Pace Electric Buses

[artthouwill]

1 minute ago, BusHunter said:

How did they justify the cdl mandate on his work hours per day?

As long as the driver doesn't exceed 11 hours of driving time, it works.   I'm believe that driver gets a 45 minute to an hour lunch break and should get another 20 minutes somewhere.  There's about a 15 minute layover at Golf Mill.  I don't know the layover time between 574 and 570.   I also don't know if this driver has a 15 minute layover between the 565 and 574 or a lync before the 574.

I agree with @Busjack thathat CLC seems to be the only logical place for a charger considering several routes serve it    i suoopise Pace and CLC can come to an agreement to place a charger there away from the buildings. 

[Busjack]

Melinda Metzger mentioned at today's board meeting that Pace will be leasing a Gilig electric bus and charger and that the intergovernmental agreement was being amended to put charging infrastructure at the Plainfield garage.

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

Melinda Metzger mentioned at today's board meeting that Pace will be leasing a Gilig electric bus and charger and that the intergovernmental agreement was being amended to put charging infrastructure at the Plainfield garage.

Maybe Pace can find a way to get New Flyer and Nova electrics too.  Get charging stations at West and SW also. We welcome Gillig to the electric scene with Proterra and ENC. 

[BusHunter]

2 hours ago, artthouwill said:

Maybe Pace can find a way to get New Flyer and Nova electrics too.  Get charging stations at West and SW also. We welcome Gillig to the electric scene with Proterra and ENC. 

Wow this sounds interesting. But why put electric chargers at Plainfield??? 

At least they sound like they have a plan. Did I miss something about ENC electrics? Pace has the advantage of using smaller electrics out in the outlying garages. If they used the same ratio they did now of 40 versus 30 footers maybe they could shift a few electric 40 foot buses out of the new Wheeling garage. It's a way to get a system in place on the cheap. Now that's something cta could do also to save some dough. Why have an electric 40 footer do a #55N. That don't make sense.

[artthouwill]

12 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Wow this sounds interesting. But why put electric chargers at Plainfield??? 

At least they sound like they have a plan. Did I miss something about ENC electrics? Pace has the advantage of using smaller electrics out in the outlying garages. If they used the same ratio they did now of 40 versus 30 footers maybe they could shift a few electric 40 foot buses out of the new Wheeling garage. It's a way to get a system in place on the cheap. Now that's something cta could do also to save some dough. Why have an electric 40 footer do a #55N. That don't make sense.

My mistake.   ENC has the CNGS and not electrics, although I think they do have an electric bus.  

[Busjack]

3 hours ago, BusHunter said:

But why put electric chargers at Plainfield??? 

At least they sound like they have a plan.

2 plus 2 equals 4. Pay for the infrastructure when the capital funds are still around.

[BusHunter]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

2 plus 2 equals 4. Pay for the infrastructure when the capital funds are still around.

I find it interesting that they will most likely have a Plainfield charger before they have a north garage one. According to the meeting they expect to have a gillig electric by May. That's fast. The Proterras are not arriving until March 2023, the 6 anyway. Plainfield seems to have a training center of some type, that must be why they were selected to receive the charger and bus. 

[Busjack]

9 hours ago, BusHunter said:

that must be why they were selected to receive the charger and bus.

Nobody said both. In fact, later in the video, they said it was going to be a Proterra bus charger, also a ChargePoint car charger.

[BusHunter]

43 minutes ago, Busjack said:

Nobody said both. In fact, later in the video, they said it was going to be a Proterra bus charger, also a ChargePoint car charger.

How do you train with half of what's needed to charge it?  You can't charge a bus without a charger and you can't use a charger without an electric bus. Hmm I heard Gillig. Now I'm going to have to watch it again!!

[BusHunter]

Ok your right.? But guess what I'm right. ? Listen to the first link you put up about them receiving the gillig bus. They said the bus is coming on May 9th and the charger from them (gillig) is coming on May 3rd. But then in your latest link they say Proterra charger. Could be the Gillig is temporary while the Proterra charger is permanent.

