Doomsday and LSD express routes ridership

[exitzero]

Greets everyone, and happy new year.

I have a few questions about the ridership numbers for the various north-side LSD express routes. As everyone knows, all of the routes will be cut if the funding situation doesn't change before the 20th.

My questions are as follows:

- are there any statistics on the kind of daily ridership that these routes get?

- is the CTA fully expecting people to simply start taking the Red Line, and if so, what kind of capacity does the line currently have to deal with the crush of riders who lose the ability to use the LSD expresses?

- why was the CTA willing to cut ALL of the LSD expresses yet keep low-ridership routes like the 30 South Chicago? I read that this route was kept because cutting it would leave areas of Chicago without transit service, but it would seem to me that in a doomsday scenario, the agency would focus on routes that retain the most ridership. In my experience the 147 would be such a route since there's only duplication with the 151 north of Foster, and it is an alternative to the slow-zone-addled Red Line. Not to mention that it retained the 6 for South Side LSD riders. It would seem to me most beneficial to retain at least one North Side LSD express route in order to provide transportation alternatives to the Red Line and the 151. Anytime I've ridden the 147 besides very late at night, it's packed to the gills.

It's still possible that some sort of funding will come through but with 12 days to go it is looking pretty bleak. Here's to hoping that things pan out, particularly because I do not want to see the likely excision of the remainder of the 5300 Flxs and all of the TMCs from the active fleet (I'd be more than happy to see a few Nova retirements, though. )

[Busjack]

Go to the CTA site and click on Reports and Notices, then Ridership Reports, then click on the month.

Here's to hoping that things pan out, particularly because I do not want to see the likely excision of the remainder of the 5300 Flxs and all of the TMCs from the active fleet (I'd be more than happy to see a few Nova retirements, though. )

However, I can't see busfans' desire to retain old buses that should have been retired years ago as justification for anything, especially not a state bailout at the taxpayers' expense.

[jajuan]

Go to the CTA site and click on Reports and Notices, then Ridership Reports, then click on the month.

However, I can't see busfans' desire to retain old buses that should have been retired years ago as justification for anything, especially not a state bailout at the taxpayers' expense.

I have to agree with Busjack's last statement. The 5300s especially should have been gone by now. The extent a lot of people are interested in seeing them stay around is to be there long enough to keep getting them to their destinations until they can be fully replaced. There are more important reasons why things should pan out like people being able to get to work, school, doctor's appointments or other destinations important for them to reach that's too far for them to walk. I think they're more concerned with having a bus to their destinations at the current service levels than the model bus that's on the road. Just like I miss seeing the Americanas on the road but I knew that it was more important to keep the fleet up to date to provide adequate service.

[exitzero]

Go to the CTA site and click on Reports and Notices, then Ridership Reports, then click on the month.

Thanks for the link...it helps proves my point that there's no rhyme or reason (other than political/delusional - which I was kinda hoping wasn't the case) to this whole doomsday process.

The 147 is by far the best-performing North Side Lake Shore Drive express route, and probably should have been retained. While it does not outperform the 151 in terms of total number of weekday boardings, it kills that route in both ridership growth YoY and number of passengers per platform hour. This despite having over 5 miles of nonstop routing. And it destroys the 30 in all categories, and yet the 30 was kept...?

The numbers get even better on Saturdays..for October 2007 the 147 had a nearly 60% appreciation in ridership from '05 and almost nearly as many pax/platform h as the weekday service.

Oh, wait, I'm sorry. I keep forgetting...the CTA is not about making sense. Silly me.

However, I can't see busfans' desire to retain old buses that should have been retired years ago as justification for anything, especially not a state bailout at the taxpayers' expense.

I have to agree with Busjack's last statement. The 5300s especially should have been gone by now. The extent a lot of people are interested in seeing them stay around is to be there long enough to keep getting them to their destinations until they can be fully replaced.

Well, of course; I thought that went without saying. Technically, all the CTA should be running right now are Novas, NABIs and New Flyers. But then, I wouldn't be a busfan if I thought like that, now would I? :)

[Busjack]

Thanks for the link...it helps proves my point that there's no rhyme or reason (other than political/delusional - which I was kinda hoping wasn't the case) to this whole doomsday process.

You're preaching to the choir here. See, for instance, comments to that effect in the following threads:

• Here Come The Scare Tactics
  
• Pace Service Cuts
  
• Take Over in Pace Territory
  

Note that I accuse both CTA and Pace, because the focus of both is to cut whole routes without considering such issues as the low productivity portions of routes that were saved, overlaps with other providers, etc. However, I believe that CTA is more culpable, as Pace did back down on some of its cuts, and changed the weekend one to after 7 p.m. I'll still go along with what I said in Here Come the Scare Tactics:

While the service cuts may not be for show (as I acknowledged that the RTA Act requires a balanced budget), CTA repeatedly presenting the "Sunday Only" plan is. As trainman pointed out, why kill routes with high productivity (the rush hour is scheduled to run above capacity), deny service to certain areas, but not eliminate the competition with Pace on Harlem? If it were a rational plan, such as the cutbacks in 1997, that would be different. But the last two Doomsday plans were politically motivated, even though there is a budget issue.

