Route Changes To Save CTA money or Improve Service

[Buslover88]

I think it was motivated by "wild-animalism" -- meaning the kind of thinking that leads someone to describe a group of people as "behaving like wild animals" (as Jesi did) because they don't happen to ... ummmm ... they don't happen to dress exactly as the kids in his own neighborhood.

Believe or not, all races have a wild animal in them.

Nothing at all to do with race, I'm sure. Just a matter of seeing kids who behave like kids elsewhere, but finding it reprehensible because they're dressed differently. He accuses them of [everyone shudder now] trying to climb a pole (presumably the pole the bus stop sign is posted on). I certainly remember doing similar things as a kid in a suburb of a downstate city. And again, I pass by this theater daily, and I don't see anything out of the ordinary.

It doesn't have anything to race. Just because those kids dress differently doesn't mean he's a racist, it's just a fashion thing with most kids these days. And if you're climbing a bus pole, isn't that a crime anyway?? Also, maybe it doesn't happen when YOU go by it, but it does happen, i've been to that place and seen that.

This topic has taken a lot of wrong turns.

Agreed.

[Danielsmusic]

I say that, if this topic is going to continue, jesi2282 and nextstopchicago need to stop. Just stop.

[BusExpert32]

I'm back for another round of CTA bus route fantasy. But seriously, I do want constructive criticism on these ideas.

I'm guessing everyone will be p.o.ed by my proposals, but that's much better than some of the other turns these proposal topics have endured.

Mostly extensions and the new fixed routes the RTA has recently approved:

31/32: Bring them back in the same state before the '97 cuts.

41: Bring it back in the same state before the '97 cuts.

44: Extend it to downtown, but certainly past Roosevelt.

66: Extend it along Chicago to the Harlem/Lake Green Line.

67: Extend it to the Ford City mall.

70: Extend it to either Harlem/Lake Green Line or North/Harlem via Division to Harlem.

83: A new fixed route for east 83rd street with a connection to the 79th Street Red Line.

85: Extend it to the 54th/Cermak Pink Line along Central and then Cermak to leave the Harrison/Central terminal for the #12 only.

91: Extend it to Ogden and then turn southwest on Ogden and terminate it wherever appropriate.

Some of these would strenghten the CTA's service in Cicero and Oak Park, even if it means going into "Pace territory". Although, there is absolutely no fine line between CTA and Pace territory anyway.

[pudgym29]

Even before Bus Rapid Transit is implemented on #66 Chicago, I submit that CTA should provide extra runs on #66 between Navy Pier and the Blue Line “L†stop on evenings and on weekends.

They wouldn't necessarily need to be the articulated buses, although I know those have been used for some special events during the summer.

There are a number of routes to Navy Pier. But if you're originating on the northwest side, the #66 is (or should be) your first choice. I've boarded the #66 going eastbound at the Blue Line in the evening (on weeknights) and have encountered crush conditions on the New Flyers regularly assigned to the line.

Another recommendation I offer is to run the #50 Damen bus until 01:00 hours the next day; at least between the Pink Line “L†Polk stop and the Brown Line “L†Damen stop. The amount of taverns, restaurants, and nightclubs on the Damen Ave. corridor could really use some late evening service.

[Chicago13]

31/32: Bring them back in the same state before the '97 cuts.

Isn't there a proposal to bring back the 31 already?

41: Bring it back in the same state before the '97 cuts.

This could work given the popularity of the Clybourn corridor

44: Extend it to downtown, but certainly past Roosevelt.

Is there a real need to do this?

66: Extend it along Chicago to the Harlem/Lake Green Line.

Not sure if Oak Park would want this and I doubt there'd be a real demand or need for it

67: Extend it to the Ford City mall.

This could probably work

70: Extened to either Harlem/Lake Green Line or North/Harlem via Division to Harlem.

See #66 Chicago

83: A new fixed route for east 83rd street with a connection to the 79th Street Red Line.

Can't comment on this one. I'm not that familiar with that area anymore

85: Extend it to Archer (with a counterclockwise loop at Archer to 55th to Central) to leave the Harrison/Central terminal for the #12 only.

