Seattle Articulateds 2

[Busjack]

Maybe we will find out if the Board Presentations for the meeting to be held are posted.

As the home page indicates, the Press Release was posted.

The announcement only said that CTA was accepting assignment of Seattle's assignable bus options, not that it has exercised that option. "aid CTA President Ron Huberman[,] '... Looking ahead, a decision on whether or not to move forward with the purchase will be made based on our funding situation.'"

Apparently though, since these are Seattle options, they would be in addition to the 1050 buses CTA has already committed to buying through New Flyer. Hence, if exercised, there would be far fewer than 400 old buses remaining in 2009. However, the announcement that CTA had purchased the buses was premature.

Maybe this explains the yellow and green buses in Chase ATM commercials. ;)

[sw4400]

As the home page indicates, the Press Release was posted.

The announcement only said that CTA was accepting assignment of Seattle's assignable bus options, not that it has exercised that option. "aid CTA President Ron Huberman[,] '... Looking ahead, a decision on whether or not to move forward with the purchase will be made based on our funding situation.'"

Apparently though, since these are Seattle options, they would be in addition to the 1050 buses CTA has already committed to buying through New Flyer. Hence, if exercised, there would be far fewer than 400 old buses remaining in 2009. However, the announcement that CTA had purchased the buses was premature.

Maybe this explains the yellow and green buses in Chase ATM commercials.

Why do we need Articulated Buses from New Flyer, Busjack? The CTA press release says to replace the TMC's, but that's what the D40LF's are doing, in addition to replacing the Flxible Metros(5300-series 475 TMC's + 469 Metros = 944 buses needing to be replaced). With 1,050 total Diesel and Hybrid New Flyers, we have enough to replace both series and have 106 extras. Unless they are going to take some NABI's out of service for emergency repairs or park the ones that are in the worst condition until they can be retired.

[Busjack]

Why do we need Articulated Buses from New Flyer, Busjack?

Don't ask me. rmadison supposedly had the inside information. I was just responding to his post and backtracking on my previous one that CTA wasn't transparent about the process, by acknowledging the Press Release. Like buslover, I was surprised by this, and if you note, I had pooh poohed rmadison's prior teases (but put in the caveat "if you believe prior CTA pronouncements").

By the way, page 10 of the President's Report has a drawing, and page 11 says that 150 hybrids would replace 200 buses (I previously assumed 225). Since the 1050 40 foot buses are enough to knock out the 5300s and 4400s, I assume that this means 200 6000s, which CTA previously said would be unreplaced after receiving the 1050 buses.

Now, if I were using them, it would be as I suggested in the Busbunching topic, on high productivity local routes; basically in the order suggested on page 18 (22 of the pdf) of the Sept. 2007 ridership report, substitute 2 articulateds for 3 40 footers, and put them on a regular headway. I would probably make an exception for 3 King Dr. as the frequency is not as high there. Some 7700s were used on 79, but not in the manner I suggest. You will note that the President's Report said that the fleet would be smaller without an effect on revenue passengers.

Also, if I were buying hybrid articulated buses, it would be parallel hybrids, with electric motors on each axle, to get some traction on the front part of the bus. I don't know if such a thing is manufactured, but the Seattle ones are the Allison series hybrids, like the 800s. You will note that the press release talks about testing 10 hybrids for a sufficient time, and those are the 800 (Allison).

Also, a correction on the humor: The green and yellow bus is in the Carson's ad, not Chase. It looked more peculiar because Carson's is a local brand (of a larger company). :lol:

[rmadisonwi]

Also, if I were buying hybrid articulated buses, it would be parallel hybrids, with electric motors on each axle, to get some traction on the front part of the bus. I don't know if such a thing is manufactured, but the Seattle ones are the Allison series hybrids, like the 800s. You will note that the press release talks about testing 10 hybrids for a sufficient time, and those are the 800 (Allison).

Got that backwards. The Allisons (Seattle, and our 800s) are parallel, and the 900s are Series buses.

[Busjack]

Got that backwards. The Allisons (Seattle, and our 800s) are parallel, and the 900s are Series buses.