I might be a little less irate with the current plan, because it spreads out the cuts more. However, it is clear that CTA is using the riders on the rush hour routes, and part of its doomsday budget calculus is that it is not collecting those fares.

As you mention delusional, that gives me an opening to cite this Sun-Times article: Kruesi on CTA: Don't blame me. Even if the deficit couldn't be cured without more funding, there is no reason to put more tax dollars into the sinkhole he was mismanaging. But as Sarah Silverman says, you can't smell yourself.

The gov is also playing the game. After seeing that his outright veto threats have helped bring us to this situation, he is reported today as saying "pass something and I'll improve it" (presumably with the amendatory veto).

[RJL6000]

However, I believe that CTA is more culpable, as Pace did back down on some of its cuts, and changed the weekend one to after 7 p.m.

Actually, Pace is almost as culpable. This affects almost all Sunday service as well as the majority of Saturday service. In the Near West Suburbs (Pace West Division), all Sunday service except on Routes 307 and 318 will be eliminated with these cuts. What's more, Saturday service on several routes will also be eliminated, and Route 319 will be eliminated completely along with the Metra feeder routes.

In addition, all service after 7 p.m., even on weekdays, will be eliminated.

[qwantae]

All I can say is, #14 Jeffery Express is on the list and It will destroy the Black Community on South Side. This is very Racist.

Im sick of this small town cuts, and I'm gonna have to move to New York for MTA/ NJ Transit for a better service.

Boycott Chicago

[Busjack]

All I can say is, #14 Jeffery Express is on the list and It will destroy the Black Community on South Side. This is very Racist.

This reinforces my point that "I might be a little less irate with the current plan, because it spreads out the cuts more." The original cuts, which continue on into this plan, were in such areas as Evanston, the far North Side, the far Northwest side, the far Southwest side, etc. Except for some Blacks in west Evanston, those aren't Black communities. For instance, the 93 goes through communities in Chicago that are Korean, Indian, Pakistani, Russian Jewish, Bosnian, Croatian, etc., before reaching Evanston.

Most of the downtown express routes that were also slated to be cut under the "Sunday Only plan" were on the north side. 14 (and 147) were then exempted because they run on Sunday.

The current plan also has only 1 mile E-W grid service on the North Side. My impression is that the population along Grand, Diversey, Division, Armitage, Montrose, and Addison is mostly White and Hispanic.

However, you pull a bus from a Black community (especially here, where there is the 15 and the Metra Electric, which is underused) and the race card is played.

Face it, the Black community is seeing less of the cuts, because it probably rides the bus more. The X9 is about the only X bus that remains. The grid is not as completely disrupted as on the North Side, with only weaker routes (43, 44, 59) on the grid affected.

If you are so concerned about racism, why don't you contact your legislator and tell him or her that having the bus is more important than having Ricky Hendon tie up the transit legislation by shifting the topic to protecting Connie Payton's and Chaz Ebert's right to invest in a casino? And if the CTA's action (approved by Carole Brown) is racist, you can file a discrimination complaint with the FTA (which Mike Payne of the Gray Line did as a last resort, and apparently didn't work).

If Mayor Daley just clicked on the "Act Now" link at transitchicago.com and went to savechicagolandtransit.com and sent a message to his legislator, this would be all over. Yeah, right. In fact, it is basically the North Shore representatives that are pushing the transit bills; look at ilga.gov and see who the sponsors are.

[exitzero]

All I can say is, #14 Jeffery Express is on the list and It will destroy the Black Community on South Side. This is very Racist.

Im sick of this small town cuts, and I'm gonna have to move to New York for MTA/ NJ Transit for a better service.

Boycott Chicago

They will still be able to take the 6 to Stony Island and 63rd and transfer to the 15. The North Side will have NO LSD express service two Tuesdays from now.

[Busjack]

They will still be able to take the 6 to Stony Island and 63rd and transfer to the 15. The North Side will have NO LSD express service two Tuesdays from now.

Or at 51st and Lake Park or between 57th and Stony and 67th and Jeffery. Or Red or Green Line to the connection with the 15. Or are there Black neighborhoods that those from South Shore do not want to traverse?

BTW, I guess not all of the LSD routes are being canceled.

[trainman8119]

They will still be able to take the 6 to Stony Island and 63rd and transfer to the 15.

