Interesting article about the Bus Mechanics

[jajuan]

Im sure the buses are coming in are inspected. A nice long ride on the expressway to CTA garages are one thing. A shock will not break or show wear until its put in use on the city streets. Just like Im sure Nabi did a lot of quality work until the cracked frames started showing up 6 months after they came in the garages. When them buses leave for delivery and the way they get to the garage are 2 different things. Sure eveything looks great at the end of the assembly line, but put it on the road for a few thousand miles and see what happens.

First off, a machine part is not meant to last forever no matter how well it's designed. And since you like to keep bringing up what happens after a few thousand miles, how do you know the wear on the shocks isn't occurring closer to the end of that few thousand miles instead of the upon arrival as you're trying to convince everyone? Your original assertion was that all the buses had bad shocks upon arrival. Now you're saying put the bus on the road for a few thousand miles and see what happens. You can't have it both ways. If the bus has been on the road for a few thousand miles, then that doesn't prove that the bus needed its shocks fixed upon arrival as you originally suggested. Now if any vehicle, even if its been built by the best, doesn't need some type of maintenance after a few thousand miles then I'd truly be amazed.

[BUSANGEL#1]

FYI: If CTA is letting 7 year olds into the mechanical area of the garages, then there really is a problem. Is your dead uncle the one giving you the inaccurate bus delivery sheets?

FYI: My uncle is not dead and it is none of your business where I get my intelligence from. And cta has never had a problem with my age so why do you? And why are you always insulting me?

[jajuan]

I suggest you read the NTSB report yourself, as it speaks for itself. I don't agree with your interpretation, especially around page 40 where it said that "a deficient safety culture existed at the CTA"--not that the CTA was enforcing standards or quotas. While they did say "Track inspectors in the Dearborn Subway did not have sufficient time allotted for inspecting all of their assigned territory twice a week as prescribed," it also says about pages 15 and 16 that the inspectors only put in about 6 hours of work a day (including an hour for lunch) and falsified the records saying they had inspected the whole line when they could not.

So, if you are defending the falsification of records, let us know.

The answer seems to be what jajuan says--if you have a defective bus, write it up.

And as far as workers having to meet productivity standards--apparently you never worked for private industry. Government is starting to learn that there are limits on resources.

My thoughts exactly. Those working for the government have to learn to work more efficiently if they want to keep their jobs.

[jajuan]

FYI: My uncle is not dead and it is none of your business where I get my intelligence from. And cta has never had a problem with my age so why do you? And why are you always insulting me?

Well there is a problem with it because no child should be allowed in the high maintenance areas of a bus garage where there is a potential for injury from that child's natural curiosity making that child likely to wonder off.

[speedracer1407]

The rear shocks all leaked oil. It might not have been that noticeable to most people riding a bus since it didnt make any noises. The right front shocks also broke on about 50% of the buses. That would make a loud banging noise.

I dont' get to ride the 1000s much on the 147; just two in the last month or so. But both of them clearly had failed rear shocks. And one of them, the most recent, made a crushing bang from the right front over large bumps.

Some on this thread seem to assume that busted shocks will make the ride harsh or noisy. Not so. Air springs hold the bus up and cushion bumps while shocks dampen the movement between axle and chassis. Bad shocks won't make the ride more harsh, necessarily, but will produce low-frequency bouncing that doesn't seem to ever stop.

On the last two 1000s I rode, various dips and bumps on LSD initiated a never ending, low-frequency bounce that wasn't harsh, didn't make noise, but was clearly out-of-spec compared to the dozens I've ridden before when 1000s were a bit more prevalent on the 147 and ubiquitous on the 33.

[busfan]

And as far as workers having to meet productivity standards--apparently you never worked for private industry. Government is starting to learn that there are limits on resources.

Each garage runs independant of each other. 1 garage has 6 inspecotrs to do 10 buses, 1 has 5 to do 10 buses. The managers in each garage try to "outdo" each other, especially now that they got their "bonuses" back on performance.

It does not matter how much time they did the job per day. They have "down time" just like there is "down time" when all the buses are on the street. The report still says they did have enough time to inspect all the track that CTA wanted them to.

