4300/4330-series DE60LF/D60LF - Updates

[jajuan]

When the dust settles, it looks like it will be a three garage delivery. First 30-33 103rd, second 30-33 Kedzie, last 30-33 NP. I expect Kedzie to end up with the #4330's, and below #4330 will be at 103rd. They must just be borrowing a few higher buses now at 103rd because they don't yet have all the #4300 - #4329 buses yet.

There's nothing wrong with there being a three garage delivery, but it's still puzzling as to what makes them think it's smart to try to cram 308 artics into only three garages, two of which don't necessarily have the storage space, when they have four artic capable garages available. I say this based on:

(1) Kedzie parking buses at night on the front driveway in front of a number bay doors,

(2) North Park yes having the space but not necessarily the routes since its artic routes are now fully artic covered on the weekends only despite being more stacked with artics than it's ever been, and

(3) They know something has to cover the Dan Ryan shuttles starting three months away yet they made no visible signs so far that any artics will be making their way to 77th (based on your previously stated premise that 77th is good to base the shuttles out of, which looking at it I agree).

On that last point about the Dan Ryan shutdown coming in May, they not only know they have to operate the shuttle routes, but they also mentioned ramped up service to the 14 as one of the alternatives. Yet there enough artics positioned on the south side just to do those two points. And Sam pointed out routes at 77th where some artics can be operated until then.

[jajuan]

We've speculated for a long time that 77th would eventually see artics based on the Red Line Dan Ryan reconstruction coming up this May. Your post suggests that 103rd would at the very least be part of the bus shuttles equation as well. Perhaps K and P will ship out their 40 ft buses to 77th, but it appears that CTA brass doesn't think that 77th has any need for artics at all (no Lakefront Express routes).

Then what is the 2 Hyde Park Express? Swiss cheese? And the 3,4, 79 and 87 have heavy enough bus loads that artics wouldn't be out of place. As far as Kedzie and North Park dumping their 40 ft buses, think that one out just the smallest amount. What do you think they're supposed to use on those local routes that aren't as heavy to need artics? And no it's not realistic to think they'll dump those either.

[artthouwill]

Then what is the 2 Hyde Park Express? Swiss cheese? And the 3,4, 79 and 87 have heavy enough bus loads that artics wouldn't be out of place. As far as Kedzie and North Park dumping their 40 ft buses, think that one out just the smallest amount. What do you think they're supposed to use on those local routes that aren't as heavy to need artics? And no it's not realistic to think they'll dump those either.

I agree with you, but the 2 doesn't have enough ridership to justify artics. The buses on that route are barely full with 40 ft buses, and it is 77th's only "Lakefront" Express. While I agree the 3, 4, 79, and 87 could use them, if you really think about it, there aren't any nondowntown routes that use them on a regular basis.

[BusHunter]

There's nothing wrong with there being a three garage delivery, but it's still puzzling as to what makes them think it's smart to try to cram 308 artics into only three garages, two of which don't necessarily have the storage space, when they have four artic capable garages available. I say this based on:

(1) Kedzie parking buses at night on the front driveway in front of a number bay doors,

(2) North Park yes having the space but not necessarily the routes since its artic routes are now fully artic covered on the weekends only despite being more stacked with artics than it's ever been, and

(3) They know something has to cover the Dan Ryan shuttles starting three months away yet they made no visible signs so far that any artics will be making their way to 77th (based on your previously stated premise that 77th is good to base the shuttles out of, which looking at it I agree).

On that last point about the Dan Ryan shutdown coming in May, they not only know they have to operate the shuttle routes, but they also mentioned ramped up service to the 14 as one of the alternatives. Yet there enough artics positioned on the south side just to do those two points. And Sam pointed out routes at 77th where some artics can be operated until then.

Well they did state last year that the 100 extra buses they would need for the Ryan would be shared between 74th, 77th and 103rd so the most each garage would gain would be in the neighborhood of 30-40 buses. I think 77th is still getting artics, but it's just going to be from NP's #4000's. Either that or NP is going to end up with 190-200 artics which is over 2/3 of that garage. (that sounds kind of ridiculous to me, that would mean using them on routes like #155 and that's not likely going to happen) It sounds like this extra pool of buses from NP, maybe 30-40 (maybe more) would be used for the ryan, along with another 60 from another source. But after that long term they should be assigned to 77th.

