West Division - Changes & Restructuring

[RJL6000]

how do you know Target tossed out Pace, wheres the proof?, combining the two routes makes sense

No official confirmation yet.

[renardo870]

303/325: So is ridership really low btwn 25th/North and Broadview Village Shopping center? To cut service in Bellwood, Broadview would require walking and getting buses on Lake, St Charles, Madison, Roosevelt and Cermak, God forbid walking to/from Mannheim..I will wait till the hearings come out.

304: I can see cutting service east of North Riverside but why not reroute bus west to Broadview and follow the 325 portion to Roosevelt or Madison and go east to Forest Park CTA? Madison would provide connection to 303 at 19th/Madison is passengers are going btwn Madison and Rosemont CTA for M-F service? Sat svc would be unchanged from Lagrange to No Riverside Mall. Connections would be maintained to 21 and 322

320: How about combining 317/320 from Austin/Madison to Westchester? Still provide service to Courthouse/Blue Line/Proviso East and Madison/Austin. Weekdays and Saturday?

322: How about providing express service btwn North Riverside to 54th/Cermak stopping @ Harlem, Oak Park, Ridgeland, Austin, Central, 54th, Laramie/Cermak and Pink Line terminal? Pace South and Southwest did it a few years with 349, 352, 353, 359, 381, 382, 383, 384, 385 and 386?

[Busjack]

320: How about combining 317/320 from Austin/Madison to Westchester? Still provide service to Courthouse/Blue Line/Proviso East and Madison/Austin. Weekdays and Saturday?

322: How about providing express service btwn North Riverside to 54th/Cermak stopping @ Harlem, Oak Park, Ridgeland, Austin, Central, 54th, Laramie/Cermak and Pink Line terminal? Pace South and Southwest did it a few years with 349, 352, 353, 359, 381, 382, 383, 384, 385 and 386?

Don't know about the other two, but with 320, one has to consider the interline with 315, although Pace showed a willingness to cut that on Saturday. 317, of course, does not run when CTA 17 does (weekday rush hour).

322: I had mentioned before that an ART study was pending on that, and that I had assumed that ART would have to run to the Pink Line. However, if Pace is real serious about not overlapping CTA, and artthouwill is right about freeing up some buses, then the unconfirmed posting makes sense. You do have the weird situation that two suburbs, Cicero and Berwwwwwyn, would, in effect be considered CTA territory, and either the cutback or your limited posted stops only suggestion would confirm that (at least based on the routes you listed, since those are all posted stops north of the city line).

[rotjohns]

To Busjack's point of cutting back 307 to south of Lake Street, this is why the Chicagoland area needs one system. It's clear CTA doesn't want Pace to run along their routes because of, what else, money. Plus the farecard system for both is too confusing, and too expensive. I even read an article about the exact same thing.

[west towns]

[

322: How about providing express service btwn North Riverside to 54th/Cermak stopping @ Harlem, Oak Park, Ridgeland, Austin, Central, 54th, Laramie/Cermak and Pink Line terminal? Pace South and Southwest did it a few years with 349, 352, 353, 359, 381, 382, 383, 384, 385 and 386?

[RJL6000]

I believe the passenger notice or reference to one was poorly written and it actually meant the 'short' trips only between 54th and North Riverside are being cut back not the long haul thru trips. I agree the #322 should run 'express' east of N Riverside Park with select stops. They would probably increase ridership as it provides a better long haul service in the corridor. Let the CTA work the local service. Now that would be service coordination

Actually, all weekday and Saturday trips that currently overlap between the CTA and Pace will be cut back. This means that the new east terminal for long-haul weekday and most Saturday trips will be the North Riverside mall. This means thst no weekday trips and only selected Saturday trips will operate east of the mall (since the CTA currently operates its #21 route all the way to North Riverside Mall Monday through Saturday until midnight).

In other words, Pace is ceding all weekday and most Saturday service on 22nd (Cermak) east of the mall to the CTA. Only Sunday service will continue to overlap between the two agencies on 22nd between the mall and the Pink Line terminal (and the extension of #322 between the mall and the Pink Line terminal will also operate very early Saturday mornings since the CTA does not operate its #21 west of the Pink Line terminal until at least 7 a.m.). Thus, the long-haul trips continuing well into CTA territory will operate on Sundays and early Saturday mornings only.