How would you run it south of Roosevelt? Central is not a through street. It stops at 26th and doesn't begin again until Ogden/31st.

91: Extend it to 65th and Harlem and leave the #55A as it is.

Same problem as Central. Austin ends at pretty much at 39th, and doesn't start again until roughly 51st

[BusExpert32]

How would you run it south of Roosevelt? Central is not a through street. It stops at 26th and doesn't begin again until Ogden/31st.

Same problem as Central. Austin ends at pretty much at 39th, and doesn't start again until roughly 51st

Sorry for the goof. Another idea:

85: Extend it to the 54th/Cermak Pink Line along Central and then Cermak.

91: Extend it to Ogden and then turn southwest on Ogden and terminate it wherever appropriate.

[cta_44499_FG]

Sorry for the goof. Another idea:

85: Extend it to the 54th/Cermak Pink Line along Central and then Cermak.

91: Extend it to Ogden and then turn southwest on Ogden and terminate it wherever appropriate.

85: Central turns into a basically residential street after Roosevelt, I don't think Cicero/Berwyn (whatever that is) might want that. If this were to become, I think turning the busses on Roosevelt east to Laramie and then down Laramie would be the way to go. Of course, we are dipping into suburban territory again, and thats something our powers that be want avoided, duplication with Pace. Otherwise...it probably wouldn't work.

91: Not sure about this one....

[MetroShadow]

85: Central turns into a basically residential street after Roosevelt, I don't think Cicero/Berwyn (whatever that is) might want that. If this were to become, I think turning the busses on Roosevelt east to Laramie and then down Laramie would be the way to go. Of course, we are dipping into suburban territory again, and thats something our powers that be want avoided, duplication with Pace. Otherwise...it probably wouldn't work.

91: Not sure about this one....

Both are duplicates of service (305 on Laramie Mon-Sat, 315 Mon-Saturday and 305 Sunday via Austin).

[BUSANGEL#1]

83: A new fixed route for east 83rd street with a connection to the 79th Street Red Line.

# 83 is in the winning stages of the JARC proposals!

[BusExpert32]

Both are duplicates of service (305 on Laramie Mon-Sat, 315 Mon-Saturday and 305 Sunday via Austin).

Since these Pace routes run at a ridiculous frequency and there actually is the demand for service in these areas close to the city I would classify it as a much needed supplement in service rather than a duplication.

[BusExpert32]

91: Not sure about this one....

Actually, I've come up with yet again another idea for the 91.

91: Extend it to 65th/Harlem via Austin to 39th street to Central to 55th and back to Austin and then south again. The 55A would remain unchanged.

[MetroShadow]

The statement below was from an observation, knowing that I once dated a girl who lived on Austin, I can tell from experience how difficult it is to get service on Austin and how service throughout wouldn't necessarily be a good idea.

I will say that first, Pace really would need to get started on the West Cook/Dupage realignment, which is supposed to start in 2009 or 2010. Once Pace decides on what to do with many of the routes out of west division (I would argue that it would be necessary to fix most of those routes, save a few). Once Pace starts cutting the fat (or heaven allows, collaborate with the CTA), then I can see potential changes in 91 or 85 routing.

Having been through that area, I can see a need up to Cermak or 26th (unless you want to handle passengers to Morton College on Pershing) but no further. Also, you have to determine whether or not Cicero wants to deal with the traffic in the area. Austin stinks during the daytime as it is, and Central is slightly better. 315 Buses already have a hard time keep on schedule because of the traffic on Cermak and Morton East HS (if anything, buses can become 10 minutes off schedule just in this area...and if it was a WB 315 interlined from the 320, then you can see the delays increase [and this is when the weather actually cooperates). Having the CTA start from the Jeff (or taft) and go all the way past the Blue Line, can only fear having buses fall behind in schedule.

If anything, the 305 and 315 would have to be fixed (I'll leave 302 out since it cuts through the middle of Cicero), before we analyze the need for CTA to "encroach" territory. I know service times and hours are less than stellar, but this is logistically Pace territory for them to sort out.

