And the next garage to get New Flyers is...

[jajuan]

Wow, I was thought that They'll never put TMCs back on #8 after 74th 4400s got transferred, I've never saw any Kedzie TMC on the #8 yet.

If you don't this week, you most likely never will. Kedzie's TMCs are almost all gone and given what rmadisonwi said this morning, they will be gone after this week.

[jajuan]

Forest Glen's entire fleet is currently ready for Bus Tracker. So, I wouldn't necessarily draw that conclusion.

Agreed. Everyone who wants to use FG going live with Bustracker later this month as proof that FG will get the next NFs can't make that conclusion with any certainty. The biggest reason being that the buses formerly assigned to FG that were numbered 60xx are now at 74th and are now shown on the Tracker. As noted months ago, with the exception of some 5300s at Chicago that were equipped for Bus Tracker, all the 6000s got the Tracker devices installed before the CTA decided that no more buses that would be retired within the next few years would get Bus Tracker devices. Bus tracker alone is not a valid justification to assume that FG will get NFs next.

Consolidation also can't really be used to argue against 74th getting new equipment because with half the 6000s slated to retired by next year, 74th would be short some buses if those retirements were constrained to those outside 74th. 74th operates more bus routes than it used to 15 years ago meaning it needs more buses now than then. For that reason along with Archer not remaining completely Nova for very long, I'm not convinced with the consolidation argument as reason that FG gets picked over 74th.

Do you really think CTA wants to open itself to negative press by ignoring 74th's need for new equipment after all the talk of focusing on service quality and replacing as many aging buses as possible as a way to help achieve the improvement of service quality? Even with consolidation, you want to get an even distribution of new equipment to keep service quality on par with the rest of the system.. Not to mention that Huberman has put all that focus on the higher cost of keeping older buses running compared to that of relatively newer ones. Do you really think the CTA wants to have media focus put on them willingly paying more money to operate all 6000s at 74th just to send new equipment to a garage that doesn't need it given FG has the Novas? That would be hypocritical after all this talk of cutting costs. And you better believe there will be more attention payed to CTA operating costs now that a solution had been found to Doomsday for the time being.

[wordguy]

Agreed. Everyone who wants to use FG going live with Bustracker later this month as proof that FG will get the next NFs can't make that conclusion with any certainty. The biggest reason being that the buses formerly assigned to FG that were numbered 60xx are now at 74th and are now shown on the Tracker. As noted months ago, with the exception of some 5300s at Chicago that were equipped for Bus Tracker, all the 6000s got the Tracker devices installed before the CTA decided that no more buses that would be retired within the next few years would get Bus Tracker devices. Bus tracker alone is not a valid justification to assume that FG will get NFs next.

Consolidation also can't really be used to argue against 74th getting new equipment because with half the 6000s slated to retired by next year, 74th would be short some buses if those retirements were constrained to those outside 74th. 74th operates more bus routes than it used to 15 years ago meaning it needs more buses now than then. For that reason along with Archer not remaining completely Nova for very long, I'm not convinced with the consolidation argument as reason that FG gets picked over 74th.

Do you really think CTA wants to open itself to negative press by ignoring 74th's need for new equipment after all the talk of focusing on service quality and replacing as many aging buses as possible as a way to help achieve the improvement of service quality? Even with consolidation, you want to get an even distribution of new equipment to keep service quality on par with the rest of the system.. Not to mention that Huberman has put all that focus on the higher cost of keeping older buses running compared to that of relatively newer ones. Do you really think the CTA wants to have media focus put on them willingly paying more money to operate all 6000s at 74th just to send new equipment to a garage that doesn't need it given FG has the Novas? That would be hypocritical after all this talk of cutting costs. And you better believe there will be more attention payed to CTA operating costs now that a solution had been found to Doomsday for the time being.

===Once again, I think Jajuan's analysis is right on the noggin. All the more reason too why I believe that series consolidation is an ill-advised, short-sighted plan. While this subject may be a little bit of a rehash, I think it might be worthwhile to revive it. I'll start a new thread tomorrow.