I was going to say why get the charger from another company and use it with another manufactured bus. I don't think the Gillig execs want a photo op with a Proterra charger. I didnt know each bus manufacturer uses its own charger. I thought just a 3rd party did that. If so that's a real fly in the ointment because how can you then mix fleets. You would almost have to segregate fleets per garage. I wonder what the cta guys are using to charge the 700s?

[Busjack]

3 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Ok your right.? But guess what I'm right. ? Listen to the first link you put up about them receiving the gillig bus. They said the bus is coming on May 9th and the charger from them (gillig) is coming on May 3rd. But then in your latest link they say Proterra charger. Could be the Gillig is temporary while the Proterra charger is permanent.

I was going to say why get the charger from another company and use it with another manufactured bus. I don't think the Gillig execs want a photo op with a Proterra charger. I didnt know each bus manufacturer uses its own charger. I thought just a 3rd party did that. If so that's a real fly in the ointment because how can you then mix fleets. You would almost have to segregate fleets per garage. I wonder what the cta guys are using to charge the 700s?

1. The Gillig business is apparently a lease for demonstration purposes.

2. On the chargers, each bus manufacturer is associated with one. For instance, there is NFI Infrastructure Solutions, which supposedly supplied the charger at Midway. The ones for Chicago Ave. were supplied by Proterra. However, all overhead chargers must meet SAE J-3105, so the fleets are interchangeable.

 

[artthouwill]

18 minutes ago, Busjack said:

1. The Gillig business is apparently a lease for demonstration purposes.

2. On the chargers, each bus manufacturer is associated with one. For instance, there is NFI Infrastructure Solutions, which supposedly supplied the charger at Midway. The ones for Chicago Ave. were supplied by Proterra. However, all overhead chargers must meet SAE J-3105, so the fleets are interchangeable.

 

Based on the video it was stated that there would be some demos with the Gillig bus but after the demos it would be placed into revenue service.  Perhaps Gillig is using Pace as the guinea  pig for promoting its electric bus.

[BusHunter]

4 hours ago, Busjack said:

1. The Gillig business is apparently a lease for demonstration purposes.

2. On the chargers, each bus manufacturer is associated with one. For instance, there is NFI Infrastructure Solutions, which supposedly supplied the charger at Midway. The ones for Chicago Ave. were supplied by Proterra. However, all overhead chargers must meet SAE J-3105, so the fleets are interchangeable.

 

Leasing gives Gillig more power than purchasing cause they can always say as a term of the lease, we only want this charger to charge the bus. When you buy it's yours to do what you want. Worst that could happen is a voided warranty. 

They probably hope Pace likes the demo and buys some buses.

They just sold some electrics to St Louis. 950k a bus. That sounds kind of cheap. Maybe Pace is on to something.

[BusHunter]

Was looking around, Proterra has a plan in which the purchaser can opt for a battery lease on the electric bus. They claim it can bring the costs down of an electric bus to that of a diesel. I'm kind of skeptical, I feel like it's a buy now pay later plan because you have to lease the battery that goes in the bus. Now it might not be bad in the respect that the battery fails like a Chevy bolt did or something happens like a fire of some sort. You would be covered. It's something to chew on or assess to see if it's a worthy purchase or not. Moline,Illinois Metrolink has bought a few electrics this way. There's been quite a few agencies that's done it. I can't seem to find figures of the lease or purchase. Something to look at though. 

 

[Busjack]

11 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Was looking around, Proterra has a plan in which the purchaser can opt for a battery lease on the electric bus. They claim it can bring the costs down of an electric bus to that of a diesel. I'm kind of skeptical, I feel like it's a buy now pay later plan because you have to lease the battery that goes in the bus. Now it might not be bad in the respect that the battery fails like a Chevy bolt did or something happens like a fire of some sort. You would be covered. It's something to chew on or assess to see if it's a worthy purchase or not. Moline,Illinois Metrolink has bought a few electrics this way. There's been quite a few agencies that's done it. I can't seem to find figures of the lease or purchase. Something to look at though. 

