Man Americana CTA Bus

[MRChiCity]

1. Here is another good example of the MAN buses. Really takes me back when I drove them. Being that the video is at night, it reminds me of when I had this on the #80 Irving Park when I worked PM. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4Y_H06TFfw

I saw you post it in yet another thread, and yes these buses are missed. 36 Broadway and 22 Clark are just not the same without them. What were your most and least favorite bus routes to drive?

[Guest]

I saw you post it in yet another thread, and yes these buses are missed. 36 Broadway and 22 Clark are just not the same without them. What were your most and least favorite bus routes to drive?

I drove the MANs out of the three garages I worked out of. I also drove them on both #36 and #22 routes. Kedzie, NP and FG were my garages. At Kedzie, my favorite route to drive where I drove MANs was 156 LaSalle. My least favorite routes to drive were #12 Roosevelt and #126 Jackson, too many trouble makers and people wanting a free ride! At NP, I drove the MANs on all Evanston routes, my fav being #203 Ridge/Grant, I also loved driving the #145 Wilson/Michigan. At FG I had these buses on the #152 Addison, 54A N Cicero and one evening on the #80 Irv Pk. after the lift conversion. I loved every minute of it! I remember when the MAN buses were delivered, I was in my first year of high school and then a few years later to be driving them!. I always loved that sound of the engine and ZF tranny!

[Busjack]

...After moving to Wilmette in the summer of 1996... we would still visit the city and I saw them on the Evanston routes. How come Evanston routes had those buses? I also think they had TMC's later on if i'm not mistaken.....

Essentially the answer is that from when CTA took over after Evanston Bus Company went out of business (1972) until comparatively recently, North Park garage ran all the Evanston CTA routes. Now, FG has a few of them, but certainly NP runs 201.

In the 70s, buses dedicated to Evanston service were renumbered CTA buses but it was easy to tell from the "label scars" inside the bus what they were (i.e. 6 was 1096). The supposition was that in the era of roll signs they didn't want to add the Evanston destinations to about 300 NP buses, especially since their signs already had more readings than those of the average garage.

When the MANs arrived with the flip dot signs, maybe that wasn't a problem any more,so CTA treated Evanston like any other North Park route.

[Busjack]

To expand upon your statement, we don't know how the Q44 or Q44A route looked in the early 1980's when the photo was taken. It might have been a local at the point.

True on that point since an analogy would be 146 having been both local and express and now it's express all hours and days of operation.

Both of you have valid points. I was only commenting on whatever it was then, it is what it is now.

To get to jajuan's point, originally (as of the 1976 route renumberings) 153 was the local and 145 and 146 were expresses. Then, somehow, 153 died and there were both 145 and 146 local and express (local with a black sign, express with a red). Maybe it had to do with the day parts. Then 145 and 146 became all express.

Q44 seems more analogous to when CTA had the X routes. I mentioned 21 (maybe I should have said X21) or certainly X20 when it was limited stops west of Garfield Park and pretty much express on Washington/Warren Blvds., and local riders were supposed to take the 20 Madison bus. However, again, you would have to replace Garfield Park with a moat (which would be a bummer for those visiting the Conservatory ).

[rvwnsd]

True on that point since an analogy would be 146 having been both local and express and now it's express all hours and days of operation.

Exactly! Thank you for providing an example. I haven't lived in Chicago since late 2000, so I couldn't think of anything off the top of my head.

...I also think they had TMC's later on if i'm not mistaken...

I lived in Evanston between 1995 and 2000. In addition to the MANs that jajuan mentioned, the TMCs operated on the the route that operated on Chicago Avenue, which I think was the 201. Interestingly, the N201 was operated with the original New Flyer LF buses. I think I saw one or two NFs operate during the day on 201, but typically that route was served by TMCs.

Busjack:

1) In response to your post about the current-day Q44, I totally got what you were saying. Thanks for researching the route as it is today. Oh, if only the Internet was in its current form back in '80-something we could do an Internet Wayback Machine search on the Q44A.

