fuel were actually sold to American Airlines in Cook County (the location of O'Hare), in addition to paying Illinois retailer's occupation tax (6.25%), AA would also have to pay Cook County (.75%), the RTA (1%), and 1.25% to the City of Chicago (total of 9.25%, according to the Illinois Dept. of Revenue). Besides that, the outlying towns were rebating their sales tax. Even if the fuel were delivered in Bensenville, AA would have to pay a .5% RTA tax.

*Note, despite what everyone thinks, Illinois does not have a sales tax, but a retailer's occupation tax, and I am assuming that the first .25% of the RTA tax is collected by the state, rather than the RTA.

BTW, if anyone wants to read the Hartney decision, the official version is here.

This isn't vindictive, but since the Illinois Supreme Court seems to have settled the matter, stupid.

Yes I agree, it's not vindictive but it is stupid. Not just because the Illinois Supreme Court seems to have settled the issue, but also because, as you stated in your other post above, RTA should have filed a claim while American Airlines was in the midst of bankruptcy which would have given them a better chance at getting something since that type of bankruptcy proceeding is meant as a means to allow a company to restructure itself so that it can pay off its debts owed provided its creditors agree to negotiate to a settled amount and timetable if I'm understanding the law correctly. Is that the gist of it Busjack, or are there some elements there that I missed or maybe misinterpreted?

[Busjack]

... Is that the gist of it Busjack, or are there some elements there that I missed or maybe misinterpreted?

That's essentially it. But the question is whether lawyers retained by Madigan's son in law at the RTA are that dumb, or just wanted the publicity.

[jajuan]

That's essentially it. But the question is whether lawyers retained by Madigan's son in law at the RTA are that dumb, or just wanted the publicity.

Although both scenarios are bad, let's hope it's more they're stoking their own egos with the publicity and not because they're actually that dumb. Even though I'm not in the legal profession, I could still see that it would have been better to make their move while American Airlines was in bankruptcy.

[garmon757]

That's essentially it. But the question is whether lawyers retained by Madigan's son in law at the RTA are that dumb, or just wanted the publicity.

Although both scenarios are bad, let's hope it's more they're stoking their own egos with the publicity and not because they're actually that dumb. Even though I'm not in the legal profession, I could still see that it would have been better to make their move while American Airlines was in bankruptcy.

Conspiracy guys??? It has to be more than what's been stated about this. It has to be a key piece to this scenario why RTA didn't take advantage while AA was in bankruptcy. This state is getting more deploring than I ever thought it was.

[Busjack]

Conspiracy guys??? It has to be more than what's been stated about this. It has to be a key piece to this scenario why RTA didn't take advantage while AA was in bankruptcy. This state is getting more deploring than I ever thought it was.

The reason that is apparent from the article is that a suit is stayed during bankruptcy. For instance, when the unions tried to fight the Detroit bankruptcy, they sued in state court to prevent the state overseer from filing for bankruptcy, but the bankruptcy court stayed that, making the state court judge look foolish. Thus, if the RTA had sued AA in Cook County Circuit Court at the same time it sued everyone else, it would have gone nowhere. The remedy would have been to file a claim in bankruptcy court.

Now, there may be some technicality that the subsidiary that owed the retailers' occupational tax wasn't discharged in bankruptcy (sort of like that The Chicago National League Ball Club, Inc. had to go through bankruptcy, but only to assure that it was sold to Ricketts clean of the Tribune Company's bankruptcy), but even if that isn't the case, the RTA's lawyers still seem dumb, in that (1) its other cases brought by the RTA are hung up at the pleading stage, and (2) the matter seems resolved by the Illinois Supreme Court, in saying that the regulations are invalid, but because of them, back taxes cannot be collected, Thus, starting approximately Nov. 2013, retailers have to comply with new regulations that conform to the legislation.

[garmon757]

The reason that is apparent from the article is that a suit is stayed during bankruptcy. For instance, when the unions tried to fight the Detroit bankruptcy, they sued in state court to prevent the state overseer from filing for bankruptcy, but the bankruptcy court stayed that, making the state court judge look foolish. Thus, if the RTA had sued AA in Cook County Circuit Court at the same time it sued everyone else, it would have gone nowhere. The remedy would have been to file a claim in bankruptcy court.

