Pace responds to CTA's "Crowd Reduction Plan"

[Busjack]

No you misunderstood a bit. I knew they were stopping in the city but the issue was how close together would the stops be now that CTA has no route on that stretch. For example would 349 continue to stop every four blocks in the city with 49A no longer there?

Someone will have to take a trip out there to find out. The Passenger Notice for 349 mentions adding the stops to 386, but doesn't say anything in that regard for 349.

As I have noted several times before, it appears that Pace decreased the number of stops on Milwaukee, unless there were some stops that were only 56A and not 270 (come to think of it, there might have been). There certainly wasn't any addition to or reduction of the stops on 423.

[jajuan]

Someone will have to take a trip out there to find out. The Passenger Notice for 349 mentions adding the stops to 386, but doesn't say anything in that regard for 349.

As I have noted several times before, it appears that Pace decreased the number of stops on Milwaukee, unless there were some stops that were only 56A and not 270 (come to think of it, there might have been). There certainly wasn't any addition to or reduction of the stops on 423.

Sounds like one of the forum members who live or work near either of those locations near city limits where CTA eliminated a route and the Pace route was one of that had a 'posted stop only' segment through that point with the stops every four blocks where the CTA route used to be.

[trigger]

Someone will have to take a trip out there to find out. The Passenger Notice for 349 mentions adding the stops to 386, but doesn't say anything in that regard for 349.

As I have noted several times before, it appears that Pace decreased the number of stops on Milwaukee, unless there were some stops that were only 56A and not 270 (come to think of it, there might have been). There certainly wasn't any addition to or reduction of the stops on 423.

Except for the rush hour express buses, the stops for 56A and 270 between Jefferson Park and Milwaukee were identical. After 56A was dropped nothing changed. 270 still stops in all of the same places that 56A stopped on Milwaukee.

All of the 56A bus stop signs along Milwaukee have been replaced by bus stop signs that just have the Pace logo on top and a large "270" in the middle, except for the stops between JP and Central that are served by several additional routes. At those stops, the CTA signs have been replaced with new CTA signs that don't have the 56A information on them. Those signs have always had 270 on them and the new replacement signs still do.

[Busjack]

Except for the rush hour express buses, the stops for 56A and 270 between Jefferson Park and Milwaukee were identical. After 56A was dropped nothing changed. 270 still stops in all of the same places that 56A stopped on Milwaukee.

All of the 56A bus stop signs along Milwaukee have been replaced by bus stop signs that just have the Pace logo on top and a large "270" in the middle, except for the stops between JP and Central that are served by several additional routes. At those stops, the CTA signs have been replaced with new CTA signs that don't have the 56A information on them. Those signs have always had 270 on them and the new replacement signs still do.

In that the interval on 270 is clearly every 1/4 mile (see above, I checked), this would be the case only if 56A signs used to be every 1/4 mile. As BusHunter indicates, we don't think that they were.

Correction: Posts were in the CTA thread, mine starting here, BusHunter's here. Maybe that's why you didn't see them.

[jajuan]

In that the interval on 270 is clearly every 1/4 mile (see above, I checked), this would be the case only if 56A signs used to be every 1/4 mile. As BusHunter indicates, we don't think that they were.

Correction: Posts were in the CTA thread, mine starting here, BusHunter's here. Maybe that's why you didn't see them.

Well CTA's 'Weekday Alerts' page gives an answer as far as the 349 goes in taking over for 49A. It states that north of 95th Street, the 349 will stop every half mile but south of 95th it will stop at all local stops. It likely won't be too big a deal given that there's nothing but forest preserves and park land on Western from about 82nd Street down to about 91st Street if you account for small patches of green space at the extremities.

[trigger]

In that the interval on 270 is clearly every 1/4 mile (see above, I checked), this would be the case only if 56A signs used to be every 1/4 mile. As BusHunter indicates, we don't think that they were.

Correction: Posts were in the CTA thread, mine starting here, BusHunter's here. Maybe that's why you didn't see them.

And I will repeat to you: NOTHING HAS CHANGED.