Looking again at the ISE, site, which I consulted earlier, I guess so. In any event, the Allisons are the ones with the electric motor in the transmission, while the ISEs are the ones with separate motors on the wheels.

[BusExpert32]

Also, a correction on the humor: The green and yellow bus is in the Carson's ad, not Chase. It looked more peculiar because Carson's is a local brand (of a larger company).

Are you reffering to an ad wrap here. What bus number, what garage, etc.? I guess you can say that I'm interested in the CTA's ad wraps.

[Busjack]

Are you reffering to an ad wrap here. What bus number, what garage, etc.? I guess you can say that I'm interested in the CTA's ad wraps.

No. TV Commercial.

[sw4400]

By the way, page 10 of the President's Report has a drawing, and page 11 says that 150 hybrids would replace 200 buses (I previously assumed 225). Since the 1050 40 foot buses are enough to knock out the 5300s and 4400s, I assume that this means 200 6000s, which CTA previously said would be unreplaced after receiving the 1050 buses.

I'm still lost here, Busjack. If we just got done spending millions to rehab the 6000's in 2004-2005, then why would they retire 200 of the 330(over half the fleet) now? I understand that they are High Floor buses, but with the money put into them, it doesn't seem logical to start retirement of these buses until 2010-2011 at the earliest.

[Busjack]

It is questionable whether they got a full rehab like the 5800s did. Similarly, some 5300s, which did not get rehabs, outlived some 4400s, which did. In any event, you make certain assumptions about the lifetime of a bus, which don't necessarily agree with the feds. Also, based on the delivery horizon, Huberman could now be correctly saying that the articulateds will be replacing some 4400s, but then the last bunch of 1000s are replacing 6000s. Same effect in either case. And, as the report states, this is not to increase the fleet, but to replace more buses than received.

I suggest that instead of asking me, consult the cited sources--the press release and President's Report.

BTW, the news sources, including the Trib and Channel 5 indicate that CTA Board members Zagotta and Leonis said no deal on the buses if Doomsday comes. Note also that they are gubernatorial appointees, and the only ones that seem to exercise any supervisory authority. You don't hear from Carole Brown anymore, and one of the board members is relying on divine intervention.

[jajuan]

Also, a correction on the humor: The green and yellow bus is in the Carson's ad, not Chase. It looked more peculiar because Carson's is a local brand (of a larger company).

Saw the same commercial. I thought it was strange as well. As far as our topic, it would be odd to be replacing 6000s so soon since they're still relatively in really good condition.

[Busjack]

As far as our topic, it would be odd to be replacing 6000s so soon since they're still relatively in really good condition.

I'm not vouching for anything, but I suggest that you read the Sun-Times article that covers this subject. Also, to amplify on my previous point, one would suppose that Option 4 on the 1000s, due to be completed in 2009, would cover replacement of 200 of the 1995 buses, which as the Sun-Times says, are already 12 years old. The Sun-Times also seems to indicate that the Option 3 and 4 buses are not coming as fast as the President's Report on exercising those options seemed to indicate.

Also, it looks like despite what I just said, Carole Brown reappeared, although the picture is obviously file footage pasted over the picture of the New Flyer from the President's Report.

[trainman8119]

This whole thing shows me one thing...actually 2 maybe 3 depending on how you look at it.

First, CTA management is goofy. Why would you be looking to buy, lease, steal, whatever

new buses when you don't really need them and definitely can't afford them (that seems to

be the attitude in how the media, print and tv, are painting this). Maybe it takes 2 years to

get a bus, but if you don't get your money, you won't need it anyway.

Second, as stated in the last sentence, if you impose your cuts you are going to retire those

old buses you won't need..so why replace them ??? If you lose the option, so be it. This is

like going to the warehouse club and buying a side of beef when you have a freezer full just

because it is on sale.

Finally, what this does show is that these guys still believe they will get their money and all

is business as usual. Orders go on, there is no hiring freeze, and the cry wolf continues. If

this situation was so dire, the cuts would have been put into place in September...probably

more like March (since this has supposedly been going on all year). After getting our annual

"holiday greeting" (hah) letter from the ED of Metra, I am getting sicker and sicker of this

whole game....more so on the service boards end then on the pols.