[artthouwill]

In my hot little hand I have a copy of the actual Pace passenger notice; Pertaining to the 322 it reads:

"Route 322- Cermak - 22nd Street - Eliminate overlapping service on weekdays and Saturdays between North Riverside Park Mall and the CTA Pink Line 54th/Cermak Station when CTA Route 21 is operating, Increase in Saturday hours and frequency. No change to Sunday service."

Translation: When the 21 is operating, 322 will only operate from N Riverside Mall westward Monday through Saturday.

[Busjack]

In my hot little hand I have a copy of the actual Pace passenger notice; Pertaining to the 322 it reads:

Link to the web version.

[artthouwill]

[

322: How about providing express service btwn North Riverside to 54th/Cermak stopping @ Harlem, Oak Park, Ridgeland, Austin, Central, 54th, Laramie/Cermak and Pink Line terminal? Pace South and Southwest did it a few years with 349, 352, 353, 359, 381, 382, 383, 384, 385 and 386?

I believe the passenger notice or reference to one was poorly written and it actually meant the 'short' trips only between 54th and North Riverside are being cut back not the long haul thru trips. I agree the #322 should run 'express' east of N Riverside Park with select stops. They would probably increase ridership as it provides a better long haul service in the corridor. Let the CTA work the local service. Now that would be service coordination

[Busjack]

...

If anyone should provide express service, it should be CTA, after all it is in suburban territory.

That basically goes to the point I made a long time ago that extensions such as 22 and 90 are justified only if on the system used when private carriers had franchises, i.e. that one can't pick up local trips in someone else's territory. However, that isn't the rule today.

The rule today seems to be what I otherwise said, that Pace is more than willing to retreat, and it seems like the only reasonable reading of the Hearing Notice is that 322 will not run east of North Riverside Mall when 22 is running. Hence, art, I don't know why you went back to west town's post.

[RJL6000]

That basically goes to the point I made a long time ago that extensions such as 22 and 90 are justified only if on the system used when private carriers had franchises, i.e. that one can't pick up local trips in someone else's territory. However, that isn't the rule today.

The rule today seems to be what I otherwise said, that Pace is more than willing to retreat, and it seems like the only reasonable reading of the Hearing Notice is that 322 will not run east of North Riverside Mall when 22 is running. Hence, art, I don't know why you went back to west town's post.

Actually, the CTA bus route number of the Cermak (22nd) route is 21, not 22. (There is a CTA route 22, which is actually the Clark Street route - which does not reach Cermak.)

[pudgym29]

Looking at the new Route #303:

As for north terminii: Is it possible that Pace can reach agreement with the mall ownership of the mall at North & 25th Ave. [the Food4Less shop]? (Does a competitor think like this anymore - If Jewel and Target do not want customers arriving on a bus; perhaps Kroger would view this as an advantage?)

Other north terminii: Franklin Park Metra Milwaukee District West station; Conti Pkwy. off Grand Ave. in Elmwood Park; Grand / Nordica CTA terminus; Belmont / Cumberland CTA terminus (although it would be tricky turning out westbound on Belmont from that loop).

River Grove wants to turn that portion of Cumberland | Thatcher between Grand and the railroad tracks into its "entertainment district".

So let me suggest this. Have the #303 run north on 25th Ave to Grand, then east on Grand to Thatcher, with a 6-minute layover at Grand & East River Road so everyone could go get a hot dog at Gene's & Jude's, north on Thatcher to any number of existing bus turnaround loops. Have this supplant the #331 north of Grand Ave.

[Busjack]

Looking at the new Route #303:

So let me suggest this. Have the #303 run north on 25th Ave to Grand, then east on Grand to Thatcher, with a 6-minute layover at Grand & East River Road ....

Despite your culinary travel, the real problem with any layover in River Grove was shown when 307 was cut back to Elmwood Park Village Hall (although it was for a time extended to Triton): River Grove does not want buses idling there.

Happy New Year.

P.S. I thought about that I misidentified the number of the Cermak bus about an hour after I posted.

