Pace Budget Hearings

[New Flyer]

In todays Tribune in the Marketplace section p.5 where the bids are placed Pace is having hearings next month to eliminate service and raise fares for ADA passengers. 4 routes to be eliminated are from Colonial Coach sub contractor and screw-up for Pace.

326,616,696,699 which would only leave them 2 routes the 600,606. Maybe Pace will finally come to thei8r senses and cancel the contract that expires at the end of the year.

[trainman8119]

In todays Tribune in the Marketplace section p.5 where the bids are placed Pace is having hearings next month to eliminate service and raise fares for ADA passengers. 4 routes to be eliminated are from Colonial Coach sub contractor and screw-up for Pace.

326,616,696,699 which would only leave them 2 routes the 600,606. Maybe Pace will finally come to thei8r senses and cancel the contract that expires at the end of the year.

Don't say that to CTA5750 !!!!! That said, back in my days at Pace, I could never really understand the contracting concept they have. They do lose some control on how things are operated and really don't hold the contractors as accountable for operations as they do their own divisions. That said, Academy has done a nice job running the routes they do have and in my book could continue as the so called 10th Pace division.

[New Flyer]

No they haven't they have been bouncing payroll cheks for over a year and cheating workers out of their pay.

Along with no proper training alot of drivers never new where they were going. I no because I worked for them .Pace took away 4 runs last year because Colonial had such a hi turnover rate and that can be verified by 5750

[Busjack]

The link is here.At least I was correct that if they were going to eliminate any routes,they would have to give notice about it, although this is much closer to the Doomsday list two years ago than anything else Pace has previously done at budget time (in fact some are more extensive). Of course the ADA hearings were posted earlier.

With regard to a high number of Academy routes, it basically is because ridership on the routes isn't there, not necessarily anything Academy itself has done. Most of the routes listed come up every time there is a cutback threatened or a restructuring, such as 210, 616, and 690. It also looks like the DuPage experiments are having trouble, as 711 is on this list (714 earlier).

I'm somewhat surprised that they are proposing such big cutbacks on the South Division feeders, and about 5 Naperville ones.

Saturday proposed cutbacks seem similar to the Doomsday ones. Since I am familiar with some of them, I still contend that community routes would make more sense than fixed ones in many cases (you would still have to pay a driver, but at least the service would be more flexible, so you might get more demand).

Update: Which, in fact, I have entered on the Public Comment form.

[Busjack]

...That said, back in my days at Pace, I could never really understand the contracting concept they have. They do lose some control on how things are operated and really don't hold the contractors as accountable for operations as they do their own divisions....

I thought you said a couple of years ago that so long as the contractors can do it cheaper than Pace divisions, they get some work. Also, Pace can invoke the clauses canceling the contracts upon notice or upon lack of funds, and the problem becomes the contractor's.

I previously asked what happens if Pace significantly cuts something run by a division, such as 714, or on this list, 451-460, 750-753, or many of the weekend routes. Are big layoffs coming? Or is Pace (like admittedly in the paratransit scenario) advertising the worst possible cuts, and doesn't intend to wield the axe to quite this extent?

[trainman8119]

I thought you said a couple of years ago that so long as the contractors can do it cheaper than Pace divisions, they get some work...

...Or is Pace (like admittedly in the paratransit scenario) advertising the worst possible cuts, and doesn't intend to wield the axe to quite this extent?

First part..yes I did...money is the root of all evil. It is not necessarily that they do it cheaper in the operative sense, just they don't have to pay any benefits (not that they are that great anyway). My point was simply I don't understand being an organization with standards (etc) and then farming out work and not make the farm follow the same rules. Same goes with the UP and BNSF. Metra operates under a contract with them, but their crews get paid differently and the adherence to Metra procedure (ie. uniform wearing, for example) is not followed. You lose some of your identity and control to maintain that identity.

As for the second part, its always best to scare the hell out of everyone and let them know the sky is falling when it is nothing much more than a heavy fog outside.

[rotjohns]

If even half of the proposed routes are cut, you can forget any more buses being ordered other than the Eldos that are coming now as everybody will be shifted around. Hey, that's one way to get rid of the rest of the old Orions.