 

The way you have to figure it is that if a diesel bus has a 500,000 mile service life, you have to put say 130,000 gallons of diesel fuel in it at about $2.50/gallon,  or $325,000 over the life of the bus. So, depending on the cost of electricity and the lease rate, it may be close, Certainly a pay now or pay over the lifetime of the bus proposition.

[BusHunter]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/sebastianblanco/2019/04/18/proterra-ready-for-electric-bus-battery-leasing-with-200-million-credit-facility/amp/

a link. What I meant by figures is no one seems to say what was the purchase price of the bus or the lease price. Is it worth it? I need to do more digging

Edit: it says in the article 550k for the bus 40k annually for the lease. Lease only goes for 12 years though, after that what happens the said agency is held hostage?? 

Basically Proterra will pay the costs in charging the buses, I wonder does that include the infrastructure. What they are saying is you buy an electric bus pay a diesel price, pay them your fuel budget and they will take care of business. Sounds good you don't have any cost savings though. Pretty smart on Proterras part. It will buy an agency time if it has infrastructure issues.

A cool point is they will change the battery for free at midlife, regardless of tech. So if the battery improves, you score with the newer battery. 

[Busjack]

10 hours ago, BusHunter said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/sebastianblanco/2019/04/18/proterra-ready-for-electric-bus-battery-leasing-with-200-million-credit-facility/amp/

a link. What I meant by figures is no one seems to say what was the purchase price of the bus or the lease price. Is it worth it? I need to do more digging

Edit: it says in the article 550k for the bus 40k annually for the lease. Lease only goes for 12 years though, after that what happens the said agency is held hostage?? 

Basically Proterra will pay the costs in charging the buses, I wonder does that include the infrastructure. What they are saying is you buy an electric bus pay a diesel price, pay them your fuel budget and they will take care of business. Sounds good you don't have any cost savings though. Pretty smart on Proterras part. It will buy an agency time if it has infrastructure issues.

A cool point is they will change the battery for free at midlife, regardless of tech. So if the battery improves, you score with the newer battery. 

You have it figured out. $550k is about the current cost of a diesel bus. The number I gave for diesel fuel was about $27k/year, but you don't have certainty for that, and the maintenance for an electric bus is much less than for a diesel bus (no oil changes, no particulate filters, and brakes last a lot longer due to regeneration).

As far as a 12 year lease, it's no different than the 12 year lease on the 4000s or 12 year collateralized securities on the 1630s--you have an obsolete bus, Depending on the cost of bonding out the approx. $300k additional cost, the lease offered by Proterra might be a better deal. Of course, CTA got the $300k difference from the CMAQ grant.

[BusHunter]

3 hours ago, Busjack said:

You have it figured out. $550k is about the current cost of a diesel bus. The number I gave for diesel fuel was about $27k/year, but you don't have certainty for that, and the maintenance for an electric bus is much less than for a diesel bus (no oil changes, no particulate filters, and brakes last a lot longer due to regeneration).

As far as a 12 year lease, it's no different than the 12 year lease on the 4000s or 12 year collateralized securities on the 1630s--you have an obsolete bus, Depending on the cost of bonding out the approx. $300k additional cost, the lease offered by Proterra might be a better deal. Of course, CTA got the $300k difference from the CMAQ grant.

Where does it put the agency after 12 years proterra claims ownership of the batteries and without the batteries you are sunk. Technology is changing. We are not always gonna need batteries...

[Busjack]

52 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Where does it put the agency after 12 years proterra claims ownership of the batteries and without the batteries you are sunk. Technology is changing. We are not always gonna need batteries...

Either you buy batteries from somewhere, or you have a shell. Again not much different than leasing a car.