[jajuan]

Actually, I've come up with yet again another idea for the 91.

91: Extend it to 65th/Harlem via Austin to 39th street to Central to 55th and back to Austin and then south again. The 55A would remain unchanged.

I just don't see the need to extend the 91 in anyway or form at this time. Like it's been pointed out there is the 315 to handle passengers south of Roosevelt. I don't see too many Berwyn or Cicero residents along that stretch wanted more buses rolling down the street beyond the Pace buses that already do. Not to mention just how many people are going to ride the route that far south? Sorry but I see it as an unnecessary use of money that can be used for improvements elsewhere.

[MetroShadow]

Mostly extensions and the new fixed routes the RTA has recently approved:

31/32: Bring them back in the same state before the '97 cuts.

JARC candidate, except service would go from Cottage-ish to Cicero

41: Bring it back in the same state before the '97 cuts.

To why they haven't figured this out is behind us, even though I read somewhere that it was under consideration

44: Extend it to downtown, but certainly past Roosevelt.

If you have to go past Roosevelt, Union Station, but you want to enhance travel times out of downtown.

66: Extend it along Chicago to the Harlem/Lake Green Line.

No demand for service west of Austin. I'd rather see short turns at the Blue Line or California.

67: Extend it to the Ford City mall.

JARC candidate, even though this makes sense as an alternative for 79th Service.

70: Extend it to either Harlem/Lake Green Line or North/Harlem via Division to Harlem.

You should see how far behind the drivers get from Downtown to Pulaski. When you have three or four high schools on that route on any given schoolday, plus the bottleneck east of Elston, then it gets problematic. Would it make sense to have 70 and 66 connect at the same terminus(Austin/Chicago)

83: A new fixed route for east 83rd street with a connection to the 79th Street Red Line.

JARC candidate, and I think this got high nods as well.

[Guest]

Mostly extensions and the new fixed routes the RTA has recently approved:

31/32: Bring them back in the same state before the '97 cuts.

JARC candidate, except service would go from Cottage-ish to Cicero

41: Bring it back in the same state before the '97 cuts.

To why they haven't figured this out is behind us, even though I read somewhere that it was under consideration

44: Extend it to downtown, but certainly past Roosevelt.

If you have to go past Roosevelt, Union Station, but you want to enhance travel times out of downtown.

66: Extend it along Chicago to the Harlem/Lake Green Line.

No demand for service west of Austin. I'd rather see short turns at the Blue Line or California.

67: Extend it to the Ford City mall.

JARC candidate, even though this makes sense as an alternative for 79th Service.

70: Extend it to either Harlem/Lake Green Line or North/Harlem via Division to Harlem.

You should see how far behind the drivers get from Downtown to Pulaski. When you have three or four high schools on that route on any given schoolday, plus the bottleneck east of Elston, then it gets problematic. Would it make sense to have 70 and 66 connect at the same terminus(Austin/Chicago)

83: A new fixed route for east 83rd street with a connection to the 79th Street Red Line.

JARC candidate, and I think this got high nods as well.

I can say that the old #41 route should be brought back but extended all the way south along Elston av. The north end of Elston ave. is starting to show a growth in development. Along with the DMV facility, a fresh grocers is planned just north of the Forest Glen Metra stop which could benefit also from rail passengers. It would revitalize the many businesses along Elston av. from Kimball ave. all the way up to Milwaukee ave. the south end could termminte at Ashland or North ave. Im sure many have noticed the explosion in business and retail along Elston av. from Logan Blvd. to Ashland av. I think it would be a good idea to really jump start Elston av.

[BusExpert32]

I just don't see the need to extend the 91 in anyway or form at this time. Like it's been pointed out there is the 315 to handle passengers south of Roosevelt.

I know that the #315 is set up to handle passengers south of Roosevelt, but I later indicated that the purpose of any #85 or #91 extensions would be to supplement the Pace service in areas that need it; not completely eliminating any Pace routes.

I don't see too many Berwyn or Cicero residents along that stretch wanted more buses rolling down the street beyond the Pace buses that already do.