2) I read somewhere (can't recall where) that the CTA buses used in Evanston were re-numbered for tax purposes. There was no explanation as to what "tax purposes" referred to. Your explanation makes a whole lot more sense from a practical standpoint.

[Guest]

Exactly! Thank you for providing an example. I haven't lived in Chicago since late 2000, so I couldn't think of anything off the top of my head.

I lived in Evanston between 1995 and 2000. In addition to the MANs that jajuan mentioned, the TMCs operated on the the route that operated on Chicago Avenue, which I think was the 201. Interestingly, the N201 was operated with the original New Flyer LF buses. I think I saw one or two NFs operate during the day on 201, but typically that route was served by TMCs.

Busjack:

1) In response to your post about the current-day Q44, I totally got what you were saying. Thanks for researching the route as it is today. Oh, if only the Internet was in its current form back in '80-something we could do an Internet Wayback Machine search on the Q44A.

2) I read somewhere (can't recall where) that the CTA buses used in Evanston were re-numbered for tax purposes. There was no explanation as to what "tax purposes" referred to. Your explanation makes a whole lot more sense from a practical standpoint.

I remember TMCs were on both 201 and the 203 route when I worked at NP back in 99. Routes #202 and 204 were exclusively all MANs .

[MRChiCity]

I drove the MANs out of the three garages I worked out of. I also drove them on both #36 and #22 routes. Kedzie, NP and FG were my garages. At Kedzie, my favorite route to drive where I drove MANs was 156 LaSalle. My least favorite routes to drive were #12 Roosevelt and #126 Jackson, too many trouble makers and people wanting a free ride! At NP, I drove the MANs on all Evanston routes, my fav being #203 Ridge/Grant, I also loved driving the #145 Wilson/Michigan. At FG I had these buses on the #152 Addison, 54A N Cicero and one evening on the #80 Irv Pk. after the lift conversion. I loved every minute of it! I remember when the MAN buses were delivered, I was in my first year of high school and then a few years later to be driving them!. I always loved that sound of the engine and ZF tranny!

Cool, from reading other posts I know you always enjoyed doing ETHS school runs with Evanston's little darlings I mean monsters. Did you do any school runs on the 203 or just the 204?

[Guest]

Cool, from reading other posts I know you always enjoyed doing ETHS school runs with Evanston's little darlings I mean monsters. Did you do any school runs on the 203 or just the 204?

OMG! the ETHS students!!! Who could forget them??? I did work alll four Evanston routes especially the ETHS school runs. What a collection of monsters at that school. I dont know how many time I had to call police on these kids! Thats something I sure dont miss!

[Busjack]

Exactly! Thank you for providing an example. I haven't lived in Chicago since late 2000, so I couldn't think of anything off the top of my head.

I lived in Evanston between 1995 and 2000. In addition to the MANs that jajuan mentioned, the TMCs operated on the the route that operated on Chicago Avenue, which I think was the 201. Interestingly, the N201 was operated with the original New Flyer LF buses. I think I saw one or two NFs operate during the day on 201, but typically that route was served by TMCs.

Busjack:

1) In response to your post about the current-day Q44, I totally got what you were saying. Thanks for researching the route as it is today. Oh, if only the Internet was in its current form back in '80-something we could do an Internet Wayback Machine search on the Q44A.

2) I read somewhere (can't recall where) that the CTA buses used in Evanston were re-numbered for tax purposes. There was no explanation as to what "tax purposes" referred to. Your explanation makes a whole lot more sense from a practical standpoint.

At least in Chicago we have Chicago Transit and Railfan, which seems to have enough research going back.

The "tax puirposes" point doesn't make any sense, as all were CTA property, and the new looks were purchased with federal funds. The only "tax purposes" I ever heard was that the Waukegan and North Chicago Bus Co. assigned a pending order it had to the RTA shortly after the RTA was formed because the RTA was sales tax exempt.

I remember TMCs were on both 201 and the 203 route when I worked at NP back in 99. Routes #202 and 204 were exclusively all MANs .

