Circle Line / Gray Line

[Mike Payne]

Are any of you folks Business Owners, and belong to your local Chamber of Commerce?  Their motivations are to grow their Businesses and Communities (like my employer)

Unless you have a position like that, we are all just on these Transit Forums due to personal interest -- a "hobby", like building ships-in-a-bottle; not a real life/real world concern, like a Business Owner's sales and profits are to them.

The guy who signs my Paycheck is a successful Business Owner, and member of the Lisle Chamber of Commerce; I respect his opinion - and those of other Business Owners like him;

I respect you folks opinions also, but an established BO's opinions mean A LOT more to me empirically, than just  "hobbyists" like we are!

.

remember: Stay civil .....

[sw4400]

Ok, it's become apparent that civility is not going to reign supreme.... last post was a slap in the face of all forum members whether you intended it to be or not, @Mike Payne. That is extremely offensive. Some of these forum members are affiliated with the CTA! I find this forum as a place to enjoy, read and interact with those who also enjoy, read and discuss about CTA, Metra and PACE, as well as other Transit Forums throughout the US & World. I don't think of it as a "Ship In A Bottle" hobby, more like a "Facebook for Transit Enthusiasts".

On that note, @garmon757.... I think this thread has run it course and it would be best to just lock it. You've tried to get civility back here.... I tried, and it's still a verbal back and forth.

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

43 minutes ago, sw4400 said:

Ok, it's become apparent that civility is not going to reign supreme.... last post was a slap in the face of all forum members whether you intended it to be or not, @Mike Payne. That is extremely offensive. Some of these forum members are affiliated with the CTA! I find this forum as a place to enjoy, read and interact with those who also enjoy, read and discuss about CTA, Metra and PACE, as well as other Transit Forums throughout the US & World. I don't think of it as a "Ship In A Bottle" hobby, more like a "Facebook for Transit Enthusiasts".

On that note, @garmon757.... I think this thread has run it course and it would be best to just lock it. You've tried to get civility back here.... I tried, and it's still a verbal back and forth.

Unfortunately locking the topic may be the right choice, as I've been following this thread but haven't seen anything productive come out of it. I fail to see how a Gray Line would work perfectly.

I like your Facebook For Transit Enthusiasts analogy too. This forum is a great place for conversing with people who share interests, and I've learned a lot participating on this forum. 

[ChicagoNova]

Where is the link that talks about demolishing the Green Line?

[sw4400]

1 hour ago, MTRSP1900-CTA3200 said:

Unfortunately locking the topic may be the right choice, as I've been following this thread but haven't seen anything productive come out of it. I fail to see how a Gray Line would work perfectly.

I like your Facebook For Transit Enthusiasts analogy too. This forum is a great place for conversing with people who share interests, and I've learned a lot participating on this forum. 

If it stayed on point about the Circle Line/Grey Line, yes. But all I've seen as of late is banter back and forth with barbs and insults even with garmon's requests to stop it and my adding in to try to restore some semblance of order.

[jajuan]

On 7/9/2016 at 4:23 PM, artthouwill said:

At the risk of my own sanity,  I'm going to play along with this Gray Line for a moment.   Let me assure 20 minutes headway during peak times on the Blue Island branch and 20 minutes headway during peak times on the South Chicago branch.   I chose 20 minutes to give stations from 63rd northward 10 minute headways.  Also I did it to account for train passage at Halsted on the Blue Island branch since the branch mostly consists of one track. 

It seems we need another platform at Kensington to put the Gray Line trains on the inner tracks and Metra and NICTD trains on the outer tracks.   We also must build a new crossover for NICTD trains.  Also at Kensington and 57th, and 11th,CTA CAS will man the stations with fare controls and those wishing to ride Metra must purchase a ticket and/or show a valid Metra ticket to the CTA agent to gain access to the platform.   

Now what do we do at Van Buren?   Must we have a CTA agent and fare controls there also?   The congestion there currently is bad enough that some of the pm locals actually board on the innermost inbound track.

What about Randolph/Millennium station?   Does the NICTD have to share Metra's station while the Gray Line trains use the current South Shore platforms? 

Now we have increased electricity costs, more agents to hire for all of those Gray Line stations   Guess who stands to lose?   The Red line.  So now the discrepancy between south Red line ridership and north Red line ridership grows even more.  There's also the south side Green line that could lose the few riders it has.  How much will it cost to demolish the Green Line including the brand spanking new McCormick station? 

With the current express bus service along the south lakefront,  the South Chicago branch is sure to continue to run empty trains,  just more frequently.   CTA has to pay Metra to ru empty trains with no cost recovery whatsoever. 

Contrary to your beliefs,  there is always and will always be train conflicts along this corridor,  Gray Line or not. However,  Gray Line service as you propose increases the likelihood and severity of conflicts.   We haven't even started to discuss the possibility of increased traffic with the proposed West Lake service. 

 

I'm coming out of fantasy now. ...Won't you join me?

?  

You explain perfectly what I was speaking about when I mentioned this proposal doesn't seem to be able to work around the fact that would be train conflicts that cause headaches CTA does not need. 

2 hours ago, sw4400 said:

If it stayed on point about the Circle Line/Grey Line, yes. But all I've seen as of late is banter back and forth with barbs and insults even with garmon's requests to stop it and my adding in to try to restore some semblance of order.

