Question About The South Halsted Routes

[juelzkellz]

I was riding the 8A today and I noticed a few things. The 8 ends at 79th/Halsted. The 8A ends at 79th/Perry and goes to 127th. The 108 starts at the 95th Red Line station and goes to 127th. The 352 also starts at 95th and goes to the south suburbs. I noticed that there is a gap that the 8A covers between 79th and 95th. It makes more sense to me to extend the 8 to either the 95th Red Line or 95th and Halsted and combine the 8A into the 108. It just seems like a waste to have two buses that are basically the same route existing at the same time. 

[artthouwill]

The current 8 exists as when streetcars ran the route before buses.  The 86 to 79th/Perry came as a result of the opening of the Dan Ryan line.   The 108 as you now Know it was originally numbered 42B.  South Suburban Safeway,  now Pace, always ran the Halsted suburban route.  The 42B was renamed the 8A, then eventually the 108.  

I agree the 8 should be extended to 9th and the 86 eliminated,  but it doesn't seem to be a large contingent transferring from 8 to 8A.  That's why it hasn't happened. 

[Busjack]

I was riding the 8A today and I noticed a few things. The 8 ends at 79th/Halsted. The 8A ends at 79th/Perry and goes to 127th. The 108 starts at the 95th Red Line station and goes to 127th. The 352 also starts at 95th and goes to the south suburbs. I noticed that there is a gap that the 8A covers between 79th and 95th. It makes more sense to me to extend the 8 to either the 95th Red Line or 95th and Halsted and combine the 8A into the 108. It just seems like a waste to have two buses that are basically the same route existing at the same time. 

 

The current 8 exists as when streetcars ran the route before buses.  The 86 to 79th/Perry came as a result of the opening of the Dan Ryan line.   The 108 as you now Know it was originally numbered 42B.  South Suburban Safeway,  now Pace, always ran the Halsted suburban route.  The 42B was renamed the 8A, then eventually the 108.  

I agree the 8 should be extended to 9th and the 86 eliminated,  but it doesn't seem to be a large contingent transferring from 8 to 8A.  That's why it hasn't happened. 

Art has the history a bit confused.

The original streetcar (according to Lind's book) was to either 79th and Halsted or 111th and Sacremento via Vincennes (according to Lind's book). At some point, CTA cut back all 8 service to 79th. 42B (renumbered to 8A) was from 79th and Halsted south.

The Dan Ryan resulted in two routes 42B:

• 42B to 79th Dan Ryan was extended to the 79th and Perry turnaround to serve the 79th station.
• 42B to 95th Dan Ryan was instituted as a quicker feeder to 95th.*

At some point, the first was renumbered as 8A and the second as 108.

As art points out, there always was the South Suburban or Pace South bus. We debated at the time of the Crowd Reduction Plan that 108 should be eliminated as overlapping 352,but the Ridership Report indicated that 108 was too heavy for Pace to handle it.

The other issue is that there is the big bus terminal at 79th Place and Halsted, and probably no where to recreate it at 95th and Halsted.

_________

*One observation: on the 1975 era destination signs, the 79 or 95 was much bigger than the "RAPID TRANSIT' on the yellow panel, so the potential for confusion was realized even then.

[MetroShadow]

I would argue the merit of the 8A, 108 and 352 have always been for separate markets, and their ridership in the corridor would justify keeping them all, not deleting them.

Merging or deleting one of the CTA components won't work, but that's because of its history (as noted), and the 108 is a suitable feeder during Peak Hours to 95. At most other times, you've got the 352 to 95 and the 8A to 79 (unless you're not going to the Red Line and riding in-corridor, it makes no difference since there is a bus at least every x amount of minutes).

[Busjack]

...

Merging or deleting one of the CTA components won't work, but that's because of its history (as noted), and the 108 is a suitable feeder during Peak Hours to 95. ...

What threw me off was that the route description page said 5:45a to 8:10 p, but the schedule is, as you and I thought, rush hour only (no service between 8:53 and 2:05 northbound).

[MetroShadow]

What threw me off was that the route description page said 5:45a to 8:10 p, but the schedule is, as you and I thought, rush hour only (no service between 8:53 and 2:05 northbound).

I think there could be a case to give it to Pace if it was an all-day service (before Booze-Allen?), but if its only rush (and at that, school supplemental service*), then it's a "corridor enhancement."

 

*School Supplemental isn't shown in/on the June Schedule.

[Busjack]

I think there could be a case to give it to Pace if it was an all-day service (before Booze-Allen?), but if its only rush (and at that, school supplemental service*), then it's a "corridor enhancement."

 

*School Supplemental isn't shown in/on the June Schedule.

