Pace/CTA North Shore Coordination Plan

[jajuan]

14 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Yeah but busjack then why isn't droves of riders riding 54a. It is the prototype to this kind of ns service. People have adjusted to yellow/purple line service. Basically they'll have to reprogram there brains or lure them to the other service. So it's an uphill climb. Good luck Pace. 

Btw, has ridership increased on the i90 corridor. I bet it has out to woodfield/nwtc but I don't know about out to Elgin or randall. One is competing with Metra which is faster and one seems like a long drive. Pace has to ask itself how many people are coming from that far west to go to blue line or downtown. 

CTA's 54A isn't drawing the ridership because it's rush hour only service on a 30 minute headway. Pace at least is sweetening the pot when it takes over the service by making the service an express route and adding in midday service. As Busjack points out, if a significant number of Avondale residents are going to Old Orchard then this helps them more because Pace will be offering a faster ride than CTA currently does and with expanded hours. They must feel some kind of market is there between Avondale and Old Orchard because they could have just said CTA will drop the route entire with no replacement. But instead they agreed that CTA will give the route over to Pace and let Pace change it to a streamlined express route with beefed up service hours.

[BusHunter]

I just dont get why pace cant run on any shoulder the buses are marked. The minuteman can do it. If all they need is an emergency beakon or light then put one on the bus. Other ta's have this. 

When I'm proposing Irving blue I'm thinking in terms of the x98. You know how the terminal changed. Did the ridership change cause Irving Pk is more convenient.

Foster does back up in the rush over there. It's not out the question for buses to be bumper to bumper Laramie to milwaukee. Then with new buses taking more space without a doubt to Lavergne or even elston is a possibility. That's at least 20 minutes of waiting.  See what I mean about lost time. Jeff to irving is another 6 minutes so conceivably that's a 26 minute loss for the commuter.  

All i can say that will help what's on the table now is to propose no parking in effect in both directions on foster. They need a boulevard type street not a road. The demand is just too great for that.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, BusHunter said:

Btw, has ridership increased on the i90 corridor. I bet it has out to woodfield/nwtc but I don't know about out to Elgin or randall. One is competing with Metra which is faster and one seems like a long drive.

Pretty much it isn't. The UP NW is too far north and the Milw W is too far south, except if one were really going to downtown Elgin and picking between Metra and 603. Schaumburg has been the underserved destination for about 45 years.

[Busjack]

53 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

just dont get why pace cant run on any shoulder the buses are marked. The minuteman can do it. If all they need is an emergency beakon or light then put one on the bus. Other ta's have this. 

As illustrated by both I-55 and Edens, they need at least a 15 foot shoulder, and no crossovers. Minutemen aren't running a 9 foot wide bus. As it is, there are all the interchanges on the Edens marked that the bus has to leave the shoulder. What's the bus going to do with all the right hand ramps on the Kennedy Expressway, and crossovers between the local and express lanes?

Besides, you still don't get the point that this is about eliminating duplication--not competing with the Blue Line for an inferior level of service. Remember, BOS is not allowed to move more than 15 mph than prevailing traffic. Rush hour on the Kennedy, that means no more than 15 mph, at least so long as the bottleneck with the Byrne Interchange construction persists.

53 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

When I'm proposing Irving blue I'm thinking in terms of the x98. You know how the terminal changed. Did the ridership change cause Irving Pk is more convenient.

X98 is one subsidized bus late at night. There isn't any terminal there. 54A and 254 went there, but, again,if the point is only to get to the Blue Line, no reason to contend with the traffic at Edens Jct. The ramp to Irving Park is a bear to navigate.

Also, since one goal was connections, bus connections are much better at Jefferson Park.

BTW: Did you respond to any customer survey showing any demand for this? Looks like you are a day late and a dollar short. If you look up the thread, at least I attended an open house. I'm not arguing now that Pace disregarded input that was not given to them. The consultants didn't follow my suggestion exactly, but did address the concern (in part by eliminating 205 and proposing 424).

 

[BusHunter]

Eliminating duplication. What about the #97 and #226.