[Busjack]

All I can say is that CTA has been unpredictable, except for one thing...74th.

Also, I don't buy the press argument. Remember, Miss RedEye, when doing the article on 74th being fully equipped for BusTracker (then for 3 months) had to be told by a blogger that Halsted, the featured route, would be transferred to Kedzie on March 30 (actually March 23).

For that matter, the exteriors of the 6000s look better to me than those of some 6400s. Remember that I posited that a politico at Archer would try to get the 1000s back and Archer is now a garage that doesn't have NFs, if you want to play poker with rmadison. Also, my predicted swap of Novas from 7 to FG hasn't occurred, which would have if fleet consolidation were the only consideration.

We'll wait for the end of the month, as the K deliveries have to end soon. And, as far as that goes, since Halsted is getting some BRT hybrids, it is a good bet that other buses (especially NFs) now there will not be there long.

[jajuan]

All I can say is that CTA has been unpredictable, except for one thing...74th.

Also, I don't buy the press argument. Remember, Miss RedEye, when doing the article on 74th being fully equipped for BusTracker (then for 3 months) had to be told by a blogger that Halsted, the featured route, would be transferred to Kedzie on March 30 (actually March 23).

For that matter, the exteriors of the 6000s look better to me than those of some 6400s. Remember that I posited that a politico at Archer would try to get the 1000s back and Archer is now a garage that doesn't have NFs, if you want to play poker with rmadison. Also, my predicted swap of Novas from 7 to FG hasn't occurred, which would have if fleet consolidation were the only consideration.

We'll wait for the end of the month, as the K deliveries have to end soon. And, as far as that goes, since Halsted is getting some BRT hybrids, it is a good bet that other buses (especially NFs) now there will not be there long.

When I speak of the press, Miss RedEye and her colleagues at the RedEye don't necessarily come to mind. I'm thinking more in terms of the traditional hometown papers, the SunTimes and Trib. If any RedEye readers readers are offended, I apologize ahead of time because that's not the intent. Anywho those two have mentioned the state of CTA's aging bus fleet a number of times in recent years and the need for replacements for many of them. The age of plenty in the fleet has been mentioned as a big factor in the need for replacement. As mentioned to by Busjack in one of the Pace discussions if we want to see new equipment, it's up to us to contact our legislators telling them to pass a capital bill.

I've already learned not to play play poker with rmadison, but I won't comment on the politico who wants 1000s back at Archer because if that's the case, whoever's representing areas served by 74th has been sitting on his hands for almost a decade and a half. Plus I've been saying all along that consolidation can't be the only consideration because of the fact that Archer didn't remain all Nova for very long. That's why I don't buy that argument when used as a reason to pass up 74th yet again.

As for exterior looks, I think the TMCs are a good example that just because a bus's exterior looks good doesn't necessarily mean that the inside is just as good. Even before the transfers from NP on 3/23, Kedzie had plenty of TMCs that had good looking exteriors with the light blue reflective paint and all but were still junk. That was true of a lot of the junk sent down to Kedzie on 3/23.

Regardless of which garages get the remaining NFs, the focus should be on who actually needs new equipment based on who has junk in their fleets and not someone else's wishlist that doesn't take into consideration need, be it a politician or busfan. Enough of this ridiculous posturing and maneuvering by moving older equipment around in a way to steer new equipment to locations that didn't or don't necessarily need new equipment. This shouldn't have been necessary anyway because the total order of 1030 NF 1000s should have been enough that all eight garages could get new buses even with the retirement of the 1991 equipment. But CTA had to complicate matters with this idiotic consolidation plan. That's life in Chicago I guess, politics and questionable decisions.

One final thing, since Halsted will be Kedzie's only BRT route initially, I don't see its fleet being too much affected to start out.

