And the next garage to get New Flyers is...

[tobuadantoq]

1430 is at 103.

[jajuan]

Definitely Forest Glen is the next one because Like 74th, 6000s Flexibles are retirement in progress. Novas which were transfered from Chicago maybe transfered again to possibly North Park as 5800s are going to be retired.

Actually the rosters come out to be:

Chicago: 1000-1121, 1330-1429

Kedzie: 1122-1225, 1630-1730, 800-809, 900-909 (can't forget the hybrids)

77th: 1226-1329

74th: 1731-1760 (already reported they only get 30)

NP odd and 103rd even: 1430-1629, 1761-?

FG will not be next. It's also been reported NP and 103rd will be next with another split of buses between them. It's not known yet if that split will be like before with NP getting odd and 103rd even. It might be the other way around this time. One logical reason 74th got new buses now suggested by Trainman is that with 74th having more unrehabbed 6000s than FG, they could have been running into a problem of having buses that just couldn't be put back together in any workable condition leaving 74th with a shortage of buses. CTA has basically gone back to the main plan of the NFs' use to push the TMCs and 5300s out. That means 77th comes after NP and 103rd. (Chicago isn't likely to get any further NFs because the 5300s it has are basically extra buses it needs until the end of 3Track operations which is coming toward the end of this year). If FG is to get 1000s it would be what extras are left to deliver after the TMCs and 5300s are kaput.

[Busjack]

That means 77th comes after NP and 103rd. (Chicago isn't likely to get any further NFs because the 5300s it has are basically extra buses it needs until the end of 3Track operations which is coming toward the end of this year)

Except that 77th will undoubtedly get DE60LFs. As I mentioned, there would only be about 70 40s to mess around with.

[jajuan]

Except that 77th will undoubtedly get DE60LFs. As I mentioned, there would only be about 70 40s to mess around with.

True. The main pattern though, with the exception of 74th, has been to place the D40LFs at garages that have or had TMCs and Flx-5300s. Given that the Novas are older, it's possible that some of those may get displaced for DE60LFs.

[Buslover88]

1430 is at 103.

We've all known that for the longest time.

Definitely Forest Glen is the next one because Like 74th, 6000s Flexibles are retirement in progress. Novas which were transfered from Chicago maybe transfered again to possibly North Park as 5800s are going to be retired.

Nope, FG isn't going to be next (even though some people want it to be next). A couple of garages still have Flxibles (1991) and TMCs to get rid of, so FG can't be next.

[tobuadantoq]

103 needs NF, as well as 77. Adding Chicago and North Park for little bit. Kedzie is done. Trading Former Chicago Novas from Forest Glen to North Park, then add NF to Forest Glen is quiet enough.

[jajuan]

103 needs NF, as well as 77. Adding Chicago and North Park for little bit. Kedzie is done. Trading Former Chicago Novas from Forest Glen to North Park, then add NF to Forest Glen is quiet enough.

Wishful thinking especially considering things are already set for NP to get NFs along with 103rd simultaneously. They're not going to transfer Novas from FG to NP just to satisfy someone's wish to see a particular bus go to FG. Not considering the side delivery to 74th most likely to fill a bus shortage, the NFs are basically going to garages that still have 1991 buses. FG does not fit the bill like it or not. If it is to get NFs out of those left it would be at the very end of deliveries after all the 4400s and 5300s have been retired.

[rmadisonwi]

Before people go crazy: some buses are being temporarily shifted northward to help out with the Blue Line shuttle starting this week.

[jajuan]

Before people go crazy: some buses are being temporarily shifted northward to help out with the Blue Line shuttle starting this week.

Probably explains sightings of 1317 and 1320 up near Forest Glen this weekend along with your sighting of 1730 on 146 last night and my sighting of that same bus today on the 22 Clark.

BTW: That NB destination sign on at least one Clark St bus has been adjusted to be a little less confusing. It read '22 CLARK' with a flip to '22 HOWARD/ RED LN'. I didn't get to see the bus number because I was in a car at the time and we were traveling a bit too fast to catch a clear look.