My impression was that 108 was always a rush hour route. A certain amount of overlap is eliminated by limiting 8A to 119th and Halsted during rush hour during weekdays. (Again, the route summary page is wrong.)

[juelzkellz]

I looked up both routes schedules and south of 95th and Halsted, things still don't make any sense. Between 95th and Halsted and 127th and Halsted, the 8A, 108, and 352 are essentially the same route. It just makes more sense to me to Extend the 8 to the 95th Red Line station and combine the 8A and 108 runs into one route also ending at the 95th Red Line station. You still have the same amount of coverage and in the process can free up some equipment to be used elsewhere. For the people that need to access the Red Line, people on the 8 can either stay on until 95th or get off at 79th and catch the 79th street bus. People on the combined 8A/108 can take the bus to 95th Red Line station and catch it there. 

[artthouwill]

My impression was that 108 was always a rush hour route. A certain amount of overlap is eliminated by limiting 8A to 119th and Halsted during rush hour during weekdays. (Again, the route summary page is wrong.)

Not quite.  In the late 80s it was an all day route.  Midday service and off peak service was actually coordinated with Pace.  Service ran approximately 10 minutes apart with every 3rd bus being  a Pace bus (30 minute intervals between  95th and 170th/Wood and 60 min between 95th and Chicago Heights).  Rush hour 352s only dropped passengers north of 127th and picked up passengers north of 127th.  The cut to rush only service was a result of a service cut (can't  remember if it was 1997 or when).  The 8A was shortened to 119th  and only extended back to 127th when the 108 was cut to rush only.

[andrethebusman]

Again, some route history:

Streetcars ran thru to 111th/Sacramento via Halsted-Summit-Vincennes-Monterey with short-line and downtown cars turning via 79th-Emerald-terminal-Halsted. 42B buses began 10/17/38, started on 87th west of Halsted making "U" turn east of RI bridge, then via Halsted originally to 123rd, later to 127th. Safeway was there MANY YEARS before the 42B, starting about 1927, from 63rd/Halsted thru Harvey-Homewood-Chicago Heights to Crete, later to Park Forest Plaza, with the result that Safeway always had local rights south of 83rd Street.

When PCC's were put on Halsted 12/4/49, tracks south of 79th were abandoned and replaced by 111A-Vincennes/111th buses. At the same time, 42B's were extended from 87th to 79th to make connections. 1969 42B's were extended to 79th/Perry, to the Ryan. A year later, 1970, alternate weekday rush 42B's were routed to 95th/Dan Ryan. 1976 42B was renumbered 8A. 1979 Safeway buses were cut back to 95th/Ryan. September 1985 95/Ryan trips were renumbered 108 and service hours expanded to full day & evening daily, with rush PACE 352's running pick up only SB, drop off only NB north of 127th. At the time, 8A's were cut back to Halsted/103rd, and run over to Beverly Garage to turn around, for lack of anyplace else to turn them in the area of 95th. However, thanks to political interference, a month later 8A's started running to 119th. 108's had full owl service June 1988 to February 1992 and again September 1993 thru December 1997, when hours were cut to rush only and most of the service was given over to PACE 352, and 8A's resumed running to 127th except when 108 is running.

 

Edited August 21, 2015 by andrethebusman

[andrethebusman]

There was talk in 1985 of extending 8's to 95/Ryan, but the already horrible rush hour congestion in that terminal made that idea impossible. Once the new south terminal opens (next year? 2017?) This might be an idea to kick around again.

[Busjack]

Not quite. ...

Whatever the case with regard to my impression, MetroShadow summarized the situation now.

 

I looked up both routes schedules and south of 95th and Halsted, things still don't make any sense. Between 95th and Halsted and 127th and Halsted, the 8A, 108, and 352 are essentially the same route. It just makes more sense to me to Extend the 8 to the 95th Red Line station and combine the 8A and 108 runs into one route also ending at the 95th Red Line station. You still have the same amount of coverage and in the process can free up some equipment to be used elsewhere. For the people that need to access the Red Line, people on the 8 can either stay on until 95th or get off at 79th and catch the 79th street bus. People on the combined 8A/108 can take the bus to 95th Red Line station and catch it there. 

If the Red Line station doesn't have the capacity now, and the plan to increase its capacity doesn't include that, then where is it supposed to dock? As I mentioned before, there is an adequate terminal at 79th Place. Furthermore, it sure doesn't look like the frequency is the same south of 79th. With all the short turns at Root and North Branch to begin with, it sure looks like they are trying to control mileage on 8.

Andre's last post summarizes the problem, but I don't think they will be revisiting this.