I'm not surprised about the 711, I used to live along that route. Nobody gets on that bus, especially on Sat. 715 is light on Sat also, it simply isn't needed. Now the Naperville routes do surprise me and given this list I'd have to wonder, are the Metra feeder routes worth keeping? More than 1/2 of the routes are them and I know Pace pays a killing to provide that service. I know some are busier than others (Lisle especially), but its pretty clear with all the layoffs in the Chicagoland area, especially downtown, that's less people on Metra and Pace. Thus why ridership is down. Then you've got people who simply would rather drive to the Metra station. Some waiting lists for car parking at Metra are thinning up quicker than expected, these were places that had 7 year waiting lists at times (like Route 59 Metra). It's just so funny now because last year when gas prices were so high, everybody got on public transportation, but now that it's back way down, people wanna drive.

I am in agreement with the fact community routes are way better than fixed bus routes due to the fact they are more flexible, especially on feeder routes. Look at Downers Grove.

[Busjack]

trainman: I'm sure most of it is historical. After all,the number of Pace contractors is down from what it once was (i.e. Pauline not running 767-877-888, Keeshin or whoever not running 626, etc.). Metra seems to be the historic issue that it doesn't want to take over the UP and BNSF commuter employees, while it was forced to take over the Milw and RI ones. The IC seems to have been a separate issue.

The contracts have standards that the contractors must meet, but I suppose there is a question of how thoroughly Pace can enforce them against contractors.

rotjohns: I suppose that gas prices and less employment would be the reasons for cutting back the feeders. Does the list of routes indicate that people in the south suburbs probably lost even more jobs downtown? <rhetorical question>

By community transit, I didn't mean just downsizing from a 40 foot Gillig to a 28 passenger paratransit in Downers Grove, but a smaller, Call and Ride vehicle, such as is used in West Joliet, on a flex route system. Downers Grove is still a fixed route feeder system. From where I am, it is a 1-1/2 mile trip to the Pace bus stop at the Metra station, so I am more likely to use Metra. (I will not drive into downtown Chicago.) However, if there were a Call and Ride System, I might use it.

The real unknown (about which west towns seems to comment) is whether the expansions can credibly be on the table, with this many service cuts being threatened, and ICE money apparently being diverted to paratransit in both 2009 and 2010. I guess we'll have to wait for the Budget Book, which isn't posted yet. Not that it has ever been that reliable.

[trainman8119]

Now the Naperville routes do surprise me and given this list I'd have to wonder, are the Metra feeder routes worth keeping? More than 1/2 of the routes are them and I know Pace pays a killing to provide that service.

Keep in mind the Metra gives Pace a chunk of money for those feeder routes...or at least they used to. They used to have a lot of say in how those routes operated, so I don't think Pace is getting killed too bad, otherwise, given their history, those routes would be gone....long, long, long gone.

[qwantae]

This is getting ridiculous!!!! So if it happens then what are they going to do with 600-606? Send them to Northwest?

[rotjohns]

They would have to, that's the next closest place for them. And considering both of them start at Rosemont and end in Schaumburg, it probably would make sense. That would mean Orion IVs, probably making all those passengers that stand up during rush hour happy.

Busjack you are so right. Look at the Metra feeder routes, ALL of the feeder routes in the south suburbs are slated for the axe. I'd be curious as to how many people get on that route per day. You'd think it be fairly high because I usually see 35-foot Nabis on those routes on Webwatch(the ones I'm able to see anyway), but apparently not. I'm sure hoping that the race card isn't pulled out on this, but it's a question worth asking.

[MetroShadow]

Or is Pace (like admittedly in the paratransit scenario) advertising the worst possible cuts, and doesn't intend to wield the axe to quite this extent?

I will speculate that most (not all) of those routes slated for cuts will probably meet their demise; but keep in mind, they are combining the budget hearings with the elimination proposals (I'm sure there's justification). Its best to just attend the public hearings, view the book, and send out the comment cards. In regards to the feeders/commuter routes: in the event that those routes are cut, the option of vanpools/metra shuttles will be available. Check the pacerideshare.com website to get an understanding of it all, but I would say that this can be a effective method to get people to not drive.

[Busjack]

...

Aside, whomever gets the 655/755/855 remix/899 set will start on November 30 regardless. Question is, did Academy/Colonial get the nod or someone else?