[Buslover88]

Before people go crazy: some buses are being temporarily shifted northward to help out with the Blue Line shuttle starting this week.

Well, I think that's good for the Blue Line costumers. BTW, I don't think anybody will go crazy about something like that.

Probably explains sightings of 1317 and 1320 up near Forest Glen this weekend along with your sighting of 1730 on 146 last night and my sighting of that same bus today on the 22 Clark.

BTW: That NB destination sign on at least one Clark St bus has been adjusted to be a little less confusing. It read '22 CLARK' with a flip to '22 HOWARD/ RED LN'. I didn't get to see the bus number because I was in a car at the time and we were traveling a bit too fast to catch a clear look.

I think it explains that also. And that's good the sign for #22 buses were changed a bit.

[wordguy]

Probably explains sightings of 1317 and 1320 up near Forest Glen this weekend along with your sighting of 1730 on 146 last night and my sighting of that same bus today on the 22 Clark.

BTW: That NB destination sign on at least one Clark St bus has been adjusted to be a little less confusing. It read '22 CLARK' with a flip to '22 HOWARD/ RED LN'. I didn't get to see the bus number because I was in a car at the time and we were traveling a bit too fast to catch a clear look.

===Actually, I believe the only sighting near FG was of 1317. Several New Flyers, including 1320, as well as 1319, 1328, 1400, 1402, 1726, & 1730 have been operating along North Park routes most likely as loaners to provide additional service during the Taste of Chicago as others have stated. (At first I mistakenly believed that the buses borrowed from 77th might have been reassignments.)

Judging by the sighting of 1317, now that The Taste is finished, it possible that the loaners to North Park will be the same buses going to The Glen? Or will FG instead get 6000s displaced from 74th? I guess we'll know soon.

[BusHunter]

Before people go crazy: some buses are being temporarily shifted northward to help out with the Blue Line shuttle starting this week.

you mean I might finally get a chance to see NF's at FG !! Or will they all be stationed at NP. (more likely) You know that what Rmadison said all along is coming true. Consolidation. (at least with 40 footers) NF's at NP, 103rd, Kedzie and Chicago (minus a couple #5300's). Nova's at Archer and most likely coming soon to FG. The only question marks are 77th and 74th. You could easily wipe out 40 -45 TMC's if you give them at least 30 #600's. The last 70 #1000's most likely would end up in either location, but if 77th never transfers the Nova's over they won't get the last of the order. That seems to be their missing link. What #6000's are left will be most likely at 74th. What #1000's are displaced will head to 77th. If more than 30 are displaced they will head to 74th. I think as many as 60 or 70 #1000's. So 74th I think will end up with 100 #1000's in the end. As Buslover88 and other's would be happy to hear FG will be shut out on these orders. That's why FG and Archer end up with Optima's. This is their new bus like it or not. This is what I believe the end result will be.

[jajuan]

===Actually, I believe the only sighting near FG was of 1317. Several New Flyers, including 1320, as well as 1319, 1328, 1400, 1402, 1726, & 1730 have been operating along North Park routes most likely as loaners to provide additional service during the Taste of Chicago as others have stated. (At first I mistakenly believed that the buses borrowed from 77th might have been reassignments.)

Judging by the sighting of 1317, now that The Taste is finished, it possible that the loaners to North Park will be the same buses going to The Glen? Or will FG instead get 6000s displaced from 74th? I guess we'll know soon.

You're right. 1320 was seen along Broadway. Looking at the list of buses loaned to NP and seeing which garages did so (77th, Chicago, and Kedzie), two (77th and Kedzie) ended up getting loans from 74th for extra Taste of Chicago service for people leaving the Taste on the nights of July 3rd and 4th. That's interesting.

Rmadison wasn't really explicit about which garage up north would get loans for the Blue Line shuttle bus service over the next three weeks, so until tomorrow it's a question of will it be FG or NP that handles the shuttle service.