Both of your posts reenforce that they were normal North Park routes. Undoubtedly, the differences between 201/203 and 202/204 is that back in 99, there were designated accessible routes. That continued until the last MANs were replaced around 2004 with the NABIs. A 4400 or 5800 pretty much had to be used on an accessible route, while a MAN or Flyer could be used on a nonaccessible one.

That's pretty much why FG Flyers and (in about 2001) MANs were limited to 152, and if you go on the south side, MANs on routes like 59,but (after Sept. 1995) no longer on 9, 55, or 63.

The more interesting question: Roughly between 1986 and 1991, was there some split in Evanston between New Looks and MANs, and did the New Looks retain their 2 digit numbers?

[wordguy]

The more interesting question: Roughly between 1986 and 1991, was there some split in Evanston between New Looks and MANs, and did the New Looks retain their 2 digit numbers?

Not long after NP received its full allotment of MANs --- including enough to cover the Evanston routes --- the New Looks were reassigned their original numbers. Some remained at NP and given the standard signrolls (7400s & 9600s); others were transferred (1000s, probably to 77th).

[jajuan]

I saw you post it in yet another thread, and yes these buses are missed. 36 Broadway and 22 Clark are just not the same without them. What were your most and least favorite bus routes to drive?

Yes I still miss those workhorses 10 years after their retirement from passenger service. It's sad that they were the one model from more recent CTA history that CTA didn't save at least one in fairly decent driveable condition in the series' post passenger uses. Yes it was cool seeing them on the 36 Broadway. The 22 Clark was one of the early routes to get the accessible designation during 1991 and 1992 when TMCs were still being delivered so it was pretty rare to see a MAN 4000 on this route after that point though sometimes it did still happen when an accessible bus wasn't available for an individual run. NP and 103rd's express routes were always good routes I got a kick out of seeing Americanas operating. 6 and 14 in their pre-August 2003 forms along with 136, 145 and 147 were personal favorites of mine in the height of the Americana days.

[rvwnsd]

The "tax purposes" point doesn't make any sense, as all were CTA property, and the new looks were purchased with federal funds. ...

I completely agree. Also, being a mini-government, CTA would not pay taxes. Last I checked, it receives tax revenues. However, I found an old post that explains the re-numbering. I think whoever wrote about the "tax purposes" intended to say "subsidy purposes." Here's the old post:

The operation of the Evanston services by cta from Sep 1973 through Feb 1986 was kept completely seperate from the main cta services hence the buses used were renumbered into their own series so they could be easily identified and the services were provided by dedicated staff so costs could be accurately measured - and yes Evanston was making up the shortfall!

Services started with 20 buses 1-5 (ex 800-4), 6-9 (1096-1099) and 10-20 (8416-8426). In Nov-73 a 21st bus was needed which was numbered 0 (8476). 0 & 10-20 were replaced in Feb-74 by 21-25 (1100-1104) & 26-31 (3300-3305) - back to 20 buses. 32 (3306) became the 21st bus in Jul-74. In Aug-1976 1-9 & 21-25 were replaced by 33-36 (3422/40/23/06) & 40-51 (7400-7411) making 23 buses. 32-36 were replaced with 52-56 (9600-9604) in Apr-77 & 57-58 (9605-9606) joined in Sep-77 (25 buses). The final changes saw 26-31 replaced by 59-64 (9607-9612) in 1981.

The final Evanston Division fleet consisted of 40-64 (7400-7411 & 9600-9612) until the Division was disbanded in Feb-86 and the buses regained their original numbers.

The only buses that did not return to service with cta, regaining their original fleet numbers, were Flxible FT2P 0 & 10-20 and Flxible F2D6V 26-31.

Alan

[Busjack]

.... It's sad that they were the one model from more recent CTA history that CTA didn't save at least one in fairly decent driveable condition in the series' post passenger uses. ....

I don't know how they were mechanically near the end, but one thing that was noticeable was the the exterior paint jobs looked very amateurish, especially when repainted in the white blue and red. It also looked like the numbers were stenciled. Maybe that was in the days before when decorations were decals.