[artthouwill]

Though I have never worked for CTA, I have worked for at least three different private operators (of which 2 had contracts with Pace). Obviously these operators are tiny compared to CTA so they can do things that are difficult to do at CTA. For example, operators generally speaking drove the SAME bus everyday. Drivers tended to care more about their bus and would be quicker to write problems up. PMs were categorized, simple oil changes were done every 3,000 miles, other more detailed PMs occured at 6,000 or 10,000 mile intervals. Pace would sometimes come in and inspect those buses they owned (Pace's mechanical requirements for contractors seemed much higher than their own shops, but that is another story)., plus all of the contract equipment was in the garage every night, making it easier to perform maintenance, although sometimes buses had to be held in during the day if parts needed to be ordered. In cases of equipment shortages when there were several problems, the most serious problems were held in and lesser problems were put out on the street on the shortest possible runs.

No bus is perfect all the time. With the major pothole problem this city has, shocks are going to be broken. It is not specific to NABI, New Flyer, or any other make. I must admit that some of the NABIs on Pace have some very bad shocks, but it may have been that or no bus showing up at all, and I don't think people would like that at all. Well they should have more mechanics we say, but mechanics cost money, and no one wants to pay for them (a la fare increases or tax increases).

Archer could assign the same Optimas to the University of Chicago routes everyday so the same operators could drive them. I think the maintenance problems on them would be minimal, they could be serviced on the weekends when they are not running. Perhaps 103rd or NP could assign the same NABI artics or New Flyer artics to the same runs everyday, but based on how the garages are built that would take a lot of manuvering to line up the buses which probably would be difficult to do.

[jajuan]

Though I have never worked for CTA, I have worked for at least three different private operators (of which 2 had contracts with Pace). Obviously these operators are tiny compared to CTA so they can do things that are difficult to do at CTA. For example, operators generally speaking drove the SAME bus everyday. Drivers tended to care more about their bus and would be quicker to write problems up. PMs were categorized, simple oil changes were done every 3,000 miles, other more detailed PMs occured at 6,000 or 10,000 mile intervals. Pace would sometimes come in and inspect those buses they owned (Pace's mechanical requirements for contractors seemed much higher than their own shops, but that is another story)., plus all of the contract equipment was in the garage every night, making it easier to perform maintenance, although sometimes buses had to be held in during the day if parts needed to be ordered. In cases of equipment shortages when there were several problems, the most serious problems were held in and lesser problems were put out on the street on the shortest possible runs.

No bus is perfect all the time. With the major pothole problem this city has, shocks are going to be broken. It is not specific to NABI, New Flyer, or any other make. I must admit that some of the NABIs on Pace have some very bad shocks, but it may have been that or no bus showing up at all, and I don't think people would like that at all. Well they should have more mechanics we say, but mechanics cost money, and no one wants to pay for them (a la fare increases or tax increases).

Archer could assign the same Optimas to the University of Chicago routes everyday so the same operators could drive them. I think the maintenance problems on them would be minimal, they could be serviced on the weekends when they are not running. Perhaps 103rd or NP could assign the same NABI artics or New Flyer artics to the same runs everyday, but based on how the garages are built that would take a lot of manuvering to line up the buses which probably would be difficult to do.

Given how big CTA's operations are compared to your example, contract operators for Pace, it would be almost nothing less than impossible to put the same buses on the same runs everyday. You may have some buses operating on a route more than once in a week, but you won't get the all the same buses on the same exact runs all the time. You do put some support behind what I was pointing out to busfan about his contention that all the 1000s had bad shocks upon arrival. Given the pothole problem this city's had, especially from last winter's brutal cold, those shocks are likely to have been broken in service. Plus like I also pointed out, if the mechanics are doing their first inspections on a bus after a few thousand miles no one can definitively say by any stretch that bus's shocks were bad on arrival to the garage or make the leap of logic from there that that model bus is a bad choice. Which brings us back to my other original point, if the bus has a problem that's serious enough to pose a safety hazard, pull the bus from service until the problem is fixed and send out a different bus regardless of the current decrease in mechanics. Btw busfan, that comment about garage managers trying to outdo each other on the maintenance front from one maybe using one more inspector for every ten buses than a different garage manager because of a return of performance based bonuses suggests that you're trying to stick it to the boss.