[Brandon93]

I was riding the 8A today and I noticed a few things. The 8 ends at 79th/Halsted. The 8A ends at 79th/Perry and goes to 127th. The 108 starts at the 95th Red Line station and goes to 127th. The 352 also starts at 95th and goes to the south suburbs. I noticed that there is a gap that the 8A covers between 79th and 95th. It makes more sense to me to extend the 8 to either the 95th Red Line or 95th and Halsted and combine the 8A into the 108. It just seems like a waste to have two buses that are basically the same route existing at the same time. 

I agree that the 8A and the 108 should be merged into one and the give all the 108 should be eliminated.

There was talk in 1985 of extending 8's to 95/Ryan, but the already horrible rush hour congestion in that terminal made that idea impossible. Once the new south terminal opens (next year? 2017?) This might be an idea to kick around again.

They barely even started building the south terminal maybe they might actually start putting it up and if they extend the 8 to 95th then I can see 103rd getting the 8. I mean the 8 has seen 3 different garages since my lifetime 74th, Kedzie, and 77th it's like an unwanted foster child.

[Busjack]

I agree that the 8A and the 108 should be merged into one and the give all the 108 should be eliminated.

They barely even started building the south terminal maybe they might actually start putting it up and if they extend the 8 to 95th then I can see 103rd getting the 8. I mean the 8 has seen 3 different garages since my lifetime 74th, Kedzie, and 77th it's like an unwanted foster child.

• Do you really want to inconvenience 1500 commuters a day by making them go to 79th? This is based on the Ridership Report of 1500 boardings on 108. If the Crowd Reduction Plan proved nothing else (such as splitting 111 and 115) the one thing CTA does not want to do  is start protests on the south side about making transit even more inconvenient.
• Even if there will be more loading berths at 95th after expansion, the current 8 schedule says buses run every 5 to 12 minutes during the rush hour to 79th and Halsted. Do you really think traffic conditions at 95th and Dan Ryan are going to tolerate making another 5-12 buses cross 95th at the height of rush hour?
• Do you and juelz really think that eliminating a segment of 8A that runs every 15 minutes and replacing it by extending 8 3 miles to 95th and State that runs every 5-12 is going to save any money, or eliminate duplication on 95h? juelz--you math is all messed up.

[MetroShadow]

I looked up both routes schedules and south of 95th and Halsted, things still don't make any sense. Between 95th and Halsted and 127th and Halsted, the 8A, 108, and 352 are essentially the same route. It just makes more sense to me to Extend the 8 to the 95th Red Line station and combine the 8A and 108 runs into one route also ending at the 95th Red Line station. You still have the same amount of coverage and in the process can free up some equipment to be used elsewhere. For the people that need to access the Red Line, people on the 8 can either stay on until 95th or get off at 79th and catch the 79th street bus. People on the combined 8A/108 can take the bus to 95th Red Line station and catch it there. 

Think of the 108 as a 352 Local in the 95th-127th segment; and the 8A as a 352 Local in the 79th-119th/127th segment. If the 108 was an all-day service, then you can make the argument to combine something. 

At the same time, running the 8 from Addison to 95th is excessive (and using the 9 as a counter-argument is akin to apples and oranges). I could argue to move the 8 and 8A to 63rd for reliability purposes. I say this because putting the 8 on 95th won't help for reliability (and 95th is/was/will be crowded anyway). You could argue the 8A branch to 95th is an option, but why? The 108 does this anyway.

[juelzkellz]

• Do you really want to inconvenience 1500 commuters a day by making them go to 79th? This is based on the Ridership Report of 1500 boardings on 108. If the Crowd Reduction Plan proved nothing else (such as splitting 111 and 115) the one thing CTA does not want to do  is start protests on the south side about making transit even more inconvenient.
• Even if there will be more loading berths at 95th after expansion, the current 8 schedule says buses run every 5 to 12 minutes during the rush hour to 79th and Halsted. Do you really think traffic conditions at 95th and Dan Ryan are going to tolerate making another 5-12 buses cross 95th at the height of rush hour?
• Do you and juelz really think that eliminating a segment of 8A that runs every 15 minutes and replacing it by extending 8 3 miles to 95th and State that runs every 5-12 is going to save any money, or eliminate duplication on 95h? juelz--you math is all messed up.

First off I was actually in the area so everything I posted was just an observation. No need to get bent out of shape.

[jajuan]

First off I was actually in the area so everything I posted was just an observation. No need to get bent out of shape.