For that matter, what did CTA have after figuring out that it wasn't going to mess with hydeogen fuel cells? 3 bus shells. Maybe CCC will want them.

At least the electric bus shells will have been fully depreciated.

[BusHunter]

21 hours ago, Busjack said:

Either you buy batteries from somewhere, or you have a shell. Again not much different than leasing a car.

For that matter, what did CTA have after figuring out that it wasn't going to mess with hydeogen fuel cells? 3 bus shells. Maybe CCC will want them.

At least the electric bus shells will have been fully depreciated.

Not in the eyes of cta. The only bus I know of that ran 12 years or less was the Optimas. Ultimately if you figure the prices by the time you pay 12 years of 40k and 550k, that's 990k. More than 950k now on a new purchase. Plus if they ran past 12 years that's free years if you bought it, so it's sort of like buy now pay later, and lose the batteries. If the batteries are so valuable maybe cta could sell them and earn a profit before they scrap the bus.

Now on the positives, no battery has made 12 years AFAIK, and under the plan you get a new one at midlife or 6 years, so that might make sense. Seems like Proterra is tipping its hand with the 6 year element. 6 years to midlife, 6 years to scrap. Seems like they think the battery won't make it past 6 years. (It might make it 8 or 9) Now in cases of premature failure which is gonna happen mathematically, I would think the plan kicks in to get you a new battery, but not to forget the warranty on the buses battery should get you 100k miles. So really it's just a buy now pay later theme. I'd try out a handful just to see what happens. 

[Anthony Devera]

1 hour ago, BusHunter said:

The only bus I know of that ran 12 years or less was the Optimas.

Didn't the 900-series ISE hybrids run only from 2007 to 2015? I'm getting these years from chicagobus.org. I believe they were pulled out of service because ISE went bankrupt, so CTA couldn't get parts for these buses.

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, Anthony Devera said:

Didn't the 900-series ISE hybrids run only from 2007 to 2015? I'm getting these years from chicagobus.org. I believe they were pulled out of service because ISE went bankrupt, so CTA couldn't get parts for these buses.

To add to that, we know the 7500 series NABI buses barely lasted 4 years.    The 5800 series New Flyers lasted 12 years exactly.  

On the Pace side, I think the 8200 series Grumman Flxbles only lasted 12 years, which was a miracle considering the cracked frames they had.  I don't know how long the awful 2500 series CHANCE ( precursor to Optima) buses lasted.  Same goes for the 2200 series Ikirus (precursor to NABI).  

[Busjack]

6 hours ago, artthouwill said:

To add to that, we know the 7500 series NABI buses barely lasted 4 years.    The 5800 series New Flyers lasted 12 years exactly.  

On the Pace side, I think the 8200 series Grumman Flxbles only lasted 12 years, which was a miracle considering the cracked frames they had.  I don't know how long the awful 2500 series CHANCE ( precursor to Optima) buses lasted.  Same goes for the 2200 series Ikirus (precursor to NABI).  

The 2500s were 10 year life buses, and were about that. (They were ENC, not Chance). Some of the Ikarus buses saw service on the NWTC routes and DG after leaving W. Somewhat back to the point, how long were the CTA fuel cell buses in service?

[artthouwill]

57 minutes ago, Busjack said:

The 2500s were 10 year life buses, and were about that. (They were ENC, not Chance). Some of the Ikarus buses saw service on the NWTC routes and DG after leaving W. Somewhat back to the point, how long were the CTA fuel cell buses in service?

I rode a 900 series New Flyer once on the 127 Madison/Roosevelt Circulator.  That route didn't last long and those buses barely outlasted that route.

[Busjack]

14 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

I rode a 900 series New Flyer once on the 127 Madison/Roosevelt Circulator.  That route didn't last long and those buses barely outlasted that route.

I wasn't referring to that, but to 5900-5902.

To go back to the world of CTA BS, a release of Oct. 1999 announced the beginning, and one of March 2000 announced the end of "a successful 2 year test." See also here for a picture.