In response to your other comment Bushunter, no one would be happy to see FG shut out of any bus orders. The point here is that out of the garages that doesn't have 1991 buses, 74th needed and still needs new buses the most. Before getting those 30 buses, likely from a shortage of operable buses as Trainman suggests, 74th hadn't gotten any new buses since just after its opening in 1995, 13 years. Most of us, myself included, had been pushing the point that those in charge of bus garage assignments need to drop the practice of using certain garages as dumping grounds for other garages' junk whenever new bus orders are delivered so that ALL garages have better chances of getting new equipment, if not from a current bus order then the next one immediately following. There is absolutely no reason for any garage to have to wait 13 years (74th before getting 30 NFs) or 14 years (103rd before getting the NABIs) to get new equipment when bus orders are being made. There definitely shouldn't be garages managing to get on successive delivery list when other garages have gotten nothing. Everyone has dumped on Archer getting that favorable treatment because it managed to be on both the NOVA delivery list and the NF list. Actually if you look at all deliveries from 1991 to now 77th has gotten new buses more times than all the rest. It got TMCs, Flx 6000s, Novas, NABIs, and NFs. In every bus delivery year, 77th managed to be on a delivery list for a model being delivered that year.

[BusHunter]

You're right. 1320 was seen along Broadway. Looking at the list of buses loaned to NP and seeing which garages did so (77th, Chicago, and Kedzie), two (77th and Kedzie) ended up getting loans from 74th for extra Taste of Chicago service for people leaving the Taste on the nights of July 3rd and 4th. That's interesting.

Rmadison wasn't really explicit about which garage up north would get loans for the Blue Line shuttle bus service over the next three weeks, so until tomorrow it's a question of will it be FG or NP that handles the shuttle service.

In response to your other comment Bushunter, no one would be happy to see FG shut out of any bus orders. The point here is that out of the garages that doesn't have 1991 buses, 74th needed and still needs new buses the most. Before getting those 30 buses, likely from a shortage of operable buses as Trainman suggests, 74th hadn't gotten any new buses since just after its opening in 1995, 13 years. Most of us, myself included, had been pushing the point that those in charge of bus garage assignments need to drop the practice of using certain garages as dumping grounds for other garages' junk whenever new bus orders are delivered so that ALL garages have better chances of getting new equipment, if not from a current bus order then the next one immediately following. There is absolutely no reason for any garage to have to wait 13 years (74th before getting 30 NFs) or 14 years (103rd before getting the NABIs) to get new equipment when bus orders are being made. There definitely should be garages managing to get on successive delivery list when other garages have gotten nothing. Everyone has dumped on Archer getting that favorable treatment because it managed to be on both the NOVA delivery list and the NF list. Actually if you look at all deliveries from 1991 to now 77th has gotten new buses more times than all the rest. It got TMCs, Flx 6000s, Novas, NABIs, and NFs. In every bus delivery year, 77th managed to be on a delivery list for a model being delivered that year.

I'm just stating the reality of the situation. Someone has to be the Garage to get nothing or you can't consolidate. Now every garage has had NF's except FG. 30 buses is better than nothing at 74th, besides they'll get more for sure. 77th does always get everything and also they get it first. That's the advantage to being next to south shops. Also of having most of the highest ridership routes in your garage.

[artthouwill]

Hello Group:

103rd generally had been a dumping ground (and still is to a degree)until the NABI arrivals. They will finally get rid of the 4400s and 5300s soon.

77th seemingly gets all new deliveries. Someone gave the examples of TMCs, 6000 Flxs, Novas, NABIs, and NFs. But remember 77th lost its 6000s for 5300s, gave up some NABIs to 103rd and NP. Even before 1991 when 77th got new buses, they eventually got swapped for older junk. For example, 77th once had 9600s, then lost them all. 77th had the MAN Americanas when they were new and swapped with those awful 9800 NFs. One benefit of 77th getting new buses all the time is its proximity to South Shops so that when there are major glitches, the repair center is a short short short distance away.

74this definitely a stepchild garage. If not for a series of bus problems, they wouldn't have the 30 NFs they are getting now. To be honest, I would expect FG to get some Novas from 77th at some point and FG to give up some FLXs to 74th and 74th to lose those 30 buses. When the time comes for all of the 6000s to go, I wouldn't be surprised if they received someone else's junk.