[jajuan]

I agree with you, but the 2 doesn't have enough ridership to justify artics. The buses on that route are barely full with 40 ft buses, and it is 77th's only "Lakefront" Express. While I agree the 3, 4, 79, and 87 could use them, if you really think about it, there aren't any nondowntown routes that use them on a regular basis.

Are you sure about that? I've seen buses on the 2 crammed to the gills.

[sw4400]

Well they did state last year that the 100 extra buses they would need for the Ryan would be shared between 74th, 77th and 103rd so the most each garage would gain would be in the neighborhood of 30-40 buses. I think 77th is still getting artics, but it's just going to be from NP's #4000's. Either that or NP is going to end up with 190-200 artics which is over 2/3 of that garage. (that sounds kind of ridiculous to me, that would mean using them on routes like #155 and that's not likely going to happen) It sounds like this extra pool of buses from NP, maybe 30-40 (maybe more) would be used for the ryan, along with another 60 from another source. But after that long term they should be assigned to 77th.

I think Kedzie having 4300's proves otherwise. Another factor is that the only garages artic capable until rehabs are completed in 2015 are Kedzie, North Park, 77th and 103rd. 74th did have artics back when they were only 55' long, but since the stock is now 60' long, only the four above mentioned can house and work on them. Even the Seattle-purchased M.A.N articulateds were 60' and were spread through K, P, 7, and 1 or just a few of the four... I don't know their assignments from receiving them to scrapping.

[BusHunter]

I think Kedzie having 4300's proves otherwise. Another factor is that the only garages artic capable until rehabs are completed in 2015 are Kedzie, North Park, 77th and 103rd. 74th did have artics back when they were only 55' long, but since the stock is now 60' long, only the four above mentioned can house and work on them. Even the Seattle-purchased M.A.N articulateds were 60' and were spread through K, P, 7, and 1 or just a few of the four... I don't know their assignments from receiving them to scrapping.

Well 103rd and 77th would use them, (more likely 77th) and 74th would just get extras (40 footers) from somewhere else. Either displaced #1000's from NP or extra #6400's. I haven't heard anything about CTA retiring those just yet.

[jajuan]

Well they did state last year that the 100 extra buses they would need for the Ryan would be shared between 74th, 77th and 103rd so the most each garage would gain would be in the neighborhood of 30-40 buses. I think 77th is still getting artics, but it's just going to be from NP's #4000's. Either that or NP is going to end up with 190-200 artics which is over 2/3 of that garage. (that sounds kind of ridiculous to me, that would mean using them on routes like #155 and that's not likely going to happen) It sounds like this extra pool of buses from NP, maybe 30-40 (maybe more) would be used for the ryan, along with another 60 from another source. But after that long term they should be assigned to 77th.

Right Bushunter. That's pretty much what I was getting at. I'm not saying 77th would need many artics (they didn't have as many the last time they had them), but at the very least at least let them get 30, regardless of the source. With the contract for however many artics will be purchased after this 100 still to be announced some time in the near future, they have to start getting real that NP, Kedzie and 103rd aren't the only garages available to house artics currently before the garage rehabs get started. And It's looking more like what I said about another garage along with 77th will have a part in running the Dan Ryan shuttles, if 77th has a part in that. Rerouting the Red Line to cover the Ashland/63rd service while the Dan Ryan rail service is shut down, isn't going to put enough a dent in the number of current Dan Ryan ridership that needs to get to and fro between downtown and the south side that 40 footers take much of the rest of that slack. They need to get more artics placed on the south side. Makes sense to start doing that now rather than wait till the summer pick and start shuffling more artics south at the last minute. Well actually after last minute since the summer pick would be about a month into the Dan Ryan shut down.

[sw4400]

Right Bushunter. That's pretty much what I was getting at. I'm not saying 77th would need many artics (they didn't have as many the last time they had them), but at the very least at least let them get 30, regardless of the source. With the contract for however many artics will be purchased after this 100 still to be announced some time in the near future, they have to start getting real that NP, Kedzie and 103rd aren't the only garages available to house artics currently before the garage rehabs get started. And It's looking more like what I said about another garage along with 77th will have a part in running the Dan Ryan shuttles, if 77th has a part in that. Rerouting the Red Line to cover the Ashland/63rd service while the Dan Ryan rail service is shut down, isn't going to put enough a dent in the number of current Dan Ryan ridership that needs to get to and from between downtown and the south side that 40 footers take much of the rest of that slack. They need to get more artics placed on the south side. Makes sense to start doing that now rather than wait till the summer pick and start shuffling more artics south at the last minute. Well actually after last minute since the summer pick would be about a month into the Dan Ryan shut down.