This doesn't make much sense to me. What should residents of downtown Chicago say about the amount of buses that pass through each day? Certainly wouldn't be a good excuse for Cicero residents either as Pace buses are very infrequent.

[Busjack]

I know that the #315 is set up to handle passengers south of Roosevelt, but I later indicated that the purpose of any #85 or #91 extensions would be to supplement the Pace service in areas that need it; not completely eliminating any Pace routes.

Since the transit authorities are crying that they need more money again, there is no point encouraging competition on streets that are already served, and damaging existing routes. We discussed this a couple of years ago, and there is no reason to make the taxpayers pay to double up service, especially where there is no way CTA could make its recovery ratio, nor any reverse job access or similar rationale. I still contend that 90 should be cut back to where it was, but obviously the RTA is not going to exercise its oversight authority in that case. The entire RTA board should be removed if they were to allow something like this.

[jajuan]

I know that the #315 is set up to handle passengers south of Roosevelt, but I later indicated that the purpose of any #85 or #91 extensions would be to supplement the Pace service in areas that need it; not completely eliminating any Pace routes.

This doesn't make much sense to me. What should residents of downtown Chicago say about the amount of buses that pass through each day? Certainly wouldn't be a good excuse for Cicero residents either as Pace buses are very infrequent.

The difference is there is an obvious demand for those routes downtown while there apparently isn't much for what you propose. Thus you're likely to have those Cicero (Berwyn from the other side of Austin) residents griping about buses that roll down the street that no one is riding. As for the higher intervals in between the Pace buses aleady there, there aren't many people riding during the higher interval times especially midday. At least I've never seen that many whenever I see a 315 or 305 during those times. Your downtown comparison is apples and oranges.

[artthouwill]

To this point all of the suggestions have been bus suggestions so I offer some rail suggestions.

Green Line operates from Harlem to Clinton then via outer Loop tracks for return to Harlem. Eight car trains can be reintroduced to this line.

Pink Line trains operate from 54/Cermak to Adams/Wabash, then proceed south via current Green Line to Ashland/63 or Cottage Grove with 4 car trains.

I believe there are a set of abandoned RR tracks that operate along South Chiacgo Avenue parallel to the Skyway. There is one active set of RR tracks also. I propose a CTA line operating along those abandoned tracks between the Indiana State Line and the Loop. stopping at Ewing, 92nd, 87th, 79th/Stony Island, 71st/Cottage Grove, then following the former Skyway exit routing for Indiana Ave, but instead connecting to either A. Green Line tracks stopping at only Garfield and Roosevelt OR over to Red Line tracks descending just north of 63rd and stopping at Garfield and 47th then over Loop elevated routing after passing Chinatown.

[Busjack]

To this point all of the suggestions have been bus suggestions so I offer some rail suggestions.

Green Line operates from Harlem to Clinton then via outer Loop tracks for return to Harlem. Eight car trains can be reintroduced to this line.

Pink Line trains operate from 54/Cermak to Adams/Wabash, then proceed south via current Green Line to Ashland/63 or Cottage Grove with 4 car trains.

Splitting the Green Line might make sense, in that Lake recovered, but the South Side never did. I thought that the Pink Line frequency was too light to support any level of service on the South Side Green Line, but it appears that both run at about the same frequency (every 7 to 10 minutes). South Side politicians would probably howl, anyway.

... I propose a CTA line operating along those abandoned tracks between the Indiana State Line and the Loop. stopping at Ewing, 92nd, 87th, 79th/Stony Island, 71st/Cottage Grove, then following the former Skyway exit routing for Indiana Ave, but instead connecting to either A. Green Line tracks stopping at only Garfield and Roosevelt OR over to Red Line tracks descending just north of 63rd and stopping at Garfield and 47th then over Loop elevated routing after passing Chinatown.

This is certainly out of the box, and something not heard about elsewhere. This might make sense (via the Green Line, as the Red is already heavy), but I would contend that it should be done in conjunction with determining what the role of the Metra Electric South Chicago branch should be. Assuming that you could find land for bus terminals at the stations, this would at least connect with a lot of routes. (Without a bus terminal, I find it hard for a pedestrian making a transfer to navigate the junction of Stony Island, 79th, and South Chicago, for instance.)