[west towns]

If anyone should provide express service, it should be CTA, after all it is in suburban territory. Granted the CTa always ran through there with the 25, but at least that service was coordinated with Pace. But since the 25 was combined with the 21, Pace does not factor in. If Pace can "express" its city service (352, 353, 381), why can't CTA 'express" its suburban portion. Perhaps Pace can take back its rush hour service on 317, unless it doesn't have enough equipment to run it sans CTA help.

[cta_44499_FG]

In tune with everyone else, now the #270's Glenbrook Hospital runs are supposed to be doing layovers at Golf Mill, so I guess they eliminated excessive idleing at the Hospital. Speaking of the #422, I'm surprised they pull into Edens Plaza. Seems a bit small for a big bus. One other thing, would it be too strange to just send the #303 east on North Ave and do a turnaround at North/Harlem. That would probably get more riders on that route than using the #325 routing.

The hospitals' new management seems to think they are "above" having a bus sitting in their entrance way...so this is why it is being done. At one point, buses sat there from up to 20 minutes and for fallbacks. Drivers could go in the cafeteria, etc. Now...no more.

[Busjack]

Looking at the Press Release, there seems to be a qualification on the 322 change that was not previously disclosed:

Route 322 would undergo the elimination of so-called shuttle trips that operate only between North Riverside Park Mall and the 54th/Cermak CTA Station to reduce duplication with CTA Route 21, though shuttle trips would remain on days and at hours when Route 21 is not available. Trips on Route 322 operating to/from the west of North Riverside Park Mall are unaffected and will continue to operate to/from the CTA station.

That's not as drastic as was implied at the top of the thread. Compare that to the Public Hearing Notice:

Eliminate overlapping service on weekdays and Saturdays between North Riverside Park Mall and the CTA Pink Line 54th/Cermak Station when CTA Route 21 is operating.

The shuttles seem to be during the 4 a.m. hour, and 21 doesn't get to the mall until 4:57, so I guess that only the 5:02 trip would be cut. Some in the morning rush are to maintain 15 minute headways, so that would seem to be cut to 30. In the evening, the shuttles are to maintain 20 minute headways, so I guess that gets cut to an hour.

However, the implication about people from Yorktown having to transfer at North Riverside to get to 54th doesn't seem to be the case. That also means that my prior statements about how does this affect BRT should also be withdrawn at the moment.

[west towns]

Trib article reports on west changes. It states only the 'short' #322 trips between 54th and North Riverside Park will be cut during times of #21 so the stories of ending all #322 service east of NRP are false. So much for the rumor mill. In fact it appears the Saturday trips which currently end at NRP will operate through to the Pink Line. So much for Pace giving up this corridor as previously reported here.

http://triblocal.com/forest-park/2011/01/12/pace-plans-route-changes/

[Busjack]

Trib article reports on west changes. It states only the 'short' trips between 54th and North Riverside Park will be cut during times of #21 so the stories of ending all #322 service east of NRP are false. So much for the rumor mill.

http://triblocal.com...-route-changes/

I guess I beat you by a second or two, although the article in the main Tribune didn't make any sense in that regard. In any event:

Actually, all weekday and Saturday trips that currently overlap between the CTA and Pace will be cut back. This means that the new east terminal for long-haul weekday and most Saturday trips will be the North Riverside mall. This means thst no weekday trips and only selected Saturday trips will operate east of the mall (since the CTA currently operates its #21 route all the way to North Riverside Mall Monday through Saturday until midnight).

doesn't appear to be the case.

[west towns]

yeah much to do about nothing

[Busjack]

yeah much to do about nothing

Submerged in this is a practical point.

If people turn out on the basis of the Public Hearing Notice, I bet 90% of them will be to testify "I have to get up at 4:00 a.m. to take the Green Line to the Pink Line to 322 to get to my job in Oakbrook. Now you want me to make another transfer," to which the answer is no.

That is what, in effect, happened at the hearings on 240 and 241, where it was reported* that most came out to say that they ride the school runs, but were then told that the hearing is about the 8 people who ride the midday runs, one of whom testified.

_______________

* So reported in the Niles Herald Spectator. While you can search for that story either on its site or Google, the link to the story itself is dead.

[RJL6000]

Thanks Busjack for the clarification and the link to further details on the public hearing regarding Route 322.