Is there any evidence that they were in fact awarded? Still "Opened, not yet awarded" on the Pace Recent Bid Results page. I noted the earlier Sun-Times article which said "Meanwhile, plans for Pace express buses to ride on the shoulder of theStevenson Expy., along with plans for buses running in regular trafficon I-290, I-355 and I-294, are on hold until Pace can find funding,according to Wilmot. Pace had hoped to have buses running along theStevenson shoulder next spring."

Unless you have inside information,* I'll believe Nov. 30 (just like March 30, 2009) only when the Passenger Notice goes up.

__________________

*And you wouldn't have asked who got the nod if you did.

[rotjohns]

I will speculate that most (not all) of those routes slated for cuts will probably meet their demise; but keep in mind, they are combining the budget hearings with the elimination proposals (I'm sure there's justification). Its best to just attend the public hearings, view the book, and send out the comment cards. In regards to the feeders/commuter routes: in the event that those routes are cut, the option of vanpools/metra shuttles will be available. Check the pacerideshare.com website to get an understanding of it all, but I would say that this can be a effective method to get people to not drive.

Well I'd wonder how many people would get on board with that, especially with so many routes affected. I just think the timing is terrible. I understand Pace has to cut costs and routes that don't generate ridership could be in trouble, but you do have some people that really do need it. Honestly, it would probably be easier to just combine routes. Example, instead of NE and SW Homewood, make it all of Homewood and just spread the time out if needed (the last evening bus is a combo anyway). And Naperville has TOO many routes, I'm sure some of those can be combined. It's a win/win situation I think, they can cut costs. Excess buses can be placed somewhere they are truly needed. But I'm just speculating. I'll reiterate though, Pace is done ordering buses because if these routes get axed, they won't need to. You won't see anymore until the 1999 Nabis are up for retirement.

[Busjack]

In todays Tribune in the Marketplace section p.5 where the bids are placed Pace is having hearings next month to eliminate service and raise fares for ADA passengers....

Three cheers for the Tribune. They pick up this story only 4 days after New Flyer saw the legal advertisement in its own paper. :wub:

[rotjohns]

Three cheers for the Tribune. They pick up this story only 4 days after New Flyer saw the legal advertisement in its own paper.

And there are at least 2 comments on that article (and probably a lot more not seen) that people are complaining as to why buses have just the driver on them and that's all and why Pace has hundreds of vans (is that an exaggeration or the truth?) just sitting there because there are no takers for vanpools. Well I hope people are ready to take on those vanpools now. The more I think about it and the more I look at this list, I'm afraid this is serious now and folks that take Metra will probably have to adjust. Pace is a joke sometimes, but if there are no riders on these routes, why run them?

[Busjack]

And there are at least 2 comments on that article (and probably a lot more not seen) that people are complaining as to why buses have just the driver on them and that's all and why Pace has hundreds of vans (is that an exaggeration or the truth?) just sitting there because there are no takers for vanpools. Well I hope people are ready to take on those vanpools now. The more I think about it and the more I look at this list, I'm afraid this is serious now and folks that take Metra will probably have to adjust. Pace is a joke sometimes, but if there are no riders on these routes, why run them?

There were all sorts of vans parked at South Holland about 2 months ago. However, since the real van parking place is behind headquarters, I suppose one would have to go there to check out that assertion. Of course, the demand for van pools would be affected by the loss of jobs.

Similarly, the community vehicles are part of the Municipal Vanpool Program, but both of us still saw a number of them at South Holland.

Whatever people said about the driver running empty, Pace does have the counts from the IBS. And, as I indicated to the MTA guy and probably to you, just because Pace runs a bus of a certain size doesn't mean it is full, or close to that.

On the other hand, you will hear complaints (especially in the STMG local papers) down to the last person left at the bus stop. However, I am surprised that that many showed up for the 714 hearing.

[rotjohns]

There were all sorts of vans parked at South Holland about 2 months ago. However, since the real van parking place is behind headquarters, I suppose one would have to go there to check out that assertion. Of course, the demand for van pools would be affected by the loss of jobs.

Similarly, the community vehicles are part of the Municipal Vanpool Program, but both of us still saw a number of them at South Holland.

Whatever people said about the driver running empty, Pace does have the counts from the IBS. And, as I indicated to the MTA guy and probably to you, just because Pace runs a bus of a certain size doesn't mean it is full, or close to that.

On the other hand, you will hear complaints (especially in the STMG local papers) down to the last person left at the bus stop. However, I am surprised that that many showed up for the 714 hearing.

