Pace/CTA North Shore Coordination Plan

[Zol87]

​The issue I raised before is what you are going to do if CTA pulls a similar Doomsday plan as it tried in 2007 with if "it doesn't run Sunday it doesn't run at all." You are then stuck. CTA has no political incentive to serve you.

Sure you would have some overlap in any event, but wouldn't it make sense to have Pace run 201, or would you rather be at Emanuel's mercy rather than served by a board that has a North Shore representative?

And you certainly haven't refuted what I said about the status quo making it more inconvenient in suburbs past Old Orchard.

​True, but Evanston and Skokie are more urban suburbs since they border the city unlike Wilmette. I agree that the CTA buses wouldn't really have a reason to go past Old Orchard anyway.

[Busjack]

​True, but Evanston and Skokie are more urban suburbs since they border the city unlike Wilmette. I agree that the CTA buses wouldn't really have a reason to go past Old Orchard anyway.

​It isn't that the CTA buses have a reason to go past Old Orchard. As I said previous times, the issue is that because Pace decided in 2004 to withdraw from where CTA had overrun its routes in 2003, service became more inconvenient for those living past Old Orchard. I expect to comment on that whenever the survey asks for input.

The weekday ridership reports sure do not show urban density ridership on the CTA routes at issue:

54A 809
97 3000
201 2000
205 892
206 857

If you were going to make any argument about ridership density, it would support CTA taking over South Division, but except for a proposed restructuring that was supposed to study CTA south territory from 79th to 159th, nobody would take that seriously.

Pace data are on RTAMS.

 

 

[Busjack]

In some cases CTA loves to encroach on Pace territory and others CTA retreats from its own territory (56A and 49A come to mind).  I suppose streamlining and eliminating duplication isn't really the priority some have made it out to be,

As I said above in this thread, Pace has an advertisement for a consultant to try to clean it up on the North Shore.

[juelzkellz]

Any restructuring always is. However, as I indicated with regard to the lowest cost carrier comment, CTA really shouldn't be operating local bus service in Evanston and Skokie. As I also implied with regard to my question about "who is funding this," I'm somewhat surprised that Pace is handling this, instead of CTA just saying that it is dropping that service and leaving it to Pace to pick it up (which was its stance with regard to the Crowd Reduction Plan, except that, except for 17/317, that was primarily overlapping service in Chicago).

Exactly, Last time I checked CTA was called the CHICAGO Transit Authority. If Evanston and Skokie want public transit, let them handle it. Last time I checked, Evanston and Skokie are exactly impoverished communities...

[Busjack]

Exactly, Last time I checked CTA was called the CHICAGO Transit Authority. If Evanston and Skokie want public transit, let them handle it. Last time I checked, Evanston and Skokie are exactly impoverished communities...

There isn't a question about that the municipalities should be paying for transit. The City of Harvey doesn't pay for transit either. The question is which carrier should be providing it.

Your comment also implies that people in suburban Cook County are not paying RTA sales tax. Evanston and Skokie aren't Kendall County, In fact, one should consider the reverse--that the CHICAGO Transit Authority gets about 35% of the sales tax collected in suburban Cook County.

Finally, you seemed to miss that Pace published this solicitation.

[juelzkellz]

There isn't a question about that the municipalities should be paying for transit. The City of Harvey doesn't pay for transit either. The question is which carrier should be providing it.

Your comment also implies that people in suburban Cook County are not paying RTA sales tax. Evanston and Skokie aren't Kendall County, In fact, one should consider the reverse--that the CHICAGO Transit Authority gets about 35% of the sales tax collected in suburban Cook County.

Finally, you seemed to miss that Pace published this solicitation.

Ok well to be clear, CTA should cover the city and Pace and Metra should cover the suburbs. If the suburbs want CTA service, they can pay extra for it. (I.E. If Evanston and Willmette want the Purple Line, they can pay the full cost for it.) All I'm asking for is clear boundaries, it seems like there are none these days.

Edited August 11, 2015 by juelzkellz

[Busjack]

... If Evanston and Willmette want the Purple Line, they can pay the full cost for it....