[BusHunter]

Given how big CTA's operations are compared to your example, contract operators for Pace, it would be almost nothing less than impossible to put the same buses on the same runs everyday. You may have some buses operating on a route more than once in a week, but you won't get the all the same buses on the same exact runs all the time. You do put some support behind what I was pointing out to busfan about his contention that all the 1000s had bad shocks upon arrival. Given the pothole problem this city's had, especially from last winter's brutal cold, those shocks are likely to have been broken in service. Plus like I also pointed out, if the mechanics are doing their first inspections on a bus after a few thousand miles no one can definitively say by any stretch that bus's shocks were bad on arrival to the garage or make the leap of logic from there that that model bus is a bad choice. Which brings us back to my other original point, if the bus has a problem that's serious enough to pose a safety hazard, pull the bus from service until the problem is fixed and send out a different bus regardless of the current decrease in mechanics. Btw busfan, that comment about garage managers trying to outdo each other on the maintenance front from one maybe using one more inspector for every ten buses than a different garage manager because of a return of performance based bonuses suggests that you're trying to stick it to the boss.

I don't see how it is fair that garages are graded on performance. When you have all the new buses at a few garages of course they'll have the better performance rating. Np/103rd are moving towards 70 - 80 percent new equipment that is no older than 1 year. At places that have older equipment breakdowns are more frequent and require more attention. Some equipment is going on 14 years old without a rehab. I would think it more fair that more inspectors or mechanics be used for the garages with older equipment to remain competitive with the newer ones. On another front, since we brought up the shock maintenance there is something I've seen about the #1000's that I don't really like. When you raise the kneeling up and down constantly, the rear shocks tend to lose all there shock absorber capabilities temporarily. This results in that knocking low rider effect that was discussed on here earlier. I believe it may be caused by when the kneeling is raised too high it put's too much weight or pressure on the rear absorbers causing them to fail temporarily. Shockingly in about 10 minutes the shock absorbers return to normal as if nothing is wrong. I don't know what effect this has on the shock absorbers in the long term but it can't be good. BTW, once long ago someone said the kneeling was disconnected on #6000's. Well someone forgot to tell the operator of #6104 of that fact recently. To my shock he used it while I was on board.

[sw4400]

BTW, once long ago someone said the kneeling was disconnected on #6000's. Well someone forgot to tell the operator of #6104 of that fact recently. To my shock he used it while I was on board.

The Flxibles never had kneeling. There would be a light near the door with the words "Kneeling Bus" if they did. I've been on Irving Park and Addison runs with these buses and never seen a operator lower the bus for an elderly passenger or even a wheelchair. All I've seen him/her do is place the bus in "N", set the parking brake, and deploy the wheelchair lift. There is no button or switch anywhere on the dash panel that says "Kneel", nor is there a empty slot where a button or switch once was on these vehicles.

[cta 5555]

Hmm funny any 6000s i drive has a kneeling on it. But we have been told not to used it. Also some are disconnected on the 6000s.

[jajuan]

The Flxibles never had kneeling. There would be a light near the door with the words "Kneeling Bus" if they did. I've been on Irving Park and Addison runs with these buses and never seen a operator lower the bus for an elderly passenger or even a wheelchair. All I've seen him/her do is place the bus in "N", set the parking brake, and deploy the wheelchair lift. There is no button or switch anywhere on the dash panel that says "Kneel", nor is there a empty slot where a button or switch once was on these vehicles.

Yes they did but the kneeling function never worked properly (something to do with the hydraulic fluid leaking completely out when the bus was kneeled if I remember previous posts on this correctly) on them so the function was deactivated or at least it was on some taking into account the above mention of 6104. There is mention of a kneeling function on the front passenger side near the doors on some of the 6000s still in service though it hasn't been used in years.

[cta_44499_FG]

I am a witness when it comes to cta putting bad buses out. My uncle used to be a Mechanic Supervisor managing the bad buses at Beverly before 1988 and at 103rd (after Beverly closed). When rush hour came and buses were needed, he was told to put out buses with bad breaks, engine/transmission problems, and buses without heat or ac out on routes. Most of the times he said that there was really no choice because "good" buses were not plenty. As long as the fare boxes collected the revenue it was ok to put out bad buses.