I completely agree. Also, being a mini-government, CTA would not pay taxes. Last I checked, it receives tax revenues. However, I found an old post that explains the re-numbering. I think whoever wrote about the "tax purposes" intended to say "subsidy purposes." Here's the old post:

The subsidy is true in that originally Evanston fares were 25 cents while CTA fares were 45 cents, and you needed a through transfer to transfer to other buses or, in the case of the L, a paper fare check to ride south of South Blvd. Did the shift to MANs coincide with the Evanston routes becoming regular fare?

[ibebobo]

I could not stand them. Their exhuast would come out under the rear bumper and right into your face (also the 4400s). Fortunately, we don't have to deal with that anymore!

[jajuan]

I could not stand them. Their exhaust would come out under the rear bumper and right into your face (also the 4400s). Fortunately, we don't have to deal with that anymore!

Well given that they along with the 4400s and 5300s for that matter being at or approaching retirement age at the time of the early days of this forum played some part in that I'm sure.Plus we had the service boards saying they were broke more than they throw that at us today, which if we look at how many times they say that makes it a lot. It wasn't something that was true of all buses in either series though. Either way CTA was still using higher sulfur/particulate diesel fuel in those buses' day so that factored into it too no matter how much they sealed any openings to keep that diesel smell out. You still were bound to smell it.

[rvwnsd]

I don't know how they were mechanically near the end, but one thing that was noticeable was the the exterior paint jobs looked very amateurish, especially when repainted in the white blue and red. It also looked like the numbers were stenciled. Maybe that was in the days before when decorations were decals.

The subsidy is true in that originally Evanston fares were 25 cents while CTA fares were 45 cents, and you needed a through transfer to transfer to other buses or, in the case of the L, a paper fare check to ride south of South Blvd. Did the shift to MANs coincide with the Evanston routes becoming regular fare?

Come to think of it, the CTA Evanston buses were full fare by the time I moved there in 1995.

[ibebobo]

I was speaking on where the exhuast pipe was located more than anything else!

[jajuan]

I was speaking on where the exhuast pipe was located more than anything else!

Um why so excitable over this? (The exclamation point suggests an excitable reaction) I wasn't saying there was anything wrong with your statement. I agree that was one drawback of them especially as their final retirements approached. The Flyer 9800s/1600s had similar situations befall riders during those warmer weather months and the rear windows were open since they like the MAN 4000s never had air-conditioning. I was simply pointing out possible explanations of your observations like the buses' advanced age and the fact that CTA wasn't using the lower sulfur fuel in the height of when all of these models were the standard rolling down Chicago streets.

[andrethebusman]

Essentially the answer is that from when CTA took over after Evanston Bus Company went out of business (1972) until comparatively recently, North Park garage ran all the Evanston CTA routes. Now, FG has a few of them, but certainly NP runs 201.

In the 70s, buses dedicated to Evanston service were renumbered CTA buses but it was easy to tell from the "label scars" inside the bus what they were (i.e. 6 was 1096). The supposition was that in the era of roll signs they didn't want to add the Evanston destinations to about 300 NP buses, especially since their signs already had more readings than those of the average garage.

When the MANs arrived with the flip dot signs, maybe that wasn't a problem any more,so CTA treated Evanston like any other North Park route.

Actually the problem was a bit different. When CTA started Evanston service in 9/73, the city of Evanston gave CTA a subsidy to run the routes, and insisted that revenue be kept separate so they knew exactly what was coming in the farebox. As a result, North park for 10 (?) years dumped Evanston bus fareboxes at a dedicated vault at the vault island, and in order to make doubly sure nobody mixed things up, Evanston buses were given a separate number series, which over the years went from 0 to 64 (not all numbers used). In addition, contrary to practice at the time, Evanston pullouts and pullins were specifically prohibited from carrying passengers south of Howard St, again so that things would not get financially mixed up. Once the subsidies ended, in 1983 I believe, any bus could be used in Evanston, and soon there were ETHS school trippers that were interlined with Clark and Sheridan.

Up until 2009, Evanston was strictly Nprth Park. In 2/09 FG took over some service on 201-205-206 and 97, but in 2013 FG service on 201 and 97 was eliminated as was NP service on 205 and 206 except for a couple of PM ETHS doubles that run with artics.