That might be why only the 300 40' bus order was placed. They still haven't placed the 150 order which should be for 60' buses. I would expect that to be bid on later this year with a manufacturer announced at the tail end of this year or early next year. The first of those buses will be delivered near the end of 2014 through early 2015, when one or more additional garages will be able to house and repair articulated buses as garage rehabs will be wrapping up then.

I'm stumped as to why 77th has no artics. I'm sure there are some routes that can use them. And I think it's a dumb idea to get rid of that lot where the NABI's are parked at currently. I think that is where the 77th artics have always been parked. I know there is indoor parking, but I think that is where 77th's 40' fleet has been parked at.

[jajuan]

I think Kedzie having 4300's proves otherwise. Another factor is that the only garages artic capable until rehabs are completed in 2015 are Kedzie, North Park, 77th and 103rd. 74th did have artics back when they were only 55' long, but since the stock is now 60' long, only the four above mentioned can house and work on them. Even the Seattle-purchased M.A.N articulateds were 60' and were spread through K, P, 7, and 1 or just a few of the four... I don't know their assignments from receiving them to scrapping.

We know there are only four garages are artic capable. That's not what we're talking about. The point we're discussing now is that they're still at present acting as if they only have three artic capable garages instead of the stated four. 74th isn't yet a part of the current artic discussion. But you did bring a thought to mind by the mentioning the other three garages (though it's unlikely Forest Glen will see artics given the limited amount of surrounding land in addition to its space limitations), and that's that we probably haven't seen them announce who will build and deliver the artics to come beyond the 4300s because in part of how far off it still is before they can even start the garage rehabs.

[jajuan]

That might be why only the 300 40' bus order was placed. They still haven't placed the 150 order which should be for 60' buses. I would expect that to be bid on later this year with a manufacturer announced at the tail end of this year or early next year. The first of those buses will be delivered near the end of 2014 through early 2015, when one or more additional garages will be able to house and repair articulated buses as garage rehabs will be wrapping up then.

They already did the bid process. They just haven't given a decision on who won the bid.

[BusHunter]

Right Bushunter. That's pretty much what I was getting at. I'm not saying 77th would need many artics (they didn't have as many the last time they had them), but at the very least at least let them get 30, regardless of the source. With the contract for however many artics will be purchased after this 100 still to be announced some time in the near future, they have to start getting real that NP, Kedzie and 103rd aren't the only garages available to house artics currently before the garage rehabs get started. And It's looking more like what I said about another garage along with 77th will have a part in running the Dan Ryan shuttles, if 77th has a part in that. Rerouting the Red Line to cover the Ashland/63rd service while the Dan Ryan rail service is shut down, isn't going to put enough a dent in the number of current Dan Ryan ridership that needs to get to and from between downtown and the south side that 40 footers take much of the rest of that slack. They need to get more artics placed on the south side. Makes sense to start doing that now rather than wait till the summer pick and start shuffling more artics south at the last minute. Well actually after last minute since the summer pick would be about a month into the Dan Ryan shut down.

Well by the time they get these other artics they should have more artic capable garages so the new buses should be going there.

[jajuan]

Well by the time they get these other artics they should have more artic capable garages so the new buses should be going there.

Well they had better not be planning the delivery to start the same time as the new 40 foot buses because full production for those is supposed to be February of next year and from what's been discussed on here, the garage rehabs won't even start until the beginning of next year as well. That means as the new 40 foot buses start coming in we still won't yet have more than four garages available to house artics.

[sw4400]

They already did the bid process. They just haven't given a decision on who won the bid.

Did they? Press Release

The CTA’s plans for an upcoming purchase of up to 150 new articulated (60-foot) clean diesel and hybrid buses, which are also part of the bus fleet modernization plan announced in 2012, will be announced upon completion of the procurement process.

[Busjack]

Did they? Press Release

The CTA’s plans for an upcoming purchase of up to 150 new articulated (60-foot) clean diesel and hybrid buses, which are also part of the bus fleet modernization plan announced in 2012, will be announced upon completion of the procurement process.