[Busjack]

Regardless of which garages get the remaining NFs, the focus should be on who actually needs new equipment based on who has junk in their fleets and not someone else's wishlist that doesn't take into consideration need, be it a politician or busfan. Enough of this ridiculous posturing and maneuvering by moving older equipment around in a way to steer new equipment to locations that didn't or don't necessarily need new equipment. This shouldn't have been necessary anyway because the total order of 1030 NF 1000s should have been enough that all eight garages could get new buses even with the retirement of the 1991 equipment.

Most of what I said before was ruminating, anyway, but I note my agreement with the passage quoted above.

As far as junk is concerned, I was surprised to see a good number of 5300s on 29 State (now a 103rd route), although there were some NFs there too. Maybe stuff will even out by Thanksgiving, but I agree that I don't see the need for all the interim bus shuffling. There seems no need to overpack K with NFs when other garages seem to continue to have worse equipment. As I have said, more fodder for trainman.

[jajuan]

Most of what I said before was ruminating, anyway, but I note my agreement with the passage quoted above.

As far as junk is concerned, I was surprised to see a good number of 5300s on 29 State (now a 103rd route), although there were some NFs there too. Maybe stuff will even out by Thanksgiving, but I agree that I don't see the need for all the interim bus shuffling. There seems no need to overpack K with NFs when other garages seem to continue to have worse equipment. As I have said, more fodder for trainman.

Even though I do love the 1000s and live within the heart of the Kedzie service area, I also would have preferred new deliveries continue to go to garages that need them before coming back to Kedzie instead of moving older buses to spots where they were on the decrease to begin with and double back to a garage that already got new equipment. Take care other garages needs first as best you can, only then do you double back to previous garages if it turns out there are extra to spare that needs placement.

[BusHunter]

You know it's weird that no one was talking about consolidation before Bustracker was about to go live. I keep getting a nagging suspicion that consolidation has everything to do with Bustracker. Ask yourself how does 74th go live with #4400's if they still had them? The only two garages unaffected by this would have been A and F. By consolidating you put all your non tracker buses together to effectively buy you more time before too many garages go live and you have nowhere else to go next. Now this notion fits in nice and cozy with the next garage getting NF's being a #6000 garage. With #6000's having the tracker, you can send them to the next garage to go live after Kedzie (if Kedzie is next) possibly 77th or 103rd buying you another 2 months as a temporary fix to your Bustracker problems. While F or 74th gets Nf's over at least 2-3 months, you have a place to go after Kedzie.

[Busjack]

You know it's weird that no one was talking about consolidation before Bustracker was about to go live. I keep getting a nagging suspicion that consolidation has everything to do with Bustracker. Ask yourself how does 74th go live with #4400's if they still had them? The only two garages unaffected by this would have been A and F. By consolidating you put all your non tracker buses together to effectively buy you more time before too many garages go live and you have nowhere else to go next. Now this notion fits in nice and cozy with the next garage getting NF's being a #6000 garage. With #6000's having the tracker, you can send them to the next garage to go live after Kedzie (if Kedzie is next) possibly 77th or 103rd buying you another 2 months as a temporary fix to your Bustracker problems. While F or 74th gets Nf's over at least 2-3 months, you have a place to go after Kedzie.

There may be something to that. The emphasis in this forum has been on 6000s being consolidated, rather than moving the 4400s out. There is at least the coincidences that the second and third garages to get BusTracker were the ones with 6000s.

We never know what is going on inside CTA Management's heads. Maybe the BusTracker rollout was planned while the official line was that there was no way to replace the remaining 400 1995 models, but then the hybrid deal was made.

But this may be an answer to the question why some garages were consolidated and others not, or speculation why 103rd lost its 6000s, but might get them back.

[BusHunter]

To be honest the two TMC sightings I mentioned for the 8 were both on 3/23 when I was out hanging with friends for my birthday. I haven't had another sighting since then. It's been all New Flyer sightings for this route since then. And like you say Halsted is a good spot to see the newer Flyers as they've been coming in the last couple months. These past couple weeks I've been seeing or hearing about 1690s and 1700s on Halsted. Rmadison's statement about the TMCs being gone from Kedzie after this week is confirmed by a conversation I heard this morning between two bus operators from Kedzie. They both were talking about how they've been getting rid of a lot of TMCs and the newer Flyers had really been coming in fast the past few weeks. They both said that the last TMCs they have will be gone by this weekend. The only part of the conversation that I didn't believe is when one operator said that she heard Kedzie was getting 35 more buses numbered in the 1700s. I don't really see deliveries going past 1729 there or continuing past this week or next week at the latest.