Here are the former 56A stops along Milwaukee Avenue:

3724Jefferson Park Transit CenterSouthboundBus Terminal

4746Jefferson Park Transit CenterNorthwestboundEastside of the Street

9790Milwaukee & AustinSoutheastboundNorthwest Corner

9758Milwaukee & AustinNorthwestboundSoutheast Corner

15035Milwaukee & Bryn MawrSoutheastboundSouthwest Corner

4747Milwaukee & Carmen/NW HighwayNorthwestboundSoutheast Corner

4843Milwaukee & Carmen/NW HighwaySoutheastboundWestside of the Street

9795Milwaukee & CentralSoutheastboundNorthwest Corner

9753Milwaukee & CentralNorthwestboundSoutheast Corner

9534Milwaukee & DevonSoutheastboundNorthwest Corner

7815Milwaukee & Elston/MelvinaNorthwestboundSoutheast Corner

9796Milwaukee & FosterSoutheastboundNorthwest Corner

4748Milwaukee & FosterNorthwestboundSoutheast Corner

9752Milwaukee & FosterNorthwestboundSoutheast Corner

9797Milwaukee & FosterSoutheastboundWestside of the Street

4844Milwaukee & GaleSoutheastboundNorthwest Corner

9763Milwaukee & HaftNorthwestboundEastside of the Street

9785Milwaukee & HaftSoutheastboundNorthwest Corner

15186Milwaukee & HolbrookSoutheastboundSouthwest Corner

14170Milwaukee & Imlay TerminalSouthwestboundBus Terminal

15425Milwaukee & ManilaSoutheastboundSouthwest Corner

9791Milwaukee & MasonSoutheastboundNorthwest Corner

9757Milwaukee & MasonNorthwestboundSoutheast Corner

9789Milwaukee & MedinaSoutheastboundNorthwest Corner

9759Milwaukee & MedinaNorthwestboundSoutheast Corner

9793Milwaukee & MenardSoutheastboundNorthwest Corner

9755Milwaukee & MenardNorthwestboundSoutheast Corner

9756Milwaukee & MiltmoreNorthwestboundSoutheast Corner

9764Milwaukee & NagleNorthwestboundEastside of the Street

4842Milwaukee & Northwest HwySoutheastboundSouthwest Corner

9754Milwaukee & ParksideNorthwestboundSoutheast Corner

9788Milwaukee & PetersonSoutheastboundNorthwest Corner

9760Milwaukee & PetersonNorthwestboundSoutheast Corner

9786Milwaukee & RavenSoutheastboundNorthwest Corner

9762Milwaukee & RavenNorthwestboundSoutheast Corner ========================================================================================

Here are the northbound 270 stops between JP and Imlay

Pace 270 Bus Stop List

They are sorted in a different order, for which I apologize.

Go ahead and compare them. Don't take my word for it, go drive the streets to make sure they are really there.

The 56A and 270 stops between JP and Devon are now, and have always been, identical.

[Busjack]

Strangely, Pace added two trips from the Riverdale terminal (Passenger Notice).

[MetroShadow]

Strangely, Pace added two trips from the Riverdale terminal (Passenger Notice).

Wouldn't surprise me if they change the headways in the next pick. Sounds like ridership can't handle the 30 minute runs since the change...

[Busjack]

Wouldn't surprise me if they change the headways in the next pick. Sounds like ridership can't handle the 30 minute runs since the change...

I said strangely, since the buses aren't coming from River Oaks or Homewood. Maybe there is a group of passengers transferring from 348, but I don't really see a source of passengers between 136th and 130th.

[jajuan]

I said strangely, since the buses aren't coming from River Oaks or Homewood. Maybe there is a group of passengers transferring from 348, but I don't really see a source of passengers between 136th and 130th.

Right. When you brought our attention to it yesterday the first thing that popped in my head is what could possibly be a source of passengers on that short a trip outside of the 348 now that the 353 runs express north of 130th?

[artthouwill]

Right. When you brought our attention to it yesterday the first thing that popped in my head is what could possibly be a source of passengers on that short a trip outside of the 348 now that the 353 runs express north of 130th?

Besides traffic from the Riverdale turnaround, there are apartment/townhome complexes along Indiana between 130th and 133rd. There are homes along 133rd and 134th. These residential areas run clise to the west edge of Altgeld Gardens. I need to ride to see if Pace drivers are picking up/dropping off at 130th/Eberhart and 130th/Ellis, though officially they aren't supposed to stop.

[qwantae]

Besides traffic from the Riverdale turnaround, there are apartment/townhome complexes along Indiana between 130th and 133rd. There are homes along 133rd and 134th. These residential areas run clise to the west edge of Altgeld Gardens. I need to ride to see if Pace drivers are picking up/dropping off at 130th/Eberhart and 130th/Ellis, though officially they aren't supposed to stop.