The Green Line connection would not be as complicated as you suggest, as there at least was a connection between the railroad and the 58th Street yard. Whether that still exists, I don't know. Google Maps indicates that it can be done, perhaps needing only bridging a truck parking area.

Instead of heading to Indiana, it could go into the South Deering area. There was all the talk about how the guy who developed the Ave. A to Ave. O area thought an L would go in that direction, but maybe you figured it out.

[artthouwill]

Splitting the Green Line might make sense, in that Lake recovered, but the South Side never did. I thought that the Pink Line frequency was too light to support any level of service on the South Side Green Line, but it appears that both run at about the same frequency (every 7 to 10 minutes). South Side politicians would probably howl, anyway.

This is certainly out of the box, and something not heard about elsewhere. This might make sense (via the Green Line, as the Red is already heavy), but I would contend that it should be done in conjunction with determining what the role of the Metra Electric South Chicago branch should be. Assuming that you could find land for bus terminals at the stations, this would at least connect with a lot of routes. (Without a bus terminal, I find it hard for a pedestrian making a transfer to navigate the junction of Stony Island, 79th, and South Chicago, for instance.)

The Green Line connection would not be as complicated as you suggest, as there at least was a connection between the railroad and the 58th Street yard. Whether that still exists, I don't know. Google Maps indicates that it can be done, perhaps needing only bridging a truck parking area.

Instead of heading to Indiana, it could go into the South Deering area. There was all the talk about how the guy who developed the Ave. A to Ave. O area thought an L would go in that direction, but maybe you figured it out.

There was talk about a Gray line which would be CTA service over the existing Metra Electric South Chicago branch, the Kensington Local and possibly the Blue Island branch, but since ME is a railroad (Class II ?) it would have to use "railroad equipment", thus it would not be compatible with the rest of the CTA rail system. ME is not doing well with the existing service, thus I can't see CTA faring any better especially with the Lake Shore Express bus routes. Would CTA pay trackage rights to Metra for the service? How would fares be collected at stations where both services would operate, i.e 57th street?

[jajuan]

To this point all of the suggestions have been bus suggestions so I offer some rail suggestions.

Green Line operates from Harlem to Clinton then via outer Loop tracks for return to Harlem. Eight car trains can be reintroduced to this line.

Pink Line trains operate from 54/Cermak to Adams/Wabash, then proceed south via current Green Line to Ashland/63 or Cottage Grove with 4 car trains.

I believe there are a set of abandoned RR tracks that operate along South Chiacgo Avenue parallel to the Skyway. There is one active set of RR tracks also. I propose a CTA line operating along those abandoned tracks between the Indiana State Line and the Loop. stopping at Ewing, 92nd, 87th, 79th/Stony Island, 71st/Cottage Grove, then following the former Skyway exit routing for Indiana Ave, but instead connecting to either A. Green Line tracks stopping at only Garfield and Roosevelt OR over to Red Line tracks descending just north of 63rd and stopping at Garfield and 47th then over Loop elevated routing after passing Chinatown.

The South Chicago idea sounds good, but I'm not so sure about the Green line split idea. For one the South side is starting to get revitalized. It may not have reached areas between maybe the 35th-Bronzeville-IIT and 47th street stations yet, but Bronzeville and areas near IIT are have been getting or already gotten restored. Areas near 47th, 51st and Garfield stations near King Drive are also starting to get some attention. I've seen some of it start to happen when traveling to visit friends who reside on the South Side. State Street which is a short distance from the whole south leg of the Green line, except that which goes to Cottage Grove, was seeing some restoration on parts south of the IIT area. Also from experience of traveling to classes at IIT and making the occasion visit back to campus after graduating, there are a good number of riders who ride from the West Side along Lake Street and continue beyond downtown to south side destinations south of IIT. So I think you'd have more than just south side politicians howling. You'd have actual riders howling as well.

[Busjack]

There was talk about a Gray line which would be CTA service over the existing Metra Electric South Chicago branch, the Kensington Local and possibly the Blue Island branch...