We mentioned the Primary Source Rule before.

The specification (per the second addendum) was for 600 buses consisting of a minimum of 300 and a maximum of 450 40 foot buses and a minimum of 50 and a maximum of 150 articulated buses. So far, they have only awarded the minimum 300 40 foot buses. They have the bids for the other part of the order. Maybe they are still doing the technical evaluation, maybe they are still waiting for the money, or maybe, as jajuan suggests, they are waiting until they get the garage facilities, but that's how the procurement process is continuing.

You can go back and read the New Bid thread. There was the debate with the now absent Dante about whether the order could be split, which it turned out that it was.

But, so long as you are unwilling to play newport and download the original documents, don't play cunning linguist.

[jajuan]

Did they? Press Release

The CTA’s plans for an upcoming purchase of up to 150 new articulated (60-foot) clean diesel and hybrid buses, which are also part of the bus fleet modernization plan announced in 2012, will be announced upon completion of the procurement process.

We've been through this before with you highlighting and linking different press releases. You can quote or mention all the press releases you want but that means nothing if you don't show understanding of the full content of those releases or just going to take bits and pieces out of context and change the intent of what those releases mean.

We mentioned the Primary Source Rule before.

The specification (per the second addendum) was for 600 buses consisting of a minimum of 300 and a maximum of 450 40 foot buses and a minimum of 50 and a maximum of 150 articulated buses. So far, they have only awarded the minimum 300 40 foot buses. They have the bids for the other part of the order. Maybe they are still doing the technical evaluation, maybe they are still waiting for the money, or maybe, as jajuan suggests, they are waiting until they get the garage facilities, but that's how the procurement process is continuing.

You can go back and read the New Bid thread. There was the debate with the now absent Dante about whether the order could be split, which it turned out that it was.

But, so long as you are unwilling to play newport and download the original documents, don't play cunning linguist.

Thanks for reminding him that the full order is for both 40 foot and articulated buses, meaning as I said that they already did the bid process for the artics to be acquired beyond the 4300s. They just haven't given their decision yet as to who gets the articulated part of the bid. On that note I don't have to respond further in that regard.

[sw4400]

We mentioned the Primary Source Rule before.

The specification (per the second addendum) was for 600 buses consisting of a minimum of 300 and a maximum of 450 40 foot buses and a minimum of 50 and a maximum of 150 articulated buses. So far, they have only awarded the minimum 300 40 foot buses. They have the bids for the other part of the order. Maybe they are still doing the technical evaluation, maybe they are still waiting for the money, or maybe, as jajuan suggests, they are waiting until they get the garage facilities, but that's how the procurement process is continuing.

You can go back and read the New Bid thread. There was the debate with the now absent Dante about whether the order could be split, which it turned out that it was.

But, so long as you are unwilling to play newport and download the original documents, don't play cunning linguist.

That's what my post here mentioned. I'm suprised you didn't notice that.

[sw4400]

To appease you, jajuan. This is from the linked press release(I don't paste the full article, just the relevant part(s))

CTA will purchase a minimum of 300 buses at an amount not to exceed $148 million (approximately $489,000 per bus plus spare parts and tools), with an option to purchase up to 150 additional buses following Board approval.

300 buses are now ordered, but as the quote clearly states, the 150 need board approval to proceed which hasn't been exercised yet, plus it's an option. The Optimas had an option for 80 more buses that wasn't picked up. NOVA is good with 40' buses, but have only been in the 60' market for a couple of years now. The CTA might be hesitant to award the 150 mixed articulated order to them. This option for 150 isn't set in stone yet and might get rebid.They may outsource it to New Flyer, a company that has been building artics that have been been proven for years now. The CTA is still feeling the burn of going with NABI back in 2003, who were new to the articulated market.

[jajuan]

To appease you, jajuan. This is from the linked press release(I don't paste the full article, just the relevant part(s))

CTA will purchase a minimum of 300 buses at an amount not to exceed $148 million (approximately $489,000 per bus plus spare parts and tools), with an option to purchase up to 150 additional buses following Board approval.

300 buses are now ordered, but as the quote clearly states, the 150 need board approval to proceed which hasn't been exercised yet, plus it's an option. The Optimas had an option for 80 more buses that wasn't picked up. NOVA is good with 40' buses, but have only been in the 60' market for a couple of years now. The CTA might be hesitant to award the 150 mixed articulated order to them. This option for 150 isn't set in stone yet and might get rebid.They may outsource it to New Flyer, a company that has been building artics that have been been proven for years now. The CTA is still feeling the burn of going with NABI back in 2003, who were new to the articulated market.