I realized myself when I drove by there, they should relocate their PACE bus Stop signs from south corner of 130th/ Indiana to 130th/ S. Daniel Drive where CTA bus stops at (1st Apartment complexes) East of Indiana Ave before the RR Tracks, and I think PACE should also Stop at Eberhart/ Ellis on 130th for Altgeld Gardens area residences to travel to Red Line quicker.

[Busjack]

I realized myself when I drove by there, they should relocate their PACE bus Stop signs from south corner of 130th/ Indiana to 130th/ S. Daniel Drive where CTA bus stops at (1st Apartment complexes) East of Indiana Ave before the RR Tracks, and I think PACE should also Stop at Eberhart/ Ellis on 130th for Altgeld Gardens area residences to travel to Red Line quicker.

The Posted Stops list says the only stops are "(95th/Dan Ryan to 130th/Indiana) Stops at: 95th/Dan Ryan CTA, 95th/King Dr, Indiana/130th."

The original announcement said that the stops at King Dr. and 130th were to connect with 111 and 34 respectively, and the reroute to the expressway was to speed up the ride from River Oaks or Homewood.

There may be the question art raises whether Pace is enforcing the policy, but it is clear, as a result of what coordination was done as a result of the Crowd Reduction Plan that Pace is not competing with CTA in the overlap areas and certainly is not slowing its service to run a local 130th St. bus.

To get back to the original point:

Wouldn't surprise me if they change the headways in the next pick. Sounds like ridership can't handle the 30 minute runs since the change...

Looking at the schedules, the additional trips leave 136th five minutes before the trips from South Holland (6:32/6:37; 7:30/7:35). Since there isn't spacing like you suggest, my only inference is that Pace wants to get the riders from 136th and north off the buses from South Holland. Art seems to have found a source of those riders.

[jajuan]

Besides traffic from the Riverdale turnaround, there are apartment/townhome complexes along Indiana between 130th and 133rd. There are homes along 133rd and 134th. These residential areas run clise to the west edge of Altgeld Gardens. I need to ride to see if Pace drivers are picking up/dropping off at 130th/Eberhart and 130th/Ellis, though officially they aren't supposed to stop.

And if they are enforcing the express zone, the question becomes will those folks want to walk from the residential complexes and the west edge of Altgeld Gardens over to 130th/Indiana? Basically is the express ride from 130th up to 95th/Dan Ryan a big enough draw to take that walk over just hopping on the 34 which is right at their door step?

[Busjack]

And if they are enforcing the express zone, the question becomes will those folks want to walk from the residential complexes and the west edge of Altgeld Gardens over to 130th/Indiana? Basically is the express ride from 130th up to 95th/Dan Ryan a big enough draw to take that walk over just hopping on the 34 which is right at their door step?

Don't know about that; however, at some point CTA determined that running 104 express from 115th-Cottage to Altgeld Gardens wasn't worth it.

[jajuan]

Don't know about that; however, at some point CTA determined that running 104 express from 115th-Cottage to Altgeld Gardens wasn't worth it.

True. The other trips outside of these trips starting at the 138th Street bus turnaround going to 95th/Dan Ryan at least have the virtue of beginning at River Oaks Mall or the Homewood Park 'n Ride. So we shall see how long these 138th short runs last.

[Busjack]

The Pace March minutes indicate that the buses from Harvey and Blue Island will be express fare (i.e. $4.00), and Pace is going to the RTA to make up the deficit.

But that gets me back to my original question: If these are express fare, why is Pace competing with Metra, which has stations at both origination points?

[MetroShadow]

The Pace March minutes indicate that the buses from Harvey and Blue Island will be express fare (i.e. $4.00), and Pace is going to the RTA to make up the deficit.

But that gets me back to my original question: If these are express fare, why is Pace competing with Metra, which has stations at both origination points?

The fare is now $1.75

[Busjack]

The fare is now $1.75

That's certainly new, and not contemplated at the month old meeting.

[MetroShadow]

That's certainly new, and not contemplated at the month old meeting.

Speculation versus reality? I wouldn't know.