Halsted seems to be for me the best place to see not only the New flyers, but the New Flyers that seem to be harder to sight. Like yesterday, #1698 and #1706 were on the #8, I haven't seen or heard anything about these two buses specifically. Or #1685 and #1712 that I missed the other day. (good reporting by the way nflyer22!!, it's good to hear about stuff you miss) Although, I still can't seem to find #1707 and #1708 even though there on here alot. I guess it's just my bad luck. Two buses I'm really starting to wonder what happened to them, #1631 and #1666. #1631 I think is still being delivered. #1666, well the number says it all. I wonder who's going to get #666, the NF 60 footer when it comes. It would make a nice halloween bus. As far as the Tmc's at Kedzie there is still about 20 -30 more. I don't think the next set of buses will do it for them. Maybe one more set or a half a set. More like Rmadison said initially, they should be done by the end of the month. Or I think the last week if you want to make it less vague. What you heard the operator say could be right, but I think she mean't up to #1734. Unless some more TMC's go somewhere else, It will be a tight squeeze to only give them up to #1729. I still say it all depends on how many are lost when the #127 says goodbye.

[jajuan]

Halsted seems to be for me the best place to see not only the New flyers, but the New Flyers that seem to be harder to sight. Like yesterday, #1698 and #1706 were on the #8, I haven't seen or heard anything about these two buses specifically. Or #1685 and #1712 that I missed the other day. (good reporting by the way nflyer22!!, it's good to hear about stuff you miss) Although, I still can't seem to find #1707 and #1708 even though there on here alot. I guess it's just my bad luck. Two buses I'm really starting to wonder what happened to them, #1631 and #1666. #1631 I think is still being delivered. #1666, well the number says it all. I wonder who's going to get #666, the NF 60 footer when it comes. It would make a nice halloween bus. As far as the Tmc's at Kedzie there is still about 20 -30 more. I don't think the next set of buses will do it for them. Maybe one more set or a half a set. More like Rmadison said initially, they should be done by the end of the month. Or I think the last week if you want to make it less vague. What you heard the operator say could be right, but I think she mean't up to #1734. Unless some more TMC's go somewhere else, It will be a tight squeeze to only give them up to #1729. I still say it all depends on how many are lost when the #127 says goodbye.

Again with the 7 and 38 getting expanded hours and the 12 getting increased service, there shouldn't be many buses lost from Kedzie if any at all. The same number of buses that don't go out on the 127 after it's gone next week, could easily add up to what's needed for the expanded service on the other three. Things could very well even out without any buses dropping from Kedzie's roster. Looking at the 127's schedule we're talking about 12 buses at most. So I don't think any buses are going anywhere with the expanded service on the other three. Those 12 can easily placed on the other three especially the 12 Roosevelt since the previous press releases stated cost savings from the 127 is transferring to the expanded 12 service.

[Guest]

Halsted seems to be for me the best place to see not only the New flyers, but the New Flyers that seem to be harder to sight. Like yesterday, #1698 and #1706 were on the #8, I haven't seen or heard anything about these two buses specifically. Or #1685 and #1712 that I missed the other day. (good reporting by the way nflyer22!!, it's good to hear about stuff you miss) Although, I still can't seem to find #1707 and #1708 even though there on here alot. I guess it's just my bad luck. Two buses I'm really starting to wonder what happened to them, #1631 and #1666. #1631 I think is still being delivered. #1666, well the number says it all. I wonder who's going to get #666, the NF 60 footer when it comes. It would make a nice halloween bus. As far as the Tmc's at Kedzie there is still about 20 -30 more. I don't think the next set of buses will do it for them. Maybe one more set or a half a set. More like Rmadison said initially, they should be done by the end of the month. Or I think the last week if you want to make it less vague. What you heard the operator say could be right, but I think she mean't up to #1734. Unless some more TMC's go somewhere else, It will be a tight squeeze to only give them up to #1729. I still say it all depends on how many are lost when the #127 says goodbye.