Heres one for you. Today I had 7613 working the 135. I had reached the end of the route at Wilson/Clarendon to drop of my last passenger, and when I tried to stop the "Low Trac" light on the dash came on, and I literally felt like the bus was not going to stop...it slid pretty good despite I was only doing between 5-7 mph. So, in interest of my own safety I didn't pull-in via Outer Lake Shore Drive...I instead attempted going up Marine Drive. However, when I reached Lawrence I found myself in the same situation only this time as I was slowing down the accordion was pushing into the curb and the back end of going out into the street. At that point I decided it was time to play it safe and call control rather than risk having an accident. Mind you the bus didn't "jack-knife", but it wasn't far off. About an hour or so later a truck came and we got the bus straightened out, and I was instructed on my way despite the fact that I stated I wasn't comfortable pulling it in. Reluctantly I went on my way. All the way down Foster, I found myself driving extremely slow through the snow, and stopping over a block ahead of time. Each and every time I was trying to brake, the "Low Trac" came on and it was a struggle to get to a complete stop. One stop sign I have to admit I blew in fear of sliding and striking parked cars. When I finally got the bus into North Park, an hour and thirty-five minutes later mind you, the bus continued its same game through the vault line. When I informed the spotter, he just looked at me and said "Ok, pull it up to the pump", despite my stating I wasn't comfortable. I drove the bus about halfway, far away from any parked buses and left it.

I have never been afraid of driving any bus in the snow, but that NABI put me in utter fear. Needless to say I got back in safe, but it was at a terrible risk.

[jajuan]

Heres one for you. Today I had 7613 working the 135. I had reached the end of the route at Wilson/Clarendon to drop of my last passenger, and when I tried to stop the "Low Trac" light on the dash came on, and I literally felt like the bus was not going to stop...it slid pretty good despite I was only doing between 5-7 mph. So, in interest of my own safety I didn't pull-in via Outer Lake Shore Drive...I instead attempted going up Marine Drive. However, when I reached Lawrence I found myself in the same situation only this time as I was slowing down the accordion was pushing into the curb and the back end of going out into the street. At that point I decided it was time to play it safe and call control rather than risk having an accident. Mind you the bus didn't "jack-knife", but it wasn't far off. About an hour or so later a truck came and we got the bus straightened out, and I was instructed on my way despite the fact that I stated I wasn't comfortable pulling it in. Reluctantly I went on my way. All the way down Foster, I found myself driving extremely slow through the snow, and stopping over a block ahead of time. Each and every time I was trying to brake, the "Low Trac" came on and it was a struggle to get to a complete stop. One stop sign I have to admit I blew in fear of sliding and striking parked cars. When I finally got the bus into North Park, an hour and thirty-five minutes later mind you, the bus continued its same game through the vault line. When I informed the spotter, he just looked at me and said "Ok, pull it up to the pump", despite my stating I wasn't comfortable. I drove the bus about halfway, far away from any parked buses and left it.

I have never been afraid of driving any bus in the snow, but that NABI put me in utter fear. Needless to say I got back in safe, but it was at a terrible risk.

Now that's outrageous. You told more than one person repeatedly you weren't comfortable with this bus given its condition and they kept telling you to drive it to xx-location. Is there someone higher up you can tell about it who will take the matter seriously? There should be some accountability in this situation. Good to hear you arrived safely.

[BUSANGEL#1]

Heres one for you. Today I had 7613 working the 135. I had reached the end of the route at Wilson/Clarendon to drop of my last passenger, and when I tried to stop the "Low Trac" light on the dash came on, and I literally felt like the bus was not going to stop...it slid pretty good despite I was only doing between 5-7 mph. So, in interest of my own safety I didn't pull-in via Outer Lake Shore Drive...I instead attempted going up Marine Drive. However, when I reached Lawrence I found myself in the same situation only this time as I was slowing down the accordion was pushing into the curb and the back end of going out into the street. At that point I decided it was time to play it safe and call control rather than risk having an accident. Mind you the bus didn't "jack-knife", but it wasn't far off. About an hour or so later a truck came and we got the bus straightened out, and I was instructed on my way despite the fact that I stated I wasn't comfortable pulling it in. Reluctantly I went on my way. All the way down Foster, I found myself driving extremely slow through the snow, and stopping over a block ahead of time. Each and every time I was trying to brake, the "Low Trac" came on and it was a struggle to get to a complete stop. One stop sign I have to admit I blew in fear of sliding and striking parked cars. When I finally got the bus into North Park, an hour and thirty-five minutes later mind you, the bus continued its same game through the vault line. When I informed the spotter, he just looked at me and said "Ok, pull it up to the pump", despite my stating I wasn't comfortable. I drove the bus about halfway, far away from any parked buses and left it.