That's right there were a bunch of vans at South Holland. I really don't know what they are gonna do, but this will be a very interesting next couple of months. Riders better plan on their cars.

[Busjack]

Since the Pace Proposed Budget is out, I note the following things of interest:

• Expenses for contractor services go up from $10 M to $14, for express bus services, which are "expected to commence."
• Cutting out most of the Academy routes and some DuPage feeders seems covered by the line item "Service Related Reductions" and not the contractor expense line item. Cutting Academy and Colonial routes is $1.87 million of the $3.79 million supposedly saved by all the cuts. Maybe they'll get it back on the express buses.
• The budget calls for 22 40 foot buses, so apparently for those of you who were saying that Pace only buys 30 footers, the Novas will be replaced (directly or indirectly) by 40 foot buses. If procured, wanna bet NABIs? And will Pace just procure those buses, or advertise for bids and options for the ones it intends to replace further down the 5 year plan?
• Replacement of the South Holland facility and land acquisition for apparently 2/3rds of Northwest garage.
• The number of Orion I 35 footers has gone up from 11 to 16. The 40 footers have gone down from 70 to 61 (so 3 more than I figured are theoretically gone).
• None of the 2009 Eldorados is on this list.
• From going to saying that the request for a $4.50 ADA fare was just to get a hearing on the maximum allowed, now the ADA portion of the deficit reduction plan indicates that they need the full $4.50. The budget said that the RTA only required going to $3.00. I wonder, now that CTA base fare goes up to $2.50, whether they will amend that notice to $5.00 [that may be implied by the statement in the hearing notice "and on establishing policy setting ADA fares at twice the cash fare of fixed route service"]. It seems like the fare increase is being suggested to reduce demand more than increase revenues.

At least it's still in color.

[rotjohns]

Since the Pace Proposed Budget is out, I note the following things of interest:

• Expenses for contractor services go up from $10 M to $14, for express bus services, which are "expected to commence."
• Cutting out most of the Academy routes and some DuPage feeders seems covered by the line item "Service Related Reductions" and not the contractor expense line item. Cutting Academy and Colonial routes is $1.87 million of the $3.79 million supposedly saved by all the cuts. Maybe they'll get it back on the express buses.
• The budget calls for 22 40 foot buses, so apparently for those of you who were saying that Pace only buys 30 footers, the Novas will be replaced (directly or indirectly) by 40 foot buses. If procured, wanna bet NABIs? And will Pace just procure those buses, or advertise for bids and options for the ones it intends to replace further down the 5 year plan?
• Replacement of the South Holland facility and land acquisition for apparently 2/3rds of Northwest garage.
• The number of Orion I 35 footers has gone up from 11 to 16. The 40 footers have gone down from 70 to 61 (so 3 more than I figured are theoretically gone).
• None of the 2009 Eldorados is on this list.
• From going to saying that the request for a $4.50 ADA fare was just to get a hearing on the maximum allowed, now the ADA portion of the deficit reduction plan indicates that they need the full $4.50. The budget said that the RTA only required going to $3.00. I wonder, now that CTA base fare goes up to $2.50, whether they will amend that notice to $5.00 [that may be implied by the statement in the hearing notice "and on establishing policy setting ADA fares at twice the cash fare of fixed route service"]. It seems like the fare increase is being suggested to reduce demand more than increase revenues.

At least it's still in color.

I'm betting NABI also, Pace seems to like those buses. Any bets as to where the 40-footers may go? I wouldn't say NW because of all the Orion VIs heading up that way. Not north shore either, already stated don't really need any more 40-footers. I'm thinking either West or possibly South?

[Busjack]

I'm betting NABI also, Pace seems to like those buses. Any bets as to where the 40-footers may go? I wouldn't say NW because of all the Orion VIs heading up that way. Not north shore either, already stated don't really need any more 40-footers. I'm thinking either West or possibly South?

I wouldn't start ruling out places like you do, because:

• Joliet can free up at most 25 buses, several of which were to retire Ikarus or move Nova Classics to SW. Of course, the count changes every time PACE NORTHWEST posts that another West bus is up there, but my reckoning was that there were over 40 Orions at NW before the Joliet business began. Also, before the shifting, there were at most 37 Orion VIs at West, so even if they all moved, that wouldn't retire all 40+ at Northwest, although it might get it close enough that stimulus ElDorados could finish the job.
• My quotes on North Shore not needing bigger buses was based on retiring the Orions, not the Novas. Since they are saying 22 new buses, and there were 22 Novas (apparently 18 now), I wouldn't totally rule it out.