The old Kennedy was hard to navigate edens to irving ramp but the new post construction setup is easy.

So your telling me a bus is wider than a wrecker designed to pick up heavy trucks. I understand the need to add edens service, but what is on Crawford that is not on Cicero or Skokie blvd. The 215 setup is kind of weird i see many of those riders on the 97. The 97 is going to need more service or maybe even artics but we shall see. 

[Busjack]

4 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Eliminating duplication. What about the #97 and #226.

I would have eliminated 97, but apparently Pace didn't have the resources to take it over. Maybe it ends up like 63W/386, or 108/352, with the schedules coordinated.

4 hours ago, BusHunter said:

So your telling me a bus is wider than a wrecker designed to pick up heavy trucks.

I don't think wreckers are scheduled to go through there every 20 minutes. Also, if there is a wreck or police activity that closes an expressway to traffic, the wrecker has to get around it, while the bus goes back to Skokie Road. In any event, no matter how you want to argue around it, the specification for BOS is a 15 foot wide shoulder.

4 hours ago, BusHunter said:

but what is on Crawford that is not on Cicero or Skokie blvd

A large residential area that apparently wants access to Jefferson Park. Also, one that is not immediately adjacent to the Dempster and Oakton Yellow Line stations.

4 hours ago, BusHunter said:

The 97 is going to need more service or maybe even artics but we shall see. 

Definitely not. Dec. 2017 Ridership Report says 2,655 average weekend riders, down -5.7%. Only change is that 226 will be in that corridor instead of 215. People on this forum have usually assumed that it takes 10,000 to 20,000 to justify artics (somewhere between J14 and 66). And, at one moment you are arguing that 97/226 are duplicative, and then inconsistently that 97 is going to be overwhelmed. Can't have it both ways. If nothing else, moving 215 to Jefferson Park results in less duplication at Old Orchard.

[BusHunter]

Just now, Busjack said:

I would have eliminated 97, but apparently Pace didn't have the resources to take it over. Maybe it ends up like 63W/386, with the schedules coordinated.

I don't think wreckers are scheduled to go through there every 20 minutes. Also, if there is a wreck or police activity that closes an expressway to traffic, the wrecker has to get around it, while the bus goes back to Skokie Road. In any event, no matter how you want to argue around it, the specification for BOS is a 15 foot wide shoulder.

A large residential area that apparently wants access to Jefferson Park. Also, one that is not immediately adjacent to the Dempster and Oakton Yellow Line stations.

Definitely not. Dec. 2017 Ridership Report says 2,655 average weekend riders, down -5.7%. Only change is that 226 will be in that corridor instead of 215. People on this forum have usually assumed that it takes 10,000 to 20,000 to justify artics (somewhere between J14 and 66). And, at one moment you are arguing that 97/226 are duplicative, and then inconsistently that 97 is going to be overrun. Can't have it both ways. If nothing else, moving 215 to Jefferson Park results in less duplication at Old Orchard.

It's simple busjack I propose 97 will be overcrowded and 226 will be very light. It might not even have riders at times but anything less than one hour intervals at midnight is just folly.

[Busjack]

1 minute ago, BusHunter said:

It's simple busjack I propose 97 will be overcrowded and 226 will be very light. It might not even have riders at times but anything less than one hour intervals at midnight is just folly.

I'm not sure who rides between Crawford and Howard at midnight, but the consultants have that number and you don't. But certainly, it isn't 10,000 suddenly needing to go from Old Orchard to Howard.

[MetroShadow]

97 and 226 are serving two different markets and corridors, from the way this looks. Unless they do coordinate schedules out of Howard, there’s no need for one service to take over - there’s no duplicity. 

And as for the 54A/215/641 - that’s an entirely new market that currently is insufficient (if you lived by the Blue Line and needed to get to Old Orchard, that’s at least a three-bus trip). This utilizes a new market that’s been (at least) 20 years too late.