Now, there may be some technicality that the subsidiary that owed the retailers' occupational tax wasn't discharged in bankruptcy (sort of like that The Chicago National League Ball Club, Inc. had to go through bankruptcy, but only to assure that it was sold to Ricketts clean of the Tribune Company's bankruptcy), but even if that isn't the case, the RTA's lawyers still seem dumb, in that (1) its other cases brought by the RTA are hung up at the pleading stage, and (2) the matter seems resolved by the Illinois Supreme Court, in saying that the regulations are invalid, but because of them, back taxes cannot be collected, Thus, starting approximately Nov. 2013, retailers have to comply with new regulations that conform to the legislation.

So pretty much you're trying to say that RTA had a golden opportunity to sue AA without having the Supreme Court involved and it's becoming by far disconcerting by all means?

[Busjack]

So pretty much you're trying to say that RTA had a golden opportunity to sue AA without having the Supreme Court involved and it's becoming by far disconcerting by all means?

No, that's not what I am saying. I am saying that the RTA had filed a bunch of suits (but not against AA) before the Illinois Supreme Court ruled in the Hartney Fuel Oil Co. case, but it seems to me that once the Illinois Supreme Court decided the Hartney Fuel Oil Co. case, to which the RTA was a party, that resolved the legal issue, and there doesn't appear to be a need to pursue the other suits.

Clearly, the Hartney case says that the preexisting regulations were invalid, but the merchants can rely on them in not having to pay back taxes.

[garmon757]

No, that's not what I am saying. I am saying that the RTA had filed a bunch of suits (but not against AA) before the Illinois Supreme Court ruled in the Hartney Fuel Oil Co. case, but it seems to me that once the Illinois Supreme Court decided the Hartney Fuel Oil Co. case, to which the RTA was a party, that resolved the legal issue, and there doesn't appear to be a need to pursue the other suits.

Clearly, the Hartney case says that the preexisting regulations were invalid, but the merchants can rely on them in not having to pay back taxes.

Oh I see. Thanks.

[artthouwill]

There is a Tribune article: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-transit-task-force-met-20140313,0,6282303.story

Essentially there is talk of eliminating the RTA and either replacing it with an MTA like superagency (CTA, Metra, Pace combined) or placing the three agencies under IDOT control.

Mike Payne will not give up the Gray Line idea. smh.

[Busjack]

,,,

Mike Payne will not give up the Gray Line idea. smh.

Essentially he can't figure out that (1) under the current arrangement it is dead, any last chance it has being obliterated by the weird joint ticket program during the Red Line South job and (2) if either of these two plans were implemented, there would be one agency or agency head who could actually implement service integration. I suggested (I think on the CTA Tattler, but maybe on the Sun-Times) "why don't you approach the Fitzgerald Task Force," but I don't think he figured it out.

BTW, he signed his last Sun-Times comment "Mike Payne, Lisle," so if he is the champion of Chatham, apparently not enough to want to live there.

[jajuan]

Essentially he can't figure out that (1) under the current arrangement it is dead, any last chance it has being obliterated by the weird joint ticket program during the Red Line South job and (2) if either of these two plans were implemented, there would be one agency or agency head who could actually implement service integration. I suggested (I think on the CTA Tattler, but maybe on the Sun-Times) "why don't you approach the Fitzgerald Task Force," but I don't think he figured it out.

BTW, he signed his last Sun-Times comment "Mike Payne, Lisle," so if he is the champion of Chatham, apparently not enough to want to live there.

Or perhaps he's not Chatham's chosen champion and at this point he's even more the self proclaimed champion within his own head than than he ever was before. He wouldn't be the first to let his ego outgrow his original cause.

[Busjack]

I guess that the RTA's problems are solved now that they have an interim director who is cute (Daily Herald). However, she seems to take credit for achievements for which the RTA only had a tangential role, which may be part of the problem.

[jajuan]

Not sure about the comments on her looks, but the article does say she has experience as a transportation professional, something that a lot of us, yourself included, have said there hasn't been enough of in recent years among the local transit agencies.