I have never been afraid of driving any bus in the snow, but that NABI put me in utter fear. Needless to say I got back in safe, but it was at a terrible risk.

That was beyond outrageous, that was plain unacceptable. Im glad you were okay but those instructions you recieved were very careless. I hope that bus is fixed before it is deployed again.

[BUSANGEL#1]

Well there is a problem with it because no child should be allowed in the high maintenance areas of a bus garage where there is a potential for injury from that child's natural curiosity making that child likely to wonder off.

There is no problem if the child is under proper supervision. I was under proper supervision and at age 7, I wasnt that curious. Plus I wasnt the average child at age 7 or any of my childhood years. If it was a problem I wouldnt have been allowed there in the first place.

[jajuan]

There is no problem if the child is under proper supervision. I was under proper supervision and at age 7, I wasnt that curious. Plus I wasnt the average child at age 7 or any of my childhood years. If it was a problem I wouldnt have been allowed there in the first place.

It still doesn't change my opinion.

[jajuan]

That was beyond outrageous, that was plain unacceptable. Im glad you were okay but those instructions you recieved were very careless. I hope that bus is fixed before it is deployed again.

On that I'll agree with you BUSANGEL. With this and the recent bus fire involving another NP NABI, it just reinforces why I haven't been on one especially one from that garage in months and why most of my 147 riding has been in the evenings or Sunday (maybe the occasional Saturday) when there is more likely to find a New Flyer in service on this route.

[trainman8119]

Heres one for you. Today I had 7613 working the 135...

...I have never been afraid of driving any bus in the snow, but that NABI put me in utter fear. Needless to say I got back in safe, but it was at a terrible risk.

This reminds me very much of a similar situation I encountered in Aurora on the old 522.

Of course this was not a 60 foot NABI, but in fact a 35 foot Orion...but pretty much

the same situation. I came upon a stop sign on an icy street. The first time through,

I wasn't prepared, approached the intersection at about 15MPH and slid by the stop sign

and through the intersection, honking my way through praying I wouldn't hit anything.

I slid to the right up into the curb, well across the intersection.

The next trip through, I though I was prepared and 1/2 block away

from the same intersection, I was slowed to no more than 7 MPH and very easily

braked (the entire 1/2 block) as I came up to the intersection. Every time I braked, the bus slid to the right, and was basically out of control (as was the case the first time through). Once again,

I slid, this time short of the intersection, but still into the curb. It was definitely white knuckle time. I realize that buses have more bells and whistles now that should prevent some of

the sliding (anti-skid devices), however with that amount of weight, it is understandable how one could lose control, and along with that, why the maintenence people wanted to ignore it even with the idiot lights flashing on your dashboard.

[greenstreet]

There is no problem if the child is under proper supervision. I was under proper supervision and at age 7, I wasnt that curious. Plus I wasnt the average child at age 7 or any of my childhood years. If it was a problem I wouldnt have been allowed there in the first place.

Jajuan is right. There are no circumstances that would justify having a seven-year-old (or even a 12-year-old for that matter) in a working bus maintenance shop.

That you, and apparently your uncle, would think that there are, shows an extreme level of poor judgment. It also calls into question the opinions and characterizations that your uncle shared with you and you shared with us.

What it does show, if represented accurately, is that during that time period you refer to that CTA management in the garages you visited showed an appalling lack of judgment (if they were aware of your visits), and perhaps this was reflected in their management or maintenance practices. I only hope it's not reflective of the current culture. (though I can't believe it is).