Your observation though, and I don't mean this as an insult, only looks at things on the surface. What the others are trying to get across is that 108 only operates during weekday rush periods and the 8A goes to 127th only when the 108 is not operating. When 108 does run, 8A gets truncated to 119th. The other part of it is that while merging this with that and eliminating something else sounds good on paper, the actual current facts don't fit the theory playing out too well in this case with the mentioned facts being that 108 has impressive performance numbers in its current rush hour only form that suggests that 8A and 352 would get overwhelmed on that portion of Halsted in the rush periods if 108 were taken away. Given that, south siders can say they've gotten the impossible out of CTA with the announcements of the rush hour restoration of X9 and X49 later in the fall as discussed in that thread. So it doesn't appear likely that they're going to turn around and antagonize south siders right behind that with the inconveniences that would come any of the suggested mergings among the 8A/108/352 combination because we want to take too simplistic a view that they're the same route. Look at it this way, all three still exist together for reasons analogous to why 134, 135, 136, 143, 146, 147, 148, 151, and 156 all still exist together in their current configurations on the north side when one can make a similar surface argument and observation that those all the same route with their overlaps on Lake Shore Drive, Inner Lake Shore Drive/Marine Drive, and Sheridan. But we all have a good idea of how much of a transit mess that would create on the north side if those got consolidated and merged beyond what the De-Crowd plan already did. So not all route overlaps are excessive or wasteful and actually do serve legitimately different markets on their portion of that given corridor. 

[juelzkellz]

Your observation though, and I don't mean this as an insult, only looks at things on the surface. What the others are trying to get across is that 108 only operates during weekday rush periods and the 8A goes to 127th only when the 108 is not operating. When 108 does run, 8A gets truncated to 119th. The other part of it is that while merging this with that and eliminating something else sounds good on paper, the actual current facts don't fit the theory playing out too well in this case with the mentioned facts being that 108 has impressive performance numbers in its current rush hour only form that suggests that 8A and 352 would get overwhelmed on that portion of Halsted in the rush periods if 108 were taken away. Given that, south siders can say they've gotten the impossible out of CTA with the announcements of the rush hour restoration of X9 and X49 later in the fall as discussed in that thread. So it doesn't appear likely that they're going to turn around and antagonize south siders right behind that with the inconveniences that would come any of the suggested mergings among the 8A/108/352 combination because we want to take too simplistic a view that they're the same route. Look at it this way, all three still exist together for reasons analogous to why 134, 135, 136, 143, 146, 147, 148, 151, and 156 all still exist together in their current configurations on the north side when one can make a similar surface argument and observation that those all the same route with their overlaps on Lake Shore Drive, Inner Lake Shore Drive/Marine Drive, and Sheridan. But we all have a good idea of how much of a transit mess that would create on the north side if those got consolidated and merged beyond what the De-Crowd plan already did. So not all route overlaps are excessive or wasteful and actually do serve legitimately different markets on their portion of that given corridor. 

Well I don't live in that area so I have no dog in that fight. If it works for them, cool. If not, that's cool too.

[jajuan]

Well I don't live in that area so I have no dog in that fight. If it works for them, cool. If not, that's cool too.

Well keeping it on a south side perspective, would you really want to ride on an 8A or 352 swamped with a bunch of excited teens from Julian High School (and to a smaller degree Carver Military Academy) that both routes would have to contend with because the 108 is gone through a merge or elimination that your proposal would cause? So yes the current setup down there with overlaps does work.

[Busjack]

... I could argue to move the 8 and 8A to 63rd for reliability purposes. I say this because putting the 8 on 95th won't help for reliability (and 95th is/was/will be crowded anyway). ....

The latter occurred during the Red Line shutdown, when 8A was extended to 63rd.

I've argued before that to get the most out of the Green Line, 3 and 4 should have less intensive service north of 63rd.8A was proven to the a similar situation. However, since nothing has affected the migration from the Green Line to the Red Line in the past 25 years, I know that this suggestion would only cause wall to wall protests.

[Busjack]

....Given that, south siders can say they've gotten the impossible out of CTA with the announcements of the rush hour restoration of X9 and X49 later in the fall as discussed in that thread. So it doesn't appear likely that they're going to turn around and antagonize south siders right behind that with the inconveniences that would come any of the suggested mergings among the 8A/108/352 combination....

Somewhat interesting, the Press Release indicated that TSP would be completed on Ashland from Cermak to 95th a year earlier (Spring 2016) than from Cermak to Iriving Park (late 2017), even though arguably that other than in Back of the Yards, the heavy traffic is in the north segment. To get back to 8, obviously the heaviest portion is the near west side one, between Root and North Branch.

On your 130s and 140s point, the objective there was to allocate passenger load, by slicing segments at Belmont, Irving Park,* Foster, and Devon. The south LSD one (before being slightly dismembered by cancelling X3 and X4) was to divide demand on an east-west basis, instead of everyone transferring onto Jeffery. As you point out, the 8A/108 split does the same thing by taking care of those who want to get to the Red Line quicker from those just riding locally on Halsted, and apparently Pace can't take care of that demand.

 

*More service was added from Irving Park when people complained they couldn't get on starting at about Roscoe.