[jajuan]

I believe they also quoted the $1.75 fare on the Facebook post so looks like the Pace execs came down to reality in that CTA will be providing their shuttles as free shuttles even if they're not operating into downtown with the exception of the Roosevelt shuttle that will serve Chinatown riders. The goal after all is to connect to the Red Line and from personal experience and observing other passengers not every Dan Ryan Red Line commuter is headed to or from downtown as Pace execs were thinking with that $4 fare idea. Some are also traveling to the North Side Main stops as well. Pace just has an advantage of being in a position to provide alternatives for passengers who want to bypass the headaches that are sure to come up at 95th and Garfield loading and offloading CTA's bus shuttles. Getting artics from the inner berthing area on the Lafayette side of the 95th terminal onto the bus bridge to head to the 95th entrance ramp to the expressway should be interesting even with a turn radius like a 30 foot bus since you still got 60 feet of bus to maneuver in a tight space.

[artthouwill]

I believe they also quoted the $1.75 fare on the Facebook post so looks like the Pace execs came down to reality in that CTA will be providing their shuttles as free shuttles even if they're not operating into downtown with the exception of the Roosevelt shuttle that will serve Chinatown riders. The goal after all is to connect to the Red Line and from personal experience and observing other passengers not every Dan Ryan Red Line commuter is headed to or from downtown as Pace execs were thinking with that $4 fare idea. Some are also traveling to the North Side Main stops as well. Pace just has an advantage of being in a position to provide alternatives for passengers who want to bypass the headaches that are sure to come up at 95th and Garfield loading and offloading CTA's bus shuttles. Getting artics from the inner berthing area on the Lafayette side of the 95th terminal onto the bus bridge to head to the 95th entrance ramp to the expressway should be interesting even with a turn radius like a 30 foot bus since you still got 60 feet of bus to maneuver in a tight space.

Mr CTA85 could say better, but I think as long as you perform that maneuver away from the curb (or left lane of the inner berthing area) it shoud work fine.

As far as the expresses, especially from Harvey, I wonder how many Metra riders would be tempted to switch over to the express service. If the route goes as I think it will (va I- 57 from Sibley/147th), then I think it would be better to stick with the train and believe that this would have little to no impact on Metra ridership.

I wonder if Pace would consider keeping these express routes AFTER the Red Line project is over. The route cuts of 210 and 355 may suggest not, however the two week trial before the Red Line shutdown begins could provide Pace a sample size of how many people would use the service WITH all other existing Pace and CTA services intact.

I also wonder how many more buses Pace will shift from other garages, mainly West to provide additional service. Perhaps the new Eldorado "express" buses could see time there first, or the leased motor coaches could see time there. Perhaps Pace SW will provide the Blue Island Express service borrowing or receiving West's Orion buses.

[jajuan]

Mr CTA85 could say better, but I think as long as you perform that maneuver away from the curb (or left lane of the inner berthing area) it shoud work fine.

No I'm not saying it's impossible. I was thinking more in terms of it being a possible slow maneuver. So by interesting I was thinking in terms of how it could possibly affect other bus traffic especially during rush hour and adding in that the 29 is still going to layover on the bus bridge

[artthouwill]

No I'm not saying it's impossible. I was thinking more in terms of it being a possible slow maneuver. So by interesting I was thinking in terms of how it could possibly affect other bus traffic especially during rush hour and adding in that the 29 is still going to layover on the bus bridge

The State St buses use the east end of that bridge, so at the most only two State St buses would layover there. Remember Greyhound buses use the same bridge to load/unload, though their zone is in the middle , right by the station exit. Now if TWO Greyhounds are loading/unloading, that would make such a maneuver slow, especially if both 'hounds are 45'. Again, as long as the turn starts from the left hand position of the inner berth, it should be doable.

[Sam92]

Getting artics from the inner berthing area on the Lafayette side of the 95th terminal onto the bus bridge to head to the 95th entrance ramp to the expressway should be interesting even with a turn radius like a 30 foot bus since you still got 60 feet of bus to maneuver in a tight space.

Its possible. Remember, 103rd uses extra artics on the Dan Ryan especially now that they have 65 of them like back in 2010. 95E had artics pretty often along with the 34, and 119 (pretty much everything there) which all use the berthing area for the shuttles. And it seems like a tighter fit leaving the terminal for the routes going eastbound on 95th than to get on I-94. Also the powerpoint mentions that shuttles will use streets that already have some bus service (State, LaFayette and Wentworth?) Probably to avoid the Ryan traffic