[Busjack]

the "Low Trac" light on the dash came on...

Not to repeat the whole post again.

Anyway, I could never see how a pusher bus could have sufficient traction on an icy street, which is what we had last night. That would also apply to a New Flyer.

Some mechanic should check the tires, so just pull up to the pump wasn't approriate.

Fortunately, the light did its job. But this raises a good question whether a pusher articulated bus can be used in winter conditions.

Jajuan is right. There are no circumstances that would justify having a seven-year-old (or even a 12-year-old for that matter) in a working bus maintenance shop.

That you, and apparently your uncle, would think that there are, shows an extreme level of poor judgment. It also calls into question the opinions and characterizations that your uncle shared with you and you shared with us.

I agree wholeheartedly. It is not for the person involved to say it is good policy to let a 7 year old into a bus garage. Most of the CTA depot areas are closed to the public, have "private property" signs, even though they are taxpayer property, and we have the reports of supervisors hassling people even outside the fence. If (and I say If) something like this happened 10 years ago, I really doubt it is happening now (especially in view of the Homeland Security situation).

[BusHunter]

That was beyond outrageous, that was plain unacceptable. Im glad you were okay but those instructions you recieved were very careless. I hope that bus is fixed before it is deployed again.

I don't think there was anything really wrong with the bus. The roads were extremely challenging last night around 7 or 8 pm thanks to no salt trucks hardly being on the street. I thought there would be more on main roads, but the Mayor must be really cutting the budget. The bus was probably displaying that because it was trying to inform you that it was losing traction. The bus I was on was sliding all over the place and when the gas was pressed at times it would noticably rev before it took off like the wheels were slipping. Now that's only a 40 footer I'm talking about. An artic is even worse with the drive wheels on the center axle when it starts slipping on takeoff it makes the tail start fishtailing. I guess the only thing you can do is take it as easy as you can being late is better than wrecked.

[sw4400]

That was beyond outrageous, that was plain unacceptable. Im glad you were okay but those instructions you recieved were very careless. I hope that bus is fixed before it is deployed again.

What's to fix, BUSANGEL#1? The streets were covered in ice(not uncommon with our fabulous Mayor Daley and his budget "crisis"). He does lighter salt spreads on all the streets now, and only does the side streets on weekdays between the hours of 9a-5p(if they can). You can have a Flxible, TMC, New Flyer D40 or D60, or even the NABI or NOVA, but bottom line here.... if there's ice under the wheels, there's not much you can do(unless the CTA outfits the buses with snow/ice tires and/or chains). If anything should be fixed, it should be the Mayor's head for his b.s about cutting back a vital and important city service that'll insure safety for both the motorists and pedestrians(walking to and from work after the last flash freeze we had, two side streets looked like glazed donuts... literately covered in a very thin sheet of ice!!!) Where's the salt trucks??? Not doing the side streets, that's for sure!!!

Wait till we get a nice big 6+ inch snowfall with a lot of blowing and drifting on a Friday night. You'll see what I mean when you can't drive your car off your side street and have to leave it abandoned in the middle of the street because your in a 2&1/2' snow drift.

Thank you Mayor Daley!!! To hell with your saving money for the 2016 Olympics!!! Use that money for snow and ice removal!!! :angry:

[Busjack]

I'll revise my remarks in light of what BusHunter, sw, and in effect, trainman said. However, I still wonder if the rear engine and drive axle configuration of current articulateds causes more problems. Obviously, you have a greater chance of jackknifing an articulated, but I wonder if the MANs (with the engine and drive under the front compartment) had fewer problems in that regard.

[BusHunter]

I'll revise my remarks in light of what BusHunter, sw, and in effect, trainman said. However, I still wonder if the rear engine and drive axle configuration of current articulateds causes more problems. Obviously, you have a greater chance of jackknifing an articulated, but I wonder if the MANs (with the engine and drive under the front compartment) had fewer problems in that regard.

No kidding, this really makes me wonder how do they deliver these artics through the 15 inch snow covered highways of Wisconsin. With the speeds involved and the spaces being wide open country without to many salt trucks you would think it would be almost impossible to drive these there. Also throw in the fact your driving new equipment. Those drivers must have nerves of steel.