An easy solution about 2 years ago, however the geniuses eliminated transfers. So, that would make it either a $6 or $7 trip, depending on the time of day. May as well not be there at all for many people. Reinstitute transfers, and it becomes plausible. That, however, is not likely. And there are many there who don't go for paying for a Chicago card (what another $5 up front). Too much assumption of having transit cards.

[Busjack]

Too much assumption of having transit cards.

Of course, you can use Transit Cards and get the transfers for a quarter. If you start at or near an L station, no problem, and you need a transit card to get through the turnstile. There might not be as many vending places in South Shore, but there are some Jewels there.

This sort of goes back to my point about a year ago that the demand for a one-seat ride wasn't as high until cash transfers on buses were eliminated. But this is little different than the Tollway--find a way to get a card (Transit or Chicago for CTA, IPass for the Tollway) or pay double. Economic necessity generally gets people to chose the former, at least as a long-term proposition.

[BusHunter]

Don't worry the cuts will most likely not happen and even if they do with the cuts being this extreme the system would not be able to function. (unless you ride the "L") For example, take the #77 Belmont route this route is so busy in the rush hour that buses are practically on top of each other and with the cuts most likely you would be adding Schurz kids, Lane Tech kids (4000 plus kids attend Lane Tech) maybe a few Gordon Tech kids along with the Foreman kids and Steinmetz kids that ride the route now. You would have to run articulated's exclusively to just keep the route running on schedule. Oh yeah. don't forget half of the #152 Addison riders and #76 Diversey riders. A recipe for disaster!!

[jajuan]

Well I say let's stop worrying about if the race card is being played or not and start worrying about how we all are going to get around this city. Because when you get down to it, it is a combination of race, economic status, politics or whatever depending on who you talk to. The biggest thing is to realize that it's mostly politics and limited thinking that's at work. The politicians count on us arguing with each other about what and who is at fault instead of looking at their limited vision of how public transit is a big part of the backbone that keeps the state's economy working, i.e. people making it to work = the state continuing to receive adequate tax revenues. And as for that bull that the .25% tax increase will be so detrimental, you'd have to spend a heck of a lot of money for it to put that big of a dent in your pocket. It applies to everyone equally regardless of income or status and it applies only to the Chicago region making it a regional solution that so many downstate have been clamoring for. So I also say to the Gov, stop standing in the way of a solution that is so agreeable to everyone else involved. That is a big part of running the government for everyone: compromise.

[qwantae]

Greets everyone, and happy new year.

It's still possible that some sort of funding will come through but with 12 days to go it is looking pretty bleak. Here's to hoping that things pan out, particularly because I do not want to see the likely excision of the remainder of the 5300 Flxs and all of the TMCs from the active fleet (I'd be more than happy to see a few Nova retirements, though. )

Why do you want to see Nova's to retire while they are only 7 years old and they're good running buses, they are my favorite Low Floor type of buses even though Im not an Low Floor type of person. At least I get to ride a TMC buses everyday.

[exitzero]

Why do you want to see Nova's to retire while they are only 7 years old and they're good running buses, they are my favorite Low Floor type of buses even though Im not an Low Floor type of person. At least I get to ride a TMC buses everyday.

Because I think they're big, graceless, soulless, cumbersome, wretched, bug-eyed pieces of junk. They look like aborted fetuses. They have absolutely no character and are pretty much simply transit appliances. They're difficult to maneuver around inside and out. They're not "beta test" buses like the NABIs, so they'll probably last their designated 12 years, but they'll continue to bore bus fans and riders alike throughout their tenure. Of course, your average bus rider won't care, and maybe that's the point.

They don't offer any distinct advantage over any other low floor bus, and they particularly denigrate the image of what a low-floor RTS could've been.

[exitzero]

Well I say let's stop worrying about if the race card is being played or not and start worrying about how we all are going to get around this city. Because when you get down to it, it is a combination of race, economic status, politics or whatever depending on who you talk to. The biggest thing is to realize that it's mostly politics and limited thinking that's at work.

PLUS ONE. I did not want to get into a race debate here, folks. The fact that they're slashing all north-side LSD expresses means that people are going to have to crush an already-packed Red Line or ride various insane-asylums-on-wheels like the 151 Sheridan and the 36 Broadway.

You can't tell me that they kept a low-performance, low-ridership route like the 30 South Chicago and couldn't have kept at least one well-used far-North-side LSD express. At least, not without a Loop-sized lapse in logic.

[Danielsmusic]

Because I think they're big, graceless, soulless, cumbersome, wretched, bug-eyed pieces of junk. They look like aborted fetuses. They have absolutely no character and are pretty much simply transit appliances. They're difficult to maneuver around inside and out. They're not "beta test" buses like the NABIs, so they'll probably last their designated 12 years, but they'll continue to bore bus fans and riders alike throughout their tenure. Of course, your average bus rider won't care, and maybe that's the point.