Archer has only missed 2 new deliveries that I can recall, Americanas and NABIs. Of course, they lost the NFs, but generally this garage seems to be well taken care of.

Kedzie is becoming a darling garage because of the lakefront routes and it serves all parts of the city. The lack of space there should be a major concern though, but will CTA carpetbag on the vacant land surrounding the garage or would it be possible to purchase it and build an addition to the current facilty?

Chicago Avenue - No comment

NP is a darling garage. The only reason they had an abundance of TMCs, Americanas (in the past) was for capacity purposes with the crowding their routes had.

FG will need to replace its 6000s even though because of the NOvas, they are not in the dire straits that 74th is, but truth be told, it is time for the 6000s to be retired.

Has anyone considered the Novas are 8 years old and past their midlife? It will not be long before the time to replace them will come.

[Buslover88]

74th is definitely a stepchild garage. If not for a series of bus problems, they wouldn't have the 30 NFs they are getting now. To be honest, I would expect FG to get some Novas from 77th at some point and FG to give up some FLXs to 74th and 74th to lose those 30 buses. When the time comes for all of the 6000s to go, I wouldn't be surprised if they received someone else's junk.

You sort of confused me here. Do you mean 74th should get old equipment in your opinion, or do you mean CTA will end up make 74th give up their 30 New Flyer buses?

Chicago Avenue - No comment

Why is there no comment about Chicago? .

Has anyone considered the Novas are 8 years old and past their midlife? It will not be long before the time to replace them will come.

Yes, we've considered it (or at least I have), but the Novas are in good condition. And by the way, 6 years in the CTA is when a bus starts passing their midlife.

The point here is that out of the garages that doesn't have 1991 buses, 74th needed and still needs new buses the most. Before getting those 30 buses, likely from a shortage of operable buses as Trainman suggests, 74th hadn't gotten any new buses since just after its opening in 1995, 13 years. Most of us, myself included, had been pushing the point that those in charge of bus garage assignments need to drop the practice of using certain garages as dumping grounds for other garages' junk whenever new bus orders are delivered so that ALL garages have better chances of getting new equipment, if not from a current bus order then the next one immediately following. There is absolutely no reason for any garage to have to wait 13 years (74th before getting 30 NFs) or 14 years (103rd before getting the NABIs) to get new equipment when bus orders are being made. There definitely should be garages managing to get on successive delivery list when other garages have gotten nothing. Everyone has dumped on Archer getting that favorable treatment because it managed to be on both the NOVA delivery list and the NF list. Actually if you look at all deliveries from 1991 to now 77th has gotten new buses more times than all the rest. It got TMCs, Flx 6000s, Novas, NABIs, and NFs. In every bus delivery year, 77th managed to be on a delivery list for a model being delivered that year.

I agree on all of this.

In response to your other comment Bushunter, no one would be happy to see FG shut out of any bus orders.

Well, i'm sorry to say, but you can count me out of that (for a few more years) because I still strongly believe that FG shouldn't be getting anything new for a couple of more years, then again, neither should 77th.

[jajuan]

77th seemingly gets all new deliveries. Someone gave the examples of TMCs, 6000 Flxs, Novas, NABIs, and NFs. But remember 77th lost its 6000s for 5300s, gave up some NABIs to 103rd and NP. Even before 1991 when 77th got new buses, they eventually got swapped for older junk. For example, 77th once had 9600s, then lost them all. 77th had the MAN Americanas when they were new and swapped with those awful 9800 NFs. One benefit of 77th getting new buses all the time is its proximity to South Shops so that when there are major glitches, the repair center is a short short short distance away.

That's how 77th manages to stay on delivery lists. They trade buses from previous new deliveries for older junk.

74this definitely a stepchild garage. If not for a series of bus problems, they wouldn't have the 30 NFs they are getting now. To be honest, I would expect FG to get some Novas from 77th at some point and FG to give up some FLXs to 74th and 74th to lose those 30 buses. When the time comes for all of the 6000s to go, I wouldn't be surprised if they received someone else's junk.