I’m glad they’ve finally begun to reconfigure the service area that’s been around since the RTA days (talk about “legacy” routes). Populations and their demands have seemed to alternate and morph (especially since the 2005 reconfiguration), and the new service with BoS should Get us there. 

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, MetroShadow said:

And as for the 54A/215/641 - that’s an entirely new market that currently is insufficient (if you lived by the Blue Line and needed to get to Old Orchard, that’s at least a three-bus trip). This utilizes a new market that’s been (at least) 20 years too late.

That was indicated in 2005 by the third phase BRT plan, which was essentially this, except it relied on a BRT on the old North Shore Skokie Valley r.o.w., instead of the shoulder.  Finally, someone figured out that this could be done.

The rest I figure corrects errors in the 2005 plan, including, again, that somehow Glenview and Northbrook are in Wilmette. On the odd shaped routes, this plan resolves the questions of some here why 423 takes a U through The Glen, but assumes that those boarding on Patriot Blvd. either want to go to Wilmette on restructured 422 or transfer to Harlem on Glenview Rd.

[BusHunter]

1 hour ago, MetroShadow said:

97 and 226 are serving two different markets and corridors, from the way this looks. Unless they do coordinate schedules out of Howard, there’s no need for one service to take over - there’s no duplicity. 

And as for the 54A/215/641 - that’s an entirely new market that currently is insufficient (if you lived by the Blue Line and needed to get to Old Orchard, that’s at least a three-bus trip). This utilizes a new market that’s been (at least) 20 years too late.

I’m glad they’ve finally begun to reconfigure the service area that’s been around since the RTA days (talk about “legacy” routes). Populations and their demands have seemed to alternate and morph (especially since the 2005 reconfiguration), and the new service with BoS should Get us there. 

What really killed the 54a was the trips through the more affluent communities of forest Glen and sauganash and lincolnwood. Most people have cars there. You can ride today and ride right through those streets without a stop. Ridership doesnt really pick up until touhy. You know the most popular stop on the 54a is the yellow line and blue lines. Even old orchard doesnt do as well as rail stops. I really don't know what service they'll gain on Crawford on the 215 there is no yellow line connection. 

Should be interesting to see how they put the bays at Jeff for pace they can't put 4 buses in the same bay so where will they go? (225, 641,215, 270, 270 pulse. The Irving Pk terminal has no buses hint hint and better yet an expressway entrance ramp within 30 seconds of the route start and terminus. I keep getting this nagging suspicion someone didn't do there homework. We'll find out if the routes switch. This is what make i90 attractive hop on and go on the expressway quickly. 

[Busjack]

10 hours ago, BusHunter said:

. I keep getting this nagging suspicion someone didn't do there homework.

I keep getting this nagging feeling that someone didn't submit there comment card.

[BusHunter]

They said on wgn the startup of 620 and 626 edens shoulder service starts today. No mention of 641 that's weird. I thought the startup was on the 15th.

[Busjack]

25 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

No mention of 641 that's weird

I think it is kind of weird that there's persons who didn't read the linked documents.

Doesn't "Phase 2 [sometime in] 2019" mean anything to you?

[BusHunter]

20 minutes ago, Busjack said:

I think it is kind of weird that there's persons who didn't read the linked documents.

Doesn't "Phase 2 [sometime in] 2019" mean anything to you?

Thanks for clarifying. I don't have as much time as you do it seems. So first they take away 54a and then they give you a route that is more inconvenient. Way to go Pace!!!

[Busjack]

11 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

. So first they take away 54a and then they give you a route that is more inconvenient. Way to go Pace!!!

Pace didn't run 54a. And checking the CTA alerts, 54a is not on it this morning.

If you're near Irving Park, you can take an 85 bus or the Blue Line to Jefferson Park, but you won't find a 54a or 641 there this morning. If you rush, you might get the 9:40 at Irving Park, but you won't get the next bus until 2:10.That's more convenient?

[BusHunter]

I'll tell you what I would do if I was going to old orchard on the bus from the nw side I would take a 225 and connect to 97. Going on a site seeing adventure just doesnt fit my schedule. Lol!! You know 225 can be used to connect to yellow line nb but sb you are screwed. 