[MRChiCity]

Actually the problem was a bit different. When CTA started Evanston service in 9/73, the city of Evanston gave CTA a subsidy to run the routes, and insisted that revenue be kept separate so they knew exactly what was coming in the farebox. As a result, North park for 10 (?) years dumped Evanston bus fareboxes at a dedicated vault at the vault island, and in order to make doubly sure nobody mixed things up, Evanston buses were given a separate number series, which over the years went from 0 to 64 (not all numbers used). In addition, contrary to practice at the time, Evanston pullouts and pullins were specifically prohibited from carrying passengers south of Howard St, again so that things would not get financially mixed up. Once the subsidies ended, in 1983 I believe, any bus could be used in Evanston, and soon there were ETHS school trippers that were interlined with Clark and Sheridan.

Up until 2009, Evanston was strictly Nprth Park. In 2/09 FG took over some service on 201-205-206 and 97, but in 2013 FG service on 201 and 97 was eliminated as was NP service on 205 and 206 except for a couple of PM ETHS doubles that run with artics.

I have never seent and artic on Evanston routes, besides I think the 205,and 206 are split between NP and FG.

[jajuan]

I have never seent and artic on Evanston routes, besides I think the 205,and 206 are split between NP and FG.

He didn't mention anything about artics being on those routes. Don't forget there was the time before 2005 when CTA's artic count numbered far less than 200 let alone the 300-plus of today. And notice he said the school trippers interlined with the 22 and 151 started soon after the 1983 funding changes. NP had far fewer artics on hand back then than the 120 something it has now in the final weeks of 2014, meaning the 22 and 151 were operated both still heavily operated with 40 buses then.

[Busjack]

He didn't mention anything about artics being on those routes. Don't forget there was the time before 2005 when CTA's artic count numbered far less than 200 let alone the 300-plus of today. And notice he said the school trippers interlined with the 22 and 151 started soon after the 1983 funding changes. NP had far fewer artics on hand back then than the 120 something it has now in the final weeks of 2014, meaning the 22 and 151 were operated both still heavily operated with 40 buses then.

The school trippers were still in Evanston, and Andre did mention those.

My personal reaction to first seeing MR's post was that what made him think Evanston would need artics, since its boarding statistics for CTA are comparable to Pace, but since Andre said that....

[MRChiCity]

Must have miss-read sorry, that said how come the 205 and 206 are split between FG and NP instead of running them all out of NP?

[jajuan]

The school trippers were still in Evanston, and Andre did mention those.

My personal reaction to first seeing MR's post was that what made him think Evanston would need artics, since its boarding statistics for CTA are comparable to Pace, but since Andre said that....

Yes I get where the impression would make anyone think artics, but I took note that he also said soon after 1983 was when the school trippers interlined with #22 and #151 started and CTA's total artic count at the time still being substantially less than half the 300-plus it is today making NP lucky if it's share got far beyond 35 to 40 with them all primarily reserved for and assigned to the #147. The #22 and #151 were both still being run with just about all 40 foot buses at that time, making it just as unlikely or at best rare to see any artics on the CTA Evanston routes.

[Busjack]

... but in 2013 FG service on 201 and 97 was eliminated as was NP service on 205 and 206 except for a couple of PM ETHS doubles that run with artics.

Yes I get where the impression would make anyone think artics, but I took note that he also said soon after 1983 was when the school trippers interlined with #22 and #151 started and CTA's total artic count at the time still being substantially less than half the 300-plus it is today making NP lucky if it's share got far beyond 35 to 40 with them all primarily reserved for and assigned to the #147. The #22 and #151 were both still being run with just about all 40 foot buses at that time, making it just as unlikely or at best rare to see any artics on the CTA Evanston routes.

Maybe Andre can clarify for himself, but since the reference to artics was after the reference to assignments in 2013, I don't see where you are getting that he was talking about 1983. The 1983 reference seems more to when Evanston no longer had a distinctive fleet because there was not any reason to segregate the fare collections.