Of course the wild cards are:

• How many buses are freed by how many routes listed in the budget being eliminated?
• Does the proposed cut in frequency on 626 affect North Shore's need to replace its Novas?
• Does Waukegan need 40 foot buses for school runs, and, if so, would these come too late considering it looks like the Orion Is will be done with the stimulus deliveries?
• Does the 5 year capital plan basically indicate that the 1999 NABIs will be replaced when there 12 year FTA life is over? It looks like about 64 buses in 2011 (53 eligible for replacement, and they can haul 6173 out of the yard), 83 in 2012 (about the number of the base order of Orion VIs), 56 in 2013 (slightly short of Option 1) and 37 in 2014 (enough to get rid of the Orion VIs). I assume that the NABIs received in 2003 wouldn't be eligible for replacement until 2015. While the Pace budget has proved totally unreliable in predicting what actually is delivered, I have the feeling that at least the 1999 NABIs, and probably most of the Orion VIs are going to sit where they end up at the end of 2009.

I can make certain calculations in my head, but until Pace shows its hand, such as it did when it started transferring Orion VIs to Northwest, I'm not making predictions. The Heisenberg Principle and all that applies, even though Pace doesn't engage in quantum mechanics.

[Busjack]

Just received the current Moving Forward, which states "potentially a $5.00 [city paratransit] fare given a proposed CTA bus fare increase to $2.50." Hence, my previous inference of $5.00 rather than $4.50 was correct. They are talking about supporting some legislation that changes the paratransit funding formula from $100 M plus or minus sales tax growth to basing it on the prior year's deficit (certainly NOT a way to encourage economies*), but say passage is unlikely during the veto session.

Also, the S-T says Pace is going ahead with the 755, although, again, I mention that I'll believe it when the Passenger Notice goes up.

____________

*However, I see that my rep. is an alternate co-sponsor, whatever that means.

[artthouwill]

First part..yes I did...money is the root of all evil. It is not necessarily that they do it cheaper in the operative sense, just they don't have to pay any benefits (not that they are that great anyway). My point was simply I don't understand being an organization with standards (etc) and then farming out work and not make the farm follow the same rules. Same goes with the UP and BNSF. Metra operates under a contract with them, but their crews get paid differently and the adherence to Metra procedure (ie. uniform wearing, for example) is not followed. You lose some of your identity and control to maintain that identity.

As for the second part, its always best to scare the hell out of everyone and let them know the sky is falling when it is nothing much more than a heavy fog outside.

Maybe Pace has gotten lazy lately, but when I worked for 2 different contractors which had Pace routes, they were very strict. I would see 223 buses (their own) with headlights, marker lights and such out, and they would call and report one marker light out on our Pace bus. Plus Pace would come out and do inspections on our buses. Pace would complain if one of our buses A/C went out, yet you could see every window and roof hatch open on their buses.

At the other place I worked which the company used its own equipment, Pace would only approve 3 buses for the 3 Sears routes that it ran (God forbid if one of the three went down).

Back to the first company, even with all of their nitpicking, when we lost contracts to other companies due to underbidding, twice Pace called us to reinstate us because the other companies could not perform up to their standards.. Pace did wind up axing the 691 Buffalo Grove route and taking the 626 to their Evanston garage.

[artthouwill]

I'm betting NABI also, Pace seems to like those buses. Any bets as to where the 40-footers may go? I wouldn't say NW because of all the Orion VIs heading up that way. Not north shore either, already stated don't really need any more 40-footers. I'm thinking either West or possibly South?

I don't think NABI's are an automatic lock. I would consider seriously New Flyer in this mix. NF will take work to make up for delays in the CTA order. Also, 22 buses is a small order for 40 ft. buses, perhaps Pace will look to piggyback on another agency's order.

[rotjohns]

A thought has occurred to me. If the cuts were to take place, especially at Academy, that would mean there wouldn't be any more service to Harper College (currently served by 696 and 699). Wouldn't that make it the only community college that wouldn't have bus service? That would be a major hit for students there, I'd think.