Last night while on the firetruck, we crossed Roosevelt at California I spotted NF #1707 EB on the 12 Roosevelt. The interior had unusal lighting.

[CircleSeven]

Last night while on the firetruck, we crossed Roosevelt at California I spotted NF #1707 EB on the 12 Roosevelt. The interior had unusal lighting.

I rode 1707 just before midnight last night. 647 was the run number and I got on WB from Michigan Avenue. At first when I seen that bus going east to the Museum, I thought the windows were slightly tinted but when I got on, I felt like I'm in some sort of hospital. The lighting were like light purplish flourescent, unlike the white flourescent. I'm thinking these lights were suppose to save some sort of energy or some sort. I also saw the driver's area which it appears to be the new protective shielding many folks were talking about, but it doesn't cover all that much.

[Guest]

Heres my take on FG getting NF, if they are getting New Flyers then training on these vehicles should be taking place so that operators are familiar with these models. But so far i havent seen any NF buses at FG or on any route out of FG. Im sure they will be getting them but Im just a bit puzzled as to why I havent seen any training going on at FG. If theyre recieving them soon they should be getting trained right now.

[BusHunter]

Heres my take on FG getting NF, if they are getting New Flyers then training on these vehicles should be taking place so that operators are familiar with these models. But so far i havent seen any NF buses at FG or on any route out of FG. Im sure they will be getting them but Im just a bit puzzled as to why I havent seen any training going on at FG. If theyre recieving them soon they should be getting trained right now.

I did see something fishy on the #56. #1656 parked at Madison/Michigan with a #56 destination sign. On the other hand, I haven't seen any NF's at 74th.

[Busjack]

I did see something fishy on the #56. #1656 parked at Madison/Michigan with a #56 destination sign. On the other hand, I haven't seen any NF's at 74th.

Of course, there were all those sightings of NFs on Ashland last year. Didn't become anything.

[jajuan]

I did see something fishy on the #56. #1656 parked at Madison/Michigan with a #56 destination sign. On the other hand, I haven't seen any NF's at 74th.

Nothing may come from that observation because 1656 has been back in service at Kedzie everyday after the day you made that sighting.

[BusHunter]

Of course, there were all those sightings of NFs on Ashland last year. Didn't become anything.

When was that? I don't remember that. Jajuan you are right in your statements. But what was it doing there that day with that destination sign? I know you want 74th to be next. I personally think the buses will end up at both FG and 74th. So I won't be too disappointed if I lose my prediction. If I'm right about the Bustracker theory, consolidation might fall apart anyway after all buses are delivered. Everyone would get NF's even Archer, but they might be a couple years old.

[Busjack]

When was that? I don't remember that.

For instance, see the thread following this post, and also following this one.

[BusHunter]

For instance, see the thread following this post, and also following this one.

Hmm! That's news to me. I have seen New Flyers on Ashland, but they were all pull ins to Kedzie or Chicago buses short turning mostly on the #70 and #66 routes. Now that I think of it didn't a FG Nova run on the #9 a year ago? I guess anything is possible. And you guys say they've never had low floors on Ashland. They have had at least three. (just a joke nothing personal) If it is any consolation I heard the 63rd operators say that 74th is the best place to work if you drive CTA buses for a living. In fact one of them said they left 77th for 74th because they claimed they had a better benefits package. So even though they have an old bus to drive it's a good place to work with no downtown service and better benefits. Also with a warming bus at the orange line/Ashland (now gone for the summer) 74th does really take care of their operators.