Ok I think we might be getting a little carried away and starting to confuse disagreement with being uncivil. Outside of that last post from Mike Payne throwing the shot at the whole forum, the latest exchange has been tame compared to a few days ago. There's always going to be some form of disagreement of ideas on here. That's normal and that's healthy because it keeps the forum from being boring. If we're going to call every disagreement a fall into incivility them we may as well shut down and close every forum topic because each one has at least one bit of healthy debate. Now as long as things don't fall into name calling and personally directed insults against each other, then all shall be well. So let's all just calm down and not be so quick to react to things. We also just need to know when to walk away from a particular line of discussion when we see that the other side is not going to back off a point or unable to reexamine ideas and say well maybe this won't work as much as I thought even with adjustments made. But we can't fall in this trap of disagreement with and criticisms of the actual ideas being the same as personal barbs and attacks or else there's no need in having a forum because everyone's going to be scared to share his idea if it comes in conflict with someone else's. 

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

1 hour ago, jajuan said:

Ok I think we might be getting a little carried away and starting to confuse disagreement with being uncivil. Outside of that last post from Mike Payne throwing the shot at the whole forum, the latest exchange has been tame compared to a few days ago. There's always going to be some form of disagreement of ideas on here. That's normal and that's healthy because it keeps the forum from being boring. If we're going to call every disagreement a fall into incivility them we may as well shut down and close every forum topic because each one has at least one bit of healthy debate. Now as long as things don't fall into name calling and personally directed insults against each other, then all shall be well. So let's all just calm down and not be so quick to react to things. We also just need to know when to walk away from a particular line of discussion when we see that the other side is not going to back off a point or unable to reexamine ideas and say well maybe this won't work as much as I thought even with adjustments made. But we can't fall in this trap of disagreement with and criticisms of the actual ideas being the same as personal barbs and attacks or else there's no need in having a forum because everyone's going to be scared to share his idea if it comes in conflict with someone else's. 

I agree with your statement, but I don't think he's confusing anything yet. However, considering how this thread has been going, I can see why this would pop up.

Garmon757 himself said to keep it civil because he felt that this conversation was heading south, and in the end he and the other moderators have final say on the outcome of this thread. Other than all of our future behavior on this thread, we can't alter the course of this thread by saying people are confusing this and that. I'd love a friendly debate as much as you, but when I see all the caps lock and moderators jumping in, I think I can see where sw4400 is coming from.

[artthouwill]

22 hours ago, Mike Payne said:

Where did demolishing the Green Line come from?

 I'm not in any "fantasy", but I do see that I can be insulted unrestrained -- without any recourse!

And I notice no one will comment on CMME's efforts (multiple local Chambers of Commerce, made up of local Business Owners -- But they don't know what their own communities need); what do you think of CMME art: http://www.modernmetraelectric.org

remember sw4400 said to be more "civil"!

I have been very civil.   It would be a shame for this thread to be locked because of disagreement becoming personal.   And I know that there are multiple efforts to see the Gray Line proposal become realized.   My opinion is that this isn't practical or fiscally doable.   I believe that if this were to come to pass, you will see a CTA fare hike with fares around $3.00 which is closer to the current Metra fares that the targeted demographic can't currently afford.   Remember that about half of CTA operating budget must come from the farebox.  If you increase operating costs (pay Metra for personnel,  electricity,  track rights, maintenance,) and decrease revenue ( lower fares) you increase your operating deficit.   The only fixes at that point are service cuts and/or fare increases which always leads to loss of ridership. 

I work in transportation for a living with emphasis on operations and have done so in one capacity or another for 30 years so I am not just some foamer.  

I also would like to see Gary airport thrive and bustle,  but if people don't fly from there and the airlines don't see it as being profitable,  it won't happen.   Just look at MidAmerica airport downstate which was supposed to be St Louis second airport.  American Airlines said that they would never fly there before the airport was even built.   It was built anyway,  and for the longest time,  it had no commercial air service. Now maybe Allegiant flies there,  but Illinois spent money that has not produced what people thought it would.   I believe that the Gray Line proposal will head down the same path. 

[jajuan]

23 minutes ago, MTRSP1900-CTA3200 said:

I agree with your statement, but I don't think he's confusing anything yet. However, considering how this thread has been going, I can see why this would pop up.

Garmon757 himself said to keep it civil because he felt that this conversation was heading south, and in the end he and the other moderators have final say on the outcome of this thread. Other than all of our future behavior on this thread, we can't alter the course of this thread by saying people are confusing this and that. I'd love a friendly debate as much as you, but when I see all the caps lock and moderators jumping in, I think I can see where sw4400 is coming from.

That was coming from one side of the equation though whom we've seen that type of thing from before and not all parties involved, so I think yes there still is an element of confusing the whole discussion with taking the whole thread south, in this case based on one individual's conduct. Telling that individual that their proposed idea causes more problems than are solved and is ultimately unworkable in the form presented is not being uncivil to that individual or committing any kind of personal attack. So again, let's not confuse Mr Payne's excessive passion for his ideas with everyone else stooping to the same level simply because they happened to disagree with his ideas and he himself can't separate disagreement with his ideas from a personal attack.

[garmon757]

After carefully reviewing every post for the last three days, this topic is locked indefinitely. The point of the matter about it is that it's leading us nowhere at all. I know most of y'all did your best to remain civiled but we all have to move forward from this. @Mike Payne this isn't a forum to gloat about you getting paid by a businessman or whoever. We seriously can care less but due to the fact that you had the audacity to assume that people be on this forum because of personal interest a.k.a hobby, not only you just committed a serious community guidelines violation, but you've offended a lot of members on here, in which you seriously upsetted me with that nonsense. That's really unprofessional and disconcerting towards this forum and I will not tolerate it by all means!