So, you are in favor of the about 35% of the RTA sales tax collected in the Cook County suburbs that goes to the CTA being taken away from the CTA and given to Metra and Pace? CHICAGO should pay 100% of the cost of transit in Chicago, then. CHICAGO should also pay the cost of the Pace buses that now serve parts of the city that Claypool ceded during the Crowd Reduction plan. ZERO percent of the first 1% of the RTA sales tax collected in the city goes to Metra and Pace. If Chicago wants Metra service to Edgebrook, Hegewisch, and most significantly on the Metra Eledtric and to Beverly, IT SHOULD PAY FOR IT, according to your logic.

Otherwise, you are showing that you are totally uninformed about how transit is financed in the RTA region. Read the funding formula here.

[Busjack]

This project is moving forward. The Pace contract awards page says that a consultant contract was given to Nelson/Nygaard Consulting Services.

[west towns]

I was on the 250 last week and there was a notice to take the ns passenger survey.   The 

QR code didnt work but i did lonk to the survey site.   It was basically an origins desti ations survey and asked if you want to be on their mailing list.

[Busjack]

The link is here.

There is also a button for a general public survey, but it is not live.

I found this by indirection, as it is buried on pacebus.com. Looking at the cover page, it also seems to have the same flaw as in 2005 in being limited to Evanston, Skokie, Lincolnwood, and Wilmette, while the affected routes go into Glenview. Morton Grove, and Northbrook.

[andrethebusman]

On ‎8‎/‎10‎/‎2015 at 3:15 PM, juelzkellz said:

Exactly, Last time I checked CTA was called the CHICAGO Transit Authority. If Evanston and Skokie want public transit, let them handle it. Last time I checked, Evanston and Skokie are exactly impoverished communities...

Historical trivia - in 1945 when CTA was set up, the plan was for CTA to eventually operate ALL local bus service in the Chicago area, namely Evanston Bus, Glenview Bus, American Coach, West Towns, Suburban Transit, Safeway, even minor operators like Chicago Ridge Transit and Gold Star Line. (Commuter trains were never seriously considered, as that would have required CTA dealing with the Interstate Commerce Commission, among other things) But when CTA started asking these outfits about 1950 how much they thought they were worth, the numbers were quite unrealistic. Most were still quite profitable at the time, and really did not want to sell. Motor Coach was the only one actually convinced to sell out, under threat of revocation of intercompany transfers and CTA operating bus on every one of CMC's streets on top of CMC, at a lower fare. "Made them a deal they could not refuse" so to say. If CTA had indeed expended to a regional outfit, like Pittsburgh or St Louis for instance, things today would look very, very different.

[Busjack]

8 hours ago, andrethebusman said:

 But when CTA started asking these outfits about 1950 how much they thought they were worth, the numbers were quite unrealistic.

Krambles said that the issue was bonding authority, and while he was inconsistent about what the dollars and cents requirements were, the bottom line was that the other  companies were not profitable enough to make the conditions in the original indentures to issue bonds in addition to the ones already outstanding. I assume he would know.

So, let's drop the speculation about 1949 and get back to the current topic whether the uncoordinated mess in the NS region can be fixed.

[west towns]

I was on the 250 last week and there was a notice to take the ns passenger survey.   The 

QR code didnt work but i did lonk to the survey site.   It was basically an origins desti ations survey and asked if you want to be on their mailing list.

[west towns]

Im sure they will figure out the survey link and develop an acceptable plan betweem pace and cta as they are both jointly working on the study.

[Busjack]

I just went to the Lincolnwood session. These are becoming a bigger and bigger waste of time.

Essentially all that was there were display boards, showing about what the website presentations were. I went up to the woman (apparently from CTA) in front of the study area display, made my comment that the study area was insufficient,  and she basically said "fill out a comment card."

As I was sitting at the writing table, someone asked if we had any questions, to which I raised my concern again. He asked "do you mean this will spill over into other areas?" to which I said "the last did, and if this is really to be CTA/Pace coordination, cancelling 212 and sticking it on the end of 422 should be undone." I also asked if there was any proposed service plan, and he said not until Winter 2017.