PS to Mayor Daley. Maybe you ought to start thinking about the casino, cause I don't think

you will see money any other way.

(sorry to get off topic...errrrr)

[Busjack]

This whole thing shows me one thing...actually 2 maybe 3 depending on how you look at it.

First, CTA management is goofy. Why would you be looking to buy, lease, steal, whatever new buses when you don't really need them and definitely can't afford them (that seems to be the attitude in how the media, print and tv, are painting this). ... This is like going to the warehouse club and buying a side of beef when you have a freezer full just because it is on sale.

To go slightly off topic, and show that I am getting old: I remember my parents going to a local butcher to buy a side of beef. Now I have problems eating it.

I also remember the Gracie Allen routine, where she said she went to the appliance store, and told she would save $10 if she bought a washing machine, $20 if she bought a dryer, $30 if she bought a stove, etc. She said that she would keep buying until the savings paid for all of it. Huberman's report that savings would pay for half of the lease sounds similar. The option may be $60,000 a bus less than bid price (according to the press release), but each bus is $800,000, compared to about $460,000 for each NABI. The NABIs may have been junk and being a hybrid may be $200,000 more than a diesel bus, but that is still a lot of money, which the savings only partially offset. But maybe Huberman will find the financing.

I also don't personally understand how a yet unexercised Seattle option could be delivered before the exercised CTA options 3 and 4.

[jajuan]

I'm not vouching for anything, but I suggest that you read the Sun-Times article that covers this subject. Also, to amplify on my previous point, one would suppose that Option 4 on the 1000s, due to be completed in 2009, would cover replacement of 200 of the 1995 buses, which as the Sun-Times says, are already 12 years old. The Sun-Times also seems to indicate that the Option 3 and 4 buses are not coming as fast as the President's Report on exercising those options seemed to indicate.

Also, it looks like despite what I just said, Carole Brown reappeared, although the picture is obviously file footage pasted over the picture of the New Flyer from the President's Report.

Oh I know you're not vouching for anything. I'm just amazed at the craziness in the thinking of CTA management at times and how they seem to get in a cycle of finding a way to make themselves look bad even when at times the observation may not always be fair. But I shouldn't be though given the nature of bureaucracies not just for the CTA but other areas as well.

[qwantae]

Why not Neoplan Penniliners or Van Hools instead of same ol New Flyers. I really wish that CTA will order the Nova LF Articulated like Quebec, they are great looking.

[trainman8119]

Can someone explain something to me. Are not buses purchased with federal grant money with matching funds from State and City. And is not all the grant money supposed to be exhausted when making a purchase???? If there is money left for them to lease new buses, where did it come from and if in fact there is money, why wasn't it used to buy more of the what was ordered previous.

If this leasing thing does not fall under federal grants, does this tactic fall under the operations tag, which would mean CTA would have to foot the bill, meaning taxpayers actually are paying. This would explain part of the reason (other than lack of need) the funding has to be solved in order for CTA to take the Seattle option. If this is the case, is this really an irresponsible decision being made by CTA managers ???

What gives here ?????

[Busjack]

Why not Neoplan Penniliners or Van Hools instead of same ol New Flyers. I really wish that CTA will order the Nova LF Articulated like Quebec, they are great looking and and looks more reliable.

Neoplan USA is out of business. Nova closed its NY facility and quit selling buses to the FTA market when it completed the CTA order in 2002. And how can one say "looks more reliable?"

Van Hool might be a possibility, but the gimmick is picking up Seattle's option, which is NEW FLYER. They don't want to rebid, especially when that would take a couple of years, and the only other qualified bidder for articulated buses that is still in the US transit market is probably NABI.

To dream the impossible dream...

[Busjack]

What gives here ?????

I agree that the "financing to be explored" should be better explained by th CTA. Of course, as previously mentioned, CTA issues bonds in anticipation of federal grants, and then enters into financial leases after it receives the equipment. What kind of lease is contemplated here isn't clear. But the concept of leasing is being more used, because federal funds don't go as far as they used to. For instance, NICTD had to arrange financing before it could order its Highliners. Metra is still waiting for state bonding authority or a capital bill before it can order more.