Route 304, however, will no longer operate east of North Riverside Mall. During those hours in which the CTA operates Route 21 to North Riverside, the eliminated Route 322 trips include only those short shuttle trips between North Riverside and the Pink Line terminal. Through service operating between the Pink Line terminal and Yorktown will remain unaffected.

In other words, during Route 21 service hours, all trips originating from the 54th/Cermak Pink Line terminal will operate through to Yorktown Shopping Center. Conversely, most trips originating from Yorktown will continue to operate through to the 54th/Cermak CTA Pink Line terminal.

As for the merged 303/325 combination, it remains unclear whether or not there will be weekend service on the newly combined route.

[artthouwill]

Good to hear the 322 won't experience the cuts I thought it would. But it does raise some questions.

The midday "shuttles" between the Pink Line and 17th Ave, will they remain unchanged or will they go. Does any of these "shorties" interline with the current 325 which terminates at 17th Ave/Cermak? It will be interesting to see how the schedule will turn out with the 303 to not only fit in with the other Madison routes from Forest Park, but at the same time keep the current timetable out of Rosemont CTA station.

I think that the 326 should be eliminated. The CTA 80 covers Irving Park to Cumberland in the city. The current 325 and soon to be new 303 covers Irving Park from 25th Ave to River Rd. The 332 can handle the portion on Lawrence between 25th Ave and River Rd. Pace 331 runs along Cumberland to the Cumberland station. I don't think there is much of a ridership between Harlem Irving and Schiller Park to justify keeping this 326 route.

[RJL6000]

The midday "shuttles" between the Pink Line and 17th Ave, will they remain unchanged or will they go. Does any of these "shorties" interline with the current 325 which terminates at 17th Ave/Cermak? It will be interesting to see how the schedule will turn out with the 303 to not only fit in with the other Madison routes from Forest Park, but at the same time keep the current timetable out of Rosemont CTA station.

Based on the revision, it appears that all trips on the combined 303/325 route will operate its entire length - from Forest Park to Rosemont and back. There will be no short turns anywhere along the route (as far as I can tell). All 303 service between 19th/North and 9th/North will be eliminated although service along that stretch of North Avenue will continue to be provided by Route 318.

As for the 322 short trips to 17th, those will be totally eliminated because there will be no 325 at the Broadview Square to connect to. These 322 short trips will be eliminated or extended all the way to Yorktown upon the demise of Route 325 service south of North Avenue.

[RJL6000]

Here are my thoughts

I'm okay with cutting the 304 back to N Riverside, but not the 322. There are a lot of people that board from the Pink Line (and through Cicero and Berwyn) that go to jobs beyond N Riverside. This will make an additional transfer necessary and depending on the origin of that passenger, another fare.

tHE 303 and 325 route combination is intriguing, though I don't think the 25th Ave portion will get the weekend service you think it will.

I just got back from the public hearing. What has been proposed is exactly as your wishes were -- at least for four of the routes.

The 303/325 combination will be on weekdays only (and will take on the 303 route number). Weekend Route 303 trips will continue to operate between the Forest Park Blue Line terminal and the Target and Jewel/Osco on 9th/North.

And as I corrected myself on an earlier post, the 322 will have only those weekday and Saturday shuttle trips that only operate between the end of the Pink Line and North Riverside eliminated during the hours that the CTA operates their Route 21 as far west as North Riverside. As for the weekday Route 322 trips that operate only as far west as the Broadview Square shopping center at 17th Avenue and 22nd Street, those trips will remain - but since there will be no Route 325 for these short trips to connect to (since Route 325 will be eliminated south of 25th/North Avenue), these short trips that end at 17th will simply turn back east towards the Pink Line. Through trips on Route 322 that operate between the Pink Line and Yorktown will remain.

The 304 will be eliminated east of North Riverside.

[Busjack]

I just got back from the public hearing....

The 303/325 combination will be on weekdays only (and will take on the 303 route number). Weekend Route 303 trips will continue to operate between the Forest Park Blue Line terminal and the Target and Jewel/Osco on 9th/North.

...

The public hearing is always good for clarification. However, did they have any explanation for apparently backing down on the notice that 303 will not go to North and 9th (will on Saturday) and your prior statement that Jewel and Target did not want the bus in their lot?