I filled out the comment card, but if the Survey Monkey for comments (other than ridership) had worked, I could have filled it out at home, instead of going to a meaningless presentation.

[west towns]

Sounds like you would complain if there was no public forum .   Do you want the study area to be bigger or smaller it wasnt clear on your post

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, west towns said:

Sounds like you would complain if there was no public forum .   Do you want the study area to be bigger or smaller it wasnt clear on your post

• No, This appeared to be a similar setup (at least as far as the hall was set up) as the Milwaukee Pulse meeting I attended a year ago, but there there was a video demonstration of what the service plan was, including how often Pulse and 270 are to run, and that 270 service would continue to Glenbrook Hospital. I described here that while it took the staff member in Niles a bit of time to figure out my angle, he did (although the answer he gave about the Niles Free Bus proposal turned out to be wrong). On the other hand, the people with whom I talked today seemed entirely clueless.
• From what I said above about ""do you mean this will spill over into other areas?" to which I said "the last did, and if this is really to be CTA/Pace coordination, cancelling 212 and sticking it on the end of 422 should be undone" maybe you are as unfamiliar with this area as Ms CTA in front of the display board (I pointed out the routes to her, but again she didn't comprehend, and when she went into some CTA gibberish, I had to say tat 422 is  Pace route), but that certainly referred to the effect of the last restructuring in areas outside of Evanston, Skokie, Lincolnwood, and Wilmette. I told the guy at the table that in 2003, I had made a similar comment, and then Pace scheduled workshops (with actual plans) in Northbrook and Morton Grove.
• Also, at the Pulse meeting, they gave a working web site as a means of public input, in addition to the comment card. As I noted above,the Survey Monkey for comments as opposed to ridership information did not work. So, if you want my opinion, they weren't really seeking public input here, although the cards were available. Whether they comprehended the message that the survey area was too small, I don't know.

[west towns]

Maybe their is no operating plan yet because they are basing on input and the plan comes next.   If i remember pulse had a few public meetings over time to show updates.

 

Maybe the smaller study area is due to the area which has cta pace overlap.

 

 

Im not familair with the 422 212 change.   What is wrong with the service?

[Busjack]

37 minutes ago, west towns said:

Im not familair with the 422 212 change.   What is wrong with the service?

Route 212 originally went via Golf to Old Orchard, and then from there to Northbrook Court.

Before the 2005 Pace restructuring, the CTA restructuring ran 205 over the same route to Old Orchard, so Pace said they would not run in competition with CTA. They canceled 212  but extended 422 past Old Orchard. However, since 422 runs on Lake in Wimette to Linden instead of Golf to Davis, that added 15-30 minutes to the running time.

37 minutes ago, west towns said:

Maybe the smaller study area is due to the area which has cta pace overlap.

I thought that the whole point was CTA/Pace overlap. This is a route where CTA infringing on a Pace route was to the detriment of Pace riders. If they are serious about dealing with CTA/Pace overlap, they should deal with this one. However, staff there seemed oblivious to that point. Also, note that route 422 was on the passenger notice. It currently does not overlap with CTA (for the reason stated above), but runs in the study area and beyond.

37 minutes ago, west towns said:

If i remember pulse had a few public meetings over time to show updates.

The one I attended was the first one.

37 minutes ago, west towns said:

Maybe their is no operating plan yet because they are basing on input and the plan comes next.  

Could be, but if they are acting obliviously to that any plan there will "spill over" outside the study area, they shouldn't be surprised when they affect the spillover and then get opposition. Like I said, Pace at least got that point in 2003. Maybe someone at Pace, other than Ms. CTA. will again come to that conclusion and hold workshops in the affected area.

[Pace831]

36 minutes ago, Busjack said:

Route 212 originally went via Golf to Old Orchard, and then from there to Northbrook Court.