I only mentioned the "role of the ME" because of that proposal was pending, but doesn't seem to be going anywhere (another story), but I wouldn't advocate additional competition in that corridor, especially since the 30 bus is weak. The future of ME might be killing the in-city service, except that a certain Congressman under suspicion has funneled money into some of its stations. I had mentioned the fare collection problem to the Gray Line's advocate, and never got a straight answer (except that he would have built another 57th Street station for the expresses).

If your idea would go forward, it would have to be part of a serious restructuring in that area, including killing the 26 and probably the X28 buses. Since 14 is going BRT, it is questionable whether it would become a feeder either to the ME or your line.

Another thing you may have to throw into the restructuring study is whether the population of South Chicago (and south of that in Chicago) is oriented, travel and business wise, more toward Indiana than the Loop. Also, whether the US Steel property will ever get developed.

But I did mention that I liked your proposal from a physically possible point of view.

Your mention of "railroad equipment" also indicates that if there is sufficient abandoned right of way along the Skyway, it still would have to be sufficiently separated from the railroad right of way still in use.

[nextstopchicago]

The South Chicago idea sounds good, but I'm not so sure about the Green line split idea. For one the South side is starting to get revitalized. It may not have reached areas between maybe the 35th-Bronzeville-IIT and 47th street stations yet, but Bronzeville and areas near IIT are have been getting or already gotten restored. Areas near 47th, 51st and Garfield stations near King Drive are also starting to get some attention. I've seen some of it start to happen when traveling to visit friends who reside on the South Side. State Street which is a short distance from the whole south leg of the Green line, except that which goes to Cottage Grove, was seeing some restoration on parts south of the IIT area. Also from experience of traveling to classes at IIT and making the occasion visit back to campus after graduating, there are a good number of riders who ride from the West Side along Lake Street and continue beyond downtown to south side destinations south of IIT. So I think you'd have more than just south side politicians howling. You'd have actual riders howling as well.

Wish they'd relax the zoning rules on garages near the stations. I see a lot of new places down there dominated by garages, so people have a place for cars they may or may not want. If the market demanded it, that's one thing, but these garages are being built because zoning requires it. Relax zoning and let's see if some people would prefer a unit that's $10,000 cheaper, rather than paying for a garage.

When you've already required them to pay a big part of the cost of a car even if they don't have one, then the financial advantage of relying on public transit isn't nearly as great.

[artthouwill]

I only mentioned the "role of the ME" because of that proposal was pending, but doesn't seem to be going anywhere (another story), but I wouldn't advocate additional competition in that corridor, especially since the 30 bus is weak. The future of ME might be killing the in-city service, except that a certain Congressman under suspicion has funneled money into some of its stations. I had mentioned the fare collection problem to the Gray Line's advocate, and never got a straight answer (except that he would have built another 57th Street station for the expresses).

If your idea would go forward, it would have to be part of a serious restructuring in that area, including killing the 26 and probably the X28 buses. Since 14 is going BRT, it is questionable whether it would become a feeder either to the ME or your line.

Another thing you may have to throw into the restructuring study is whether the population of South Chicago (and south of that in Chicago) is oriented, travel and business wise, more toward Indiana than the Loop. Also, whether the US Steel property will ever get developed.

But I did mention that I liked your proposal from a physically possible point of view.

Your mention of "railroad equipment" also indicates that if there is sufficient abandoned right of way along the Skyway, it still would have to be sufficiently separated from the railroad right of way still in use.

Why does Metra even run the in city service anyway? Hyde Park is really the only inner city area of ME that gets substantial ridership. The Kensington local is so bad now that they run 2 car trains on it and shortened the platforms. Unless the S Chicago branch ran express downtown from Stony Island, there is no incentive to entice passengers away from the CTA. Unless the former US Steel site gets very densely populated or CTA starts axing routes like the 14 and 26 (which was proposed during doomsday) I can't see Metra doing well.

I believe my proposal would get riders who normally would ride a long east-west line, say 79th to the REd Line from Stony west and give them a one seat ride downtown and possibly connect to other CTA lines for travel beyond.