[qwantae]

Neoplan USA is out of business. Nova closed its NY facility and quit selling buses to the FTA market when it completed the CTA order in 2002. And how can one say "looks more reliable?"

Van Hool might be a possibility, but the gimmick is picking up Seattle's option, which is NEW FLYER. They don't want to rebid, especially when that would take a couple of years, and the only other qualified bidder for articulated buses that is still in the US transit market is probably NABI.

To dream the impossible dream...

So you are saying that CTA had the last order of Nova LFs in the USA?

[Busjack]

So you are saying that CTA had the last order of Nova LFs in the USA?

Yep (for a transit authority).

[RTS Book]

Looking again at the ISE, site, which I consulted earlier, I guess so. In any event, the Allisons are the ones with the electric motor in the transmission, while the ISEs are the ones with separate motors on the wheels.

I don't think use of wheel traction motors mandates whether a hybrid design is series or parallel. It's a packaging issue, really.

IIRC, the Allison system can switch between the two - making it a series/parallel - a hybrid's hybrid. I could be mistaken.

BTW - did you mean to say you wanted wheel motors on the front section's rear axle in addition to the trailing section's pusher axle? That'd make some sense, but I wonder how it would effect handling and economy to be driving two sets of motors.

[Busjack]

BTW - did you mean to say you wanted wheel motors on the front section's rear axle in addition to the trailing section's pusher axle? That'd make some sense, but I wonder how it would effect handling and economy to be driving two sets of motors.

Yes. I don't see how a pusher articulated gets enough traction to run in the snow. There was, a couple of years ago, a TV news story of one NABI pushing another. This sent a mixed message, as the first obviously didn't have traction, but the second apparently had enough to get both buses out of there.

Maybe ISE offers what I want. The description of the motors says that they connect via a combined gearbox into the differential, and the picture of an articulated bus application mentions an ultra low floor electric axle (although it also says that the conventional drive system stays intact). Maybe, the ultra low floor middle axle would be sufficient.

There can't be much difference in fuel economy in one sense, because the same work is needed to propel the bus of a certain weight to a certain speed, no matter where the electric motors are located or their number (sort of similar to how a multi-unit control L train works). There might be a difference in the efficiency sense in that there might be an energy loss in charging the batteries, and then using only battery power to propel the electric motors as proposed.

Also, we aren't helping matters by referring to series and parallel. While rmadison had pointed out that I had gotten it backwards, it seems like you are referring to the fact that electricity supplements the diesel engine in the GM-Allison version or that it can run only on electricity for a while. Reading an advertisement about how the latter works in a Tahoe or Yukon complicates it more, because the transmission also does various things in various modes. However, it is clear that in the ISE or BAE system, only the electric motors provide the motive power, and all the engine does is charge the batteries (in fact, the BAE motor looks like an L car one).

[geneking7320]

Why not Neoplan Penniliners or Van Hools instead of same ol New Flyers. I really wish that CTA will order the Nova LF Articulated like Quebec, they are great looking.

Please, no buses with Nova LF type engine positioning.

Also, Neoplan USA folded some time ago.

[Guest]

Please, no buses with Nova LF type engine positioning.

Also, Neoplan USA folded some time ago.

Thats too bad Neoplan is folding. All the old bus manufacturers are dissapearing. New Flyer seems to be the last of the familiar names in bus builders. New Flyer pretty much has the market secured for quite some time. The new transit builders Van Hool, Nova bus really hasant caught on much, Optima, forget it!

[Busjack]

The 7500s are being half replaced by the leftover Seattle order from NewFlyer(2000series hybrid artics)

Not very likely. As the presentation cited above states, 150 articulated buses are to replace 200 of the oldest buses. Those aren't the NABIs.

Also, why do you assume that they are 2000 series, and why does it matter? I would bet on 7000 or 7800, but have been frequently wrong before. Maybe you think that the 2008 on the drawing is the series number, but the 1030 1000s (not counting the 800 and 900 series hybrids) should go to 2029.