[jajuan]

When was that? I don't remember that. Jajuan you are right in your statements. But what was it doing there that day with that destination sign? I know you want 74th to be next. I personally think the buses will end up at both FG and 74th. So I won't be too disappointed if I lose my prediction. If I'm right about the Bustracker theory, consolidation might fall apart anyway after all buses are delivered. Everyone would get NF's even Archer, but they might be a couple years old.

Yeah it would be nice, but in the general sense I would like to see equipment actually going where it is needed and not going where it's not to satisfy anyone's wishlist especially a politician's given Busjack's statement of the politician in Archer's service umbrella.

[BusHunter]

Yeah it would be nice, but in the general sense I would like to see equipment actually going where it is needed and not going where it's not to satisfy anyone's wishlist especially a politician's given Busjack's statement of the politician in Archer's service umbrella.

I'd like to see equality myself. 74th shouldn't have to maintain all those old buses. I don't care for the consolidation either, but it is what it is. At least 74th got Bustracker 2nd out of the gate, and to date is the only garage with full implementation. As far as the political front, the influence could be still there Archer did receive Bustracker first. Also now with the Western plan Archer garage will be the testbed for traffic signal priority. It does make you wonder what's up.

[Busjack]

Also now with the Western plan Archer garage will be the testbed for traffic signal priority. It does make you wonder what's up.

Western is easier to explain, because (1) that is the grant, and (2) it is a preexisting, heavy X route that was promised BRT type improvements, such as TSP and street furniture. When we were debating the BRT grant, people were fairly surprised that Western wasn't one of the routes.

The only garage connected issue would be if the buses need extra equipment to trigger the signals, such as trainman having noted that Pace buses marked SP meant signal priority, so they could be assigned to 322.

[nflyer22]

Western is easier to explain, because (1) that is the grant, and (2) it is a preexisting, heavy X route that was promised BRT type improvements, such as TSP and street furniture. When we were debating the BRT grant, people were fairly surprised that Western wasn't one of the routes.

The only garage connected issue would be if the buses need extra equipment to trigger the signals, such as trainman having noted that Pace buses marked SP meant signal priority, so they could be assigned to 322.

I'm guessing that seeing how Western already has the express route (X49) the city and probably CTA thought best of placing the BRT service elsewhere. The thing that confuses me is that Jeffery was one of the candidates for it, even if it has the 14 Jeffery Express route on it. But like all of you have said, who knows what's going on, whether it'd be on the streets or at headquarters.

Off topic, saw 1700 and 1703 and a couple others, forgot what numbers, on the 8 Halsted today. I dunno if you out there have noticed this, but the newer New Flyers with LEDs inside appear to be getting some sort of "filter" or cover for them, making the light somewhat blurry, like the 4400s, 5300s, 5800s, and 6000s.

[jajuan]

Halsted seems to be for me the best place to see not only the New flyers, but the New Flyers that seem to be harder to sight. Like yesterday, #1698 and #1706 were on the #8, I haven't seen or heard anything about these two buses specifically. Or #1685 and #1712 that I missed the other day. (good reporting by the way nflyer22!!, it's good to hear about stuff you miss) Although, I still can't seem to find #1707 and #1708 even though there on here alot. I guess it's just my bad luck. Two buses I'm really starting to wonder what happened to them, #1631 and #1666. #1631 I think is still being delivered. #1666, well the number says it all. I wonder who's going to get #666, the NF 60 footer when it comes. It would make a nice halloween bus. As far as the Tmc's at Kedzie there is still about 20 -30 more. I don't think the next set of buses will do it for them. Maybe one more set or a half a set. More like Rmadison said initially, they should be done by the end of the month. Or I think the last week if you want to make it less vague. What you heard the operator say could be right, but I think she mean't up to #1734. Unless some more TMC's go somewhere else, It will be a tight squeeze to only give them up to #1729. I still say it all depends on how many are lost when the #127 says goodbye.

Well the mystery of 1666 being here or not is solved. It is here. It's in service on the 12 Roosevelt today. Just thought I'd let you know since you and I both have been wondering if it was ever delivered with there not being a reported sighting of it until today.