Overall seems Like they took two steps back one forward there is now no yellow line connection from the south and old orchard is probably more indirect than taking a 606 to Woodfield and Woodfield is farther away, but I guess no one from the nw side was at the meetings. I'm just surprised that this oversight was overlooked. Well I guess we'll see what happens. 215 is probably going to do better on the north end. From a drivers perspective it probably is a good time to drive ns. It should be like a 90n down south.

[Busjack]

10 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

there is now no yellow line connection from the south

No point to one, although 97 and 641 will still stop there.

10 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

and old orchard is probably more indirect

Not if it runs express.

 

11 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

but I guess no one from the nw side was at the meetings

Apparently so, but it (like the outer environs of "Wilmette") was not in the study area. Also, from the tenor of your remarks, somehow you appear to be in Avondale.

BTW, the Final Report cites DNA Info articles that Ald. Laurino wanted Pace to reinstate bus service on Devon to Edgebrook, to which the answer was "no way" (page 84). So, someone from the NW side put her two cents into that.

 

17 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

From a drivers perspective it probably is a good time to drive ns. It should be like a 90n down south.

I don't recall you complaining about 90N being canceled without replacement service on Touhy to Overhill. This is about what that is.On the other hand, RTAMS and the documents indicate that 213 is taking on an additional 1000 passengers and Page 94 of the Final Report that Forest Glen saves 23000 annual service hours, which is all that concerns CTA,

[BusHunter]

Well basically they lost that corridor there is now no way to go to old orchard unless you want to take 2 hours. 

They probably wanted the 53 connection but what is the connection after that there is none to jeff.

[Busjack]

2 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Well basically they lost that corridor there is now no way to go to old orchard unless you want to take 2 hours. 

They probably wanted the 53 connection but what is the connection after that there is none to jeff.

I don't follow anything you just said (other than maybe Crawford/Pulaski gets service between Howard and Peterson).

[artthouwill]

17 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Well basically they lost that corridor there is now no way to go to old orchard unless you want to take 2 hours. 

They probably wanted the 53 connection but what is the connection after that there is none to jeff.

I have been struggling to  figure out exactly what you are  arguing for or against.  But apparently  you don't  like the realignments, but they seem very logical and overdue.

[Busjack]

An aside, which will demonstrate whether anyone read the linked documents:

What  is the well deserved diss to Macy's in the Final Report?

[BusHunter]

2 hours ago, artthouwill said:

I have been struggling to  figure out exactly what you are  arguing for or against.  But apparently  you don't  like the realignments, but they seem very logical and overdue.

They could have been better. For me a trip to old orchard is 4 buses it's a good thing I don't go there but somewhere I did travel to is affected as well. There's always uber. Going about 5 miles out of my way yields the same results. Is that progress. Sounds like I'm going backwards. I used to do it in 2 rides. 

I don't know why the realignment is so good. I just don't see it that way. I90 was so much better. We really can't say what will happen but from my experience it looks like a failure. 

[Busjack]

7 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

For me a trip to old orchard is 4 buses it's a good thing I don't go there but somewhere I did travel to is affected as well.

Again indicates that you should have filled out the survey.

[jajuan]

3 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Well basically they lost that corridor there is now no way to go to old orchard unless you want to take 2 hours. 

They probably wanted the 53 connection but what is the connection after that there is none to jeff.

The swap over of 54A to the new 641 doesn't happen until next year. Once it does, it's essentially the same ride except for the start at Jefferson Pk and running express from Foster to Touhy and the expanded hours. If you don't like that ride and still want to get to Old Orchard from Irving Park/Pulaski instead as CTA only provides during rush hour on the 54A, then there's always taking the 53 to Peterson and hopping on the realigned 215 which also isn't until next year.Plus the 97, 201, and 208 aren't going anywhere, meaning there will still be ways to get to that mall from the relevant CTA Blue, Yellow, Red and Purple Line stations as is possible now. So I too am confused on what you find so wrong the upcoming changes.