And you missed the point I made that I stated they went through the bid process already, not whether or not they gave an order to proceed. That wasn't the issue of whether they gave the order to proceed. You stated earlier that they were probably going to bid out for the 50-150 additional artic part of the total up 600 bus order later this year. And my response to you was that they already did the bid process when they did the bids for the 40 foot buses. That's all the SAME procurement process, except for now they awarded for the 40 foot buses but haven't yet given their decision of who will do the artic part of the procurement. Also to consider is they didn't announce just how many 40 foot buses they're intending to buy from NOVA. So that will also play a part in how many additional artics beyond the 4300s now being delivered will be acquired.

[sw4400]

And you missed the point I made that I stated they went through the bid process already, not whether or not they gave an order to proceed. That wasn't the issue of whether they gave the order to proceed. You stated earlier that they were probably going to bid out for the 50-150 additional artic part of the total up 600 bus order later this year. And my response to you was that they already did the bid process when they did the bids for the 40 foot buses. That's all the SAME procurement process, except for now they awarded for the 40 foot buses but haven't yet given their decision of who will do the artic part of the procurement. Also to consider is they didn't announce just how many 40 foot buses they're intending to buy from NOVA. So that will also play a part in how many additional artics beyond the 4300s now being delivered will be acquired.

I'm not going to keep arguing this discussion. But to close it out, show me where you get 600, because the RFP I read was for 450 buses(mixed 40' and 60' buses). That was the only RFP ever put out for buses recently. They can only go up to 400 NOVA LFS buses because the RFP this is from is a minimum 300/maximum 400 40' buses and a minimum 50/maximum 150. Whatever amount of 40' and 60' buses the CTA orders must equal 450, as that is what the RFP required. If you can't show a 600 RFP or another 150 RFP seperate from the 450, then you have your answer.

[BUSANGEL#1]

Are you sure about that? I've seen buses on the 2 crammed to the gills.

Agreed #2 is always packed during the rush, especially in the a.m. When the route was split between 103rd and 77th there was artics on that route (Nabi's of course).

[jajuan]

I'm not going to keep arguing this discussion. But to close it out, show me where you get 600, because the RFP I read was for 450 buses(mixed 40' and 60' buses). That was the only RFP ever put out for buses recently. They can only go up to 400 NOVA LFS buses because the RFP this is from is a minimum 300/maximum 400 40' buses and a minimum 50/maximum 150. Whatever amount of 40' and 60' buses the CTA orders must equal 450, as that is what the RFP required. If you can't show a 600 RFP or another 150 RFP seperate from the 450, then you have your answer.

The original RFP was for 50 mininum artics to 150 max artics PLUS 300 minimum 40 foot standards to a maximum of 450. If they were to exercise all options of both to the maximum number, you get 600 total buses. See? Simple arithmetic along with putting together ALL the details mentioned in regards to this bus order, not just bits and pieces. Read further down in the press release you wanted to quote to me and you would see where they said in addition to the MAXIMUM 450 40 foot buses from NOVA (should they exercise the option), they have plans to purchase UP TO 150 additional articulated buses both clean diesel and hybrid, with the plans of purchase (meaning the selection of a manufacturer) to be announced once this current procurement under which they announced the purchase from NOVA is completed. Now case CLOSED on that front.

[jajuan]

Agreed #2 is always packed during the rush, especially in the a.m. When the route was split between 103rd and 77th there was artics on that route (Nabi's of course).

There were artics on the route even when it belonged to just 77th. Again that was during the NABI era of artics.

[Sam92]

When the dust settles, it looks like it will be a three garage delivery. First 30-33 103rd, second 30-33 Kedzie, last 30-33 NP. I expect Kedzie to end up with the #4330's, and below #4330 will be at 103rd. They must just be borrowing a few higher buses now at 103rd because they don't yet have all the #4300 - #4329 buses yet.

Well, for the moment north park now has a hybrid assigned. Saw it crossing the michigan ave bridge bearing a "North Park Garage" sign.

[jajuan]

Were you meaning to add something behind Bushunter's quote Sam? You put up an otherwise empty post.