Before the 2005 Pace restructuring, the CTA restructuring ran 205 over the same route to Old Orchard, so Pace said they would not run in competition with CTA. They canceled 212  but extended 422 past Old Orchard. However, since 422 runs on Lake in Wimette to Linden instead of Golf to Davis, that added 15-30 minutes to the running time.

Does the Linden to Old Orchard segment of 422 run every 30 minutes because 212 ran at that frequency? That segment seems like it should be reduced to hourly service, as the buses seem nearly empty except for the school trips. If the extension of 422 was really supposed to handle the 212's riders, I agree it was a bad decision since most people would opt for 205 or a route other than 422.

[Busjack]

25 minutes ago, Pace831 said:

Does the Linden to Old Orchard segment of 422 run every 30 minutes because 212 ran at that frequency?

Not for that reason, because 422 used to run every 20 minutes. Current frequency was an intentional cutback.

In fact, linking it with 212 messed it up worse, because while buses leave Linden at :00 (or :05) and :30, they leave Old Orchard eastbound at :00 or :05  (short trip) and :17 (from Northbrook). So, basically, no eastbound service for 43 or 48 minutes.

212 used to be 30 minutes only in the rush hour, but 422 past Old Orchard is once an hour at about all times.

Current schedule

25 minutes ago, Pace831 said:

If the extension of 422 was really supposed to handle the 212's riders, I agree it was a bad decision since most people would opt for 205 or a route other than 422.

Supposed to handle 212 only past Old Orchard. Those people don't have the choice of 205 unless they transfer at Old Orchard. Suggested transfer is to 208.

[Busjack]

April Board Video indicates some sort of proposal in June.

[Busjack]

18 minutes ago, MetroShadow said:

North Shore is still a work in progress...

"Progress" is not the word for it. There was supposed to be a service plan by June (see April post, immediately above), and it's August. Is there a word for "consultants milking it again?"

BTW, the board meeting videos also appear to have vanished from pacebus.com.

[Busjack]

I just got an email about some open houses in Sept. or Skokie. I ain't going.

[Tcmetro]

I went to today's meeting. Here is the rundown of the proposals:

54A - Eliminated and replaced with "Route C" which travels between Skokie Courthouse, Old Orchard, and Jefferson Park. Route 215 serves Cicero between Peterson and Foster.

93 - Improved frequencies.

96 - No changes.

97 - No changes.

155 - No changes.

201 - No changes.

205 - Eliminated. Golf Rd service replaced with 208. Chicago service replaced with 213.

206 - Reduced number of trips.

208 - Service moved to Golf/Emerson between Old Orchard and Davis CTA, replacing 205. Service on Church eliminated, except between Skokie and Crawford which is now served by 215.

210 - Eliminated. 

213 - Extended to Howard to replace 205. Service reduced north of Winnetka. Northbrook Court and Highland Park branches are merged and use Skokie Hwy between the two. 

215 - Restructured to operate between Old Orchard and Jefferson Park via Skokie, Church, Crawford/Pulaski, Peterson, Cicero, Foster.

225 - Serves the same route as today, except uses Touhy instead of Fargo between Central and Carpenter. Improved service to replace 226 on Central. 

226 - Extended to Howard CTA from Oakton/Niles Center via Oakton, Crawford, Howard. Improved service to replace 215 on Howard. 

250 - Pulse service added.

270 - Pulse service added.

290 - No changes.

421 - Eliminated and replaced with limited service on 422.

422 - Shortened to operate between Linden CTA and Glen of North Glenview Metra. Limited service added to replace 421. Service north of Glen of North Glenview provided by new "Route A"

423 - Eliminated. Replaced by new "Route A" and "Route B".

Route A - Follows route 423 from Linden CTA to Glen of North Glenview, then Route 422 to Northbrook Court.

Route B - Operates between Harlem CTA and Glenview via Harlem, Dempster, and Waukegan. Replaces 423 and part of 210.

Route C - Operates between Jefferson Park CTA and Skokie Courthouse via Foster, Edens Expwy, Touhy, Skokie, Old Orchard. Replaces 54A.