Yes, they are boring and suck on express routes, but I don't think they're "aborted fetuses". Your description of these buses is completely insane.

They don't offer any distinct advantage over any other low floor bus, and they particularly denigrate the image of what a low-floor RTS could've been.

I don't think anyone was really looking for a low-floor RTS.

[BusExpert32]

Don't worry the cuts will most likely not happen and even if they do with the cuts being this extreme the system would not be able to function. (unless you ride the "L") For example, take the #77 Belmont route this route is so busy in the rush hour that buses are practically on top of each other and with the cuts most likely you would be adding Schurz kids, Lane Tech kids (4000 plus kids attend Lane Tech) maybe a few Gordon Tech kids along with the Foreman kids and Steinmetz kids that ride the route now. You would have to run articulated's exclusively to just keep the route running on schedule. Oh yeah. don't forget half of the #152 Addison riders and #76 Diversey riders. A recipe for disaster!!

And once again, the cuts are not going to happen. BusHunter, you are correct. I tried to explain that the bus and rail system wouldn't be able to take away 81 routes out of 154 routes (over 50% of the CTA's routes!) and still be able to function- in my November Doomsday debate. While there were others who believed that alternatives would be the great resolution for this, but as BusHunter explains, practically all of the remaining routes will not be able to accompany the need of transit on weekdays. So with everyone cramming into one route in the area as an "alternative", then it would really be a complete recipe for disaster that wouldn't even survive one day. Also, come January 20, if the cuts go through, the system would crash the first day. So resulting in my opinion that there will be no Doomsday like this. Doomsdays in the past were nothing (only eliminating unneeded weekend service, unneeded owl service, and very low ridership routes), but if over 50% of service goes, then it just can't happen, unless the legislators don't want mass transit in the Chicagoland area.

[exitzero]

Yes, they are boring and suck on express routes, but I don't think they're "aborted fetuses". Your description of these buses is completely insane.

I noticed you didn't say 'wrong,' though.

I don't think anyone was really looking for a low-floor RTS.

Which partly explains why Nova left the American bus market in 2003, shortly after CTA's bug-eyed circus freaks rolled off the assembly line.

[Busjack]

And once again, the cuts are not going to happen.

Hamos, Mathias, and Hendon are on the WTTW at this moment, and Hamos says she doesn't know how the votes will go on the two bills, what the Senate will do with them, and what the Governor will do with them. But you previously admitted that you don't have any inside information on how the legislature works, so we'll see if your luck holds out for the next two weeks. What will you do if it doesn't? Probably not admit that you were ultimately wrong.

I hope you recorded this for the Governor's DVD.

[Busjack]

It seems like we are getting into very collateral matters. Aesthetics are a matter of taste. The point of this topic was that the decision on what routes to cut made no business sense. We also don't have an apology for the racist rant, which is somewhat related to this point, although I pretty much agree with the point that the issue is not race but how we all are going to get around this region. Diverting the issue to the useless one of "my favorite bus" seems to be a way to avoid retracting the unfounded accusation of racism.

[exitzero]

It seems like we are getting into very collateral matters. Aesthetics are a matter of taste. The point of this topic was that the decision on what routes to cut made no business sense. We also don't have an apology for the racist rant, which is somewhat related to this point, although I pretty much agree with the point that the issue is not race but how we all are going to get around this region. Diverting the issue to the useless one of "my favorite bus" seems to be a way to avoid retracting the unfounded accusation of racism.

Agreed 100%. While I wish the TMCs could run forever, that is a discussion for another thread. So I apologize for diverging off the main topic myself. And I most certainly didn't want to delve into race relations here. These proposed cuts are not the act of an entity that is favoring one purported group of people over another. They are the prospect of an entity that hasn't the tiniest shred of common sense or ability to competently run a transit system. I wouldn't be surprised if the routes to be cut weren't selected by a game of darts.

[BusExpert32]

Hamos, Mathias, and Hendon are on the WTTW at this moment, and Hamos says she doesn't know how the votes will go on the two bills, what the Senate will do with them, and what the Governor will do with them. But you previously admitted that you don't have any inside information on how the legislature works, so we'll see if your luck holds out for the next two weeks. What will you do if it doesn't? Probably not admit that you were ultimately wrong.

Oh, don't worry, I'll admit it if I'm ultimately wrong, but we don't need insults going around again pertaining to Doomsday. But what if my common sense reasoning ("luck") holds out? I'll bet even you won't acknowledge what I've told you if it turns out to be correct again.

[Busjack]

Oh, don't worry, I'll admit it if I'm ultimately wrong, but we don't need insults going around again pertaining to Doomsday. But what if my common sense reasoning ("luck") holds out? I'll bet even you won't acknowledge what I've told you if it turns out to be correct again.

I've said that anything can happen and probably will.