Given that CTA plans to scrap all the 5800s and half, if not more, of the 6000s, that doesn't leave much room for them to dump junk on 74th to make them lose what NFs they got. Too many new buses including the hybrid Arctics are coming in, for once, for that to happen in too high of a likelihood.

[jajuan]

Well, i'm sorry to say, but you can count me out of that (for a few more years) because I still strongly believe that FG shouldn't be getting anything new for a couple of more years, then again, neither should 77th.

I can't agree with you here. That's part of the inefficient way of doing things that created some of the the headaches with riding routes from 103rd and 74th for so many years. Things have gotten a bit better with 103rd getting NFs, but they still have too many TMCs and 5300s, that create breakdown issues. Equipment should be spread around as equitably as possible to keep service across the system moving as smoothly as possible.

[Buslover88]

I can't agree with you here. That's part of the inefficient way of doing things that created some of the headaches with riding routes from 103rd and 74th for so many years. Things have gotten a bit better with 103rd getting NFs, but they still have too many TMCs and 5300s, that creates breakdown issues. Equipment should be spread around as equitably as possible to keep service across the system moving as smoothly as possible.

All I said here was that FG shouldn't be getting anything new for a couple of more years. And 77th shouldn't either because they always get new buses, which is unfair. About equipment being spread around, well, you don't think FG has pretty fair equipment, do you? I for one think so and that is why I said FG shouldn't be getting anything new for a couple of years. Another reason, in my opinion, why FG should not have new buses for a couple of more years is because they already have the Optimas (altough they don't do that much good on the big routes like #56 or #77). Finally, I wouldn't complain about 103rd still having lots of old buses much longer, they're getting more new buses.

[jajuan]

All I said here was that FG shouldn't be getting anything new for a couple of more years. And 77th shouldn't either because they always get new buses, which is unfair. About equipment being spread around, well, you don't think FG has pretty fair equipment, do you? I for one think so and that is why I said FG shouldn't be getting anything new for a couple of years. Another reason, in my opinion, why FG should not have new buses for a couple of more years is because they already have the Optimas (altough they don't do that much good on the big routes like #56 or #77). Finally, I wouldn't complain about 103rd still having lots of old buses much longer, they're getting more new buses.

I understand what you meant. I still disagree overall because it's too easy to slip back into the same pattern that lead to the years of neglect for 74th (which has been given some attention even if it is a VERY small one) and 103rd (which is finally getting completely corrected) with that line of thinking. I think we should avoid avenues that lead to the old pattern we dislike so much. Yes FG's buses are in fair condition, but one thing we can't ignore is the point made by some who opposed my overall view in this discussion. FG's Novas are 7 years old, a bit pass their operable midlife. Yes they got the Optimas, but being only 30 ft long, they're of little use to those of us who ride the more highly used routes that are assigned to FG. If we just look at FGs Flx-6000s alone, FG will probably need newer equipment sooner than the 2011 or 2012 than you were suggesting they wait to get new buses beyond the much smaller Optimas when we were discussing 74th getting NFs in a separate thread. We can't say it's wrong to deny adequate new equipment at 74th or 103rd for a decade or more and then turn around and suggest doing to do the same to another garage because that garage had more opportunities at new equipment deliveries. That just makes us hypocrites.

[Guest]

Im just curious on how they plan to fit the 150 new artics at the garages they will operate out of. Certainly there will be quite a number of buses that will either be replaced or shifted. Whatever the case may be I think FG will be getting something in the near future, I wont discount the NF 40ft.

[Buslover88]

FG's Novas are 7 years old, a bit pass their operable midlife. Yes they got the Optimas, but being only 30 ft long, they're of little use to those of us who ride the more highly used routes that are assigned to FG. If we just look at FGs Flx-6000s alone, FG will probably need newer equipment sooner than the 2011 or 2012 than you were suggesting they wait to get new buses beyond the much smaller Optimas when we were discussing 74th getting NFs in a separate thread.

Wow. You made me nearly speechless. Well, all i'm going to say is that I could care less that FG gets all the new equipment in the world (and it probably will anyway), but let me say this, you people have better not complain anymore about why some garages get new equipment while others don't. Its just something CTA wants to do and if they want to do that, let them. Besides, when has the riding public ever complained about certain buses? Hardly ever. In fact, the riding public couldn't care at all about what garage gets what (and some don't even care about garages).

This finishes my rant so far, but one last thing, I don't think i'll be back here on this topic, its getting a bit overrated.

[jajuan]

Wow. You made me nearly speechless. Well, all i'm going to say is that I could care less that FG gets all the new equipment in the world (and it probably will anyway), but let me say this, you people have better not complain anymore about why some garages get new equipment while others don't. Its just something CTA wants to do and if they want to do that, let them. Besides, when has the riding public ever complained about certain buses? Hardly ever. In fact, the riding public couldn't care at all about what garage gets what (and some don't even care about garages).

This finishes my rant so far, but one last thing, I don't think i'll be back here on this topic, its getting a bit overrated.

Well I'm sorry you can't see that being upset about 74th or 103rd going long stretches without new equipment includes not seeing ANY garage not get new equipment during regular enough intervals to keep the entire system running smoothly. That's why I disagreed with the consolidation plan from day one. Ok maybe FG doesn't get NF 1000s but they should get something sooner than a few years. The 6000s are now aging and the Novas very soon will be. Yes FG got Optimas, but at only 30 ft long I'm going to emphasize they can't be adequately used on more than FG's currently assigned routes. 30 ft buses can only be used on certain routes without having a negative affect on service. Most of the system functions adequately with 40 ft minimum buses. You don't deny replacement of aging 40 footers for a decade just because that garage got a few 30 footers. We can disagree on different issues without getting too steadfast in our opposing views to be willing to see compromise. That's the type of thing that makes government operations stagnant and ineffective on important issues.

[Buslover88]

Well I'm sorry you can't see that being upset about 74th or 103rd going long stretches without new equipment includes not seeing ANY garage not get new equipment during regular enough intervals to keep the entire system running smoothly. That's why I disagreed with the consolidation plan from day one.

Well, what angered me was the fact that the northside got everything new while the southside got really nothing, so I just merely suggested the northside should be rejected now, but reading over this topic again, I see i'm wrong. And just to let you know, but i've been against the consolidation plan since day one too.

Ok maybe FG doesn't get NF 1000s but they should get something sooner than a few years. The 6000s are now aging and the Novas very soon will be. Yes FG got Optimas, but at only 30 ft long I'm going to emphasize they can't be adequately used on more than FG's currently assigned routes. 30 ft buses can only be used on certain routes without having a negative affect on service.

That was the point I was trying to make, FG shouldn't get the brand new New Flyers (numbers #18XX or #19XX and above). I'd support them getting new buses if it were more Novas or the oldest 1000s here so far.

Most of the system functions adequately with 40 ft minimum buses. You don't deny replacement of aging 40 footers for a decade just because that garage got a few 30 footers.

I realize that now.

We can disagree on different issues without getting too steadfast in our opposing views to be willing to see compromise. That's the type of thing that makes government operations stagnant and ineffective on important issues.

Well, I do apologize for getting mad. I'm sorry. I just got too excited about this debate and things are a bit crazy right now.

[jajuan]

Well, what angered me was the fact that the northside got everything new while the southside got really nothing, so I just merely suggested the northside should be rejected now, but reading over this topic again, I see i'm wrong. And just to let you know, but i've been against the consolidation plan since day one too.

That was the point I was trying to make, FG shouldn't get the brand new New Flyers (numbers #18XX or #19XX and above). I'd support them getting new buses if it were more Novas or the oldest 1000s here so far.

I realize that now.

Well, I do apologize for getting mad. I'm sorry. I just got too excited about this debate and things are a bit crazy right now.

No need to apologize. Like I said, I understood your point and some of what was upsetting you. That's part of the reason why sometimes I wait an hour or more before I respond to certain points, so that I can think over all of what they're saying to give a fair response. :lol: