Ventra - Bugs, Feedback, and Questions

[Busjack]

I have no "gotcha." All I'm asking for is someone to state their opinion in the fashion of "I think 10% of all Ventra riders are getting screwed/charged incorrectly in some way shape or form". A quantitative measure is just putting a number on something. If we want to start doing a comparison of number of Ventra rides and number of Tattler/ChicagoBus complaints/issues that could be interesting too.

And I work in real estate, nothing remotely related to any company involved in Ventra. I have no bias in that regard.

In the absence of any factual basis (such as discovery in the class action of Ventra records*), what we think is the percentage is not relevant, as I said before. And, obviously, you don't have a basis, either.

The only relevant thing is that in the over 6 weeks since this was supposed to be rolled out to the general public, it is still a mess to the extent that CTA had to admit the customer service and access number and card delivery problems. And since Brian Steele is in the PR business, perception is reality.

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* Going to the OT analogy again, at least HHS has numbers on how many hit healthcare.gov, how many were able to open accounts, and how many made an application.

[BusHunter]

I have no "gotcha." All I'm asking for is someone to state their opinion in the fashion of "I think 10% of all Ventra riders are getting screwed/charged incorrectly in some way shape or form". A quantitative measure is just putting a number on something. If we want to start doing a comparison of number of Ventra rides and number of Tattler/ChicagoBus complaints/issues that could be interesting too.

And I work in real estate, nothing remotely related to any company involved in Ventra. I have no bias in that regard.

10 percent is way too low. i think everyone is getting screwed in one way or another whether that's passes that expire early, double fare charges, or passes that transition to standard fare charges in the middle of the pass. If you need evidence, I can give eyewitness testimony that ventra did the first two things to me in the two weeks I used it. I've talked to people that are talking about no longer riding the CTA/Pace. They have had it, being repeatedly screwed. Enough is enough!! The smartest decision is to go back to transit cards if you can. When Dec 15th comes and everyone is getting screwed, the media backlash will take care of Ventra whether that means it's end or a software upgrade, but in it's present condition it's a joke.

[Amtrak41]

Was CC/CCP this troublesome with the website, over-charging, and a class action suit when it started ?

[jajuan]

So it seems that your quantitative assessment* is that Ventra is worse, while I was only making a comparison of certain facial similarities.

Other difference is that one apparently can apply to insurers directly, who can't turn you down, while the only way for people with balances on the CCP who haven't been treated properly is to sit on hold.

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*for owine's purposes.

From a customer relations standpoint. The feds have been reacting to mishaps immediately relatively speaking. CTA and Cubic let things that probably would have been minor mishaps balloon into major meltdowns by being in some ways slow to react and appearing to have too small of a contingency to mishaps.

[jajuan]

10 percent is way too low. i think everyone is getting screwed in one way or another whether that's passes that expire early, double fare charges, or passes that transition to standard fare charges in the middle of the pass. If you need evidence, I can give eyewitness testimony that ventra did the first two things to me in the two weeks I used it. I've talked to people that are talking about no longer riding the CTA/Pace. They have had it, being repeatedly screwed. Enough is enough!! The smartest decision is to go back to transit cards if you can. When Dec 15th comes and everyone is getting screwed, the media backlash will take care of Ventra whether that means it's end or a software upgrade, but in it's present condition it's a joke.

And saying EVERYBODY is getting screwed is overexaggerating the situation. And Busjack was fair enough in pointing out the spontaneous changing from a pass to a transit card happened on the lady's CCP, not Ventra card.

[Busjack]

Was CC/CCP this troublesome with the website, over-charging, and a class action suit when it started ?

Website, I don't know (and web access to personal accounts was only associated with CCP).

The overall answer appears to be no, but that's because use of mag stripe cards was established first, and then passengers were given the option to go over to CC or CCP for their own convenience. There were additional benefits for using the card, such as the short lived "Go Lane" on buses with wide front doors. It wasn't like there was any deadline to convert from a previous form of media to a new one, with no eventual choice to keep the old media.

There were complaints at the time that the cards themselves were flimsy, and over whether CTA would charge for a new one if the old one was broken.

[BusHunter]

And saying EVERYBODY is getting screwed is overexaggerating the situation. And Busjack was fair enough in pointing out the spontaneous changing from a pass to a transit card happened on the lady's CCP, not Ventra card.

Is it? Didn't you respond to me when I said my pass expired early that "that was OK I've had that happen to me" meaning your ventra pass expired early but that was OK? Believe me I'm not overreacting. I'm lucky if I've used the card 10-15 times before it double charged me. That part of the card is extremely unreliable. I don't see how anyone could use it and not be overcharged. I'll never use that part of the card again, I'll tell you that. That's how strongly I'm against it. For me it's strictly passes or transit cards or I won't use the system. I'm sure I speak for many others as well. So if you use ventra like I told a senior at Jeff Pk. "use it at your own risk" He told me that he has no choice. That is really the crime in this. We've lost the freedom to choose.

[brownliner]

 

or passes that transition to standard fare charges in the middle of the pass.

The source you cited for that says it was Chicago card plus that did that. I know you have a problem with facts getting in the way of your rants, but there are plenty of things to be annoyed with Ventra about without having to make them up.

[Rippler]

So what happens when November 15th comes around and we still don't have our Ventra cards?

I have a Chicago Card Plus and immediately responded to sign up for the new Ventra card back in August. September 4th I got the email with my login info (which I did log in and get set up), where it said I'll receive the card within 7-10 business days. Well it's almost 2 months later and I still don't have the card.

I finally called Ventra last week thinking maybe someone else got the card or it was lost in the mail, but no, they don't show my name as ever having been issued one yet, and assured me that more are going out this week, and another batch on November 5th. I'm not really optimistic at this point about having the card before the cutoff date for using the old cards.

So what happens when November 15th rolls around and some of us still don't have cards? Do we lose what's on the old Chicago Card Plus? Do we have to buy a Ventra Card at an el station and pay the $5 extra for it?

They really have not been very organized in this process. If there was no way they could meet the demand of mailing out the Ventra cards as they said, why bother sending out the emails saying within 7-10 business days? I'm really not too hopeful about getting a card before the deadline anymore and wondering what will happen at that point with the money on my old card, I really don't want to just lose $25+ for no reason.

[BusHunter]

 The source you cited for that says it was Chicago card plus that did that. I know you have a problem with facts getting in the way of your rants, but there are plenty of things to be annoyed with Ventra about without having to make them up.

Jajuan already posted that observation. I was reacting to him saying that not everyone is getting the shaft. There's no reason to flame me. I have tried to keep things civil. I suggest you do the same.

[nflyer22]

...I'm going to order one in the next several minutes after posting this message. I'll make another post when I do receive the card in the coming weeks, if not days, however long the card may take to get here in Urbana.

So what happens when November 15th comes around and we still don't have our Ventra cards?

I have a Chicago Card Plus and immediately responded to sign up for the new Ventra card back in August. September 4th I got the email with my login info (which I did log in and get set up), where it said I'll receive the card within 7-10 business days. Well it's almost 2 months later and I still don't have the card.

I finally called Ventra last week thinking maybe someone else got the card or it was lost in the mail, but no, they don't show my name as ever having been issued one yet, and assured me that more are going out this week, and another batch on November 5th. I'm not really optimistic at this point about having the card before the cutoff date for using the old cards.

...

Yes agreed. I did not forget about my original post; the card I ordered back in August has not arrived either.

Going back to what was said about the introduction of the Chicago Card/Chicago Card Plus, there were many perks that CTA made available to encourage their use back in the day, such as the mentioned Go Lane for faster boarding, but I remember at one point in time there was a 10% bonus when you loaded $20 or more onto your card (you add $20 and you automatically get $22). That was a true selling point for me; unfortunately the bonus got axed with the doomsday cuts.

Since the introduction of Ventra, I thought some similar perks would be offered to customers again to encourage their adoption into daily use (after all, it is set to replace the entire current fare system this time). Unfortunately it's a disappointment that CTA is relying on the debit card option and fees as the ups of the Ventra card, rather than specific transit benefits.

[Busjack]

....but I remember at one point in time there was a 10% bonus when you loaded $20 or more onto your card (you add $20 and you automatically get $22). That was a true selling point for me; unfortunately the bonus got axed with the doomsday cuts.

.....

The mag cards also had that bonus if you loaded up.

[nflyer22]

The mag cards also had that bonus if you loaded up.

Really? I remembered it was something exclusive to CC.

[Busjack]

Really? I remembered it was something exclusive to CC.

The theory was that CTA [back then] appreciated your money in advance, and, basically, there wasn't much difference between loading mag stripe cards and CC at the TVM.

See the below from a 2002 map:

[jajuan]

Is it? Didn't you respond to me when I said my pass expired early that "that was OK I've had that happen to me" meaning your ventra pass expired early but that was OK? Believe me I'm not overreacting. I'm lucky if I've used the card 10-15 times before it double charged me. That part of the card is extremely unreliable. I don't see how anyone could use it and not be overcharged. I'll never use that part of the card again, I'll tell you that. That's how strongly I'm against it. For me it's strictly passes or transit cards or I won't use the system. I'm sure I speak for many others as well. So if you use ventra like I told a senior at Jeff Pk. "use it at your own risk" He told me that he has no choice. That is really the crime in this. We've lost the freedom to choose.

No I did not say it happened to me. I said I carried over a habit of how I timed purchasing new passes as a precaution to my ventra card from my days of using mag strip passes Those two statements are not the same thing sir.In fact never encountered the early expiring pass as you have. So yeah your statement is still an overexaggeration. But do understand I'm speaking from the bass side of things. I can't speak from the transit value side of things because I need to ride too often for the transit card like aspect to be a viable option for fare payment.

[nflyer22]

The theory was that CTA [back then] appreciated your money in advance, and, basically, there wasn't much difference between loading mag stripe cards and CC at the TVM.

...

Thanks for that. My memory never caught that detail.

[MetroShadow]

Theoretically, they should have teethed it when they first started out by rolling out the student passes. In any event, there should have been a slower rollout to a select number of CC and CCP members instead of saying "this is the deadline." As was pointed out in some news reports, whoever Ventra is provided the worst service to theoretically CTA's best customers.

The employee passes were supposed to be the testing sample first, followed by the student/UPass groups. Those weren't "active" until the end of July (and technically the friendly test began a month and a half behind schedule).

[Busjack]

The employee passes were supposed to be the testing sample first, followed by the student/UPass groups. Those weren't "active" until the end of July (and technically the friendly test began a month and a half behind schedule).

I assume that the employee passes didn't involve having to pay for rides, and thus checking one's account to see if they were overcharged, getting a card in the mail, or having to transfer value. Maybe the test determined if the employees were smart enough to tap the correct spot. The student ones would have proved more, and the "negative balance" issue was reported with respect to them.

[MetroShadow]

I assume that the employee passes didn't involve having to pay for rides, and thus checking one's account to see if they were overcharged, getting a card in the mail, or having to transfer value. Maybe the test determined if the employees were smart enough to tap the correct spot. The student ones would have proved more, and the "negative balance" issue was reported with respect to them.

Not precisely. Only on the grounds to make sure the machines actually accept the cards. Obviously different than the student pass.

[Busjack]

Not precisely. Only on the grounds to make sure the machines actually accept the cards. Obviously different than the student pass.

I think that was my point (although maybe not so expressed). Only seeing if the machine accepted the employee pass only tested that, not any other functions of the system that don't seem to have been designed well.

[Busjack]

Moving Forward du jour has, in addition to telling people to view videos on ventrachicago.com or using social media (which I am sure is not available to everyone), various complications requiring that unexpired Pace 10-Ride Plus Tickets and Commuter Club Cards be mailed in for transfer to Ventra, or better be spent down. This is independent of any joint CTA/Pace stored media, which won't be accepted. Going through the wringer includes not only registering the Ventra card, but filling out the web form, mailing it in and waiting 45 days for the transfer. So much for:

“We want customers to have a positive experience as we transi-tion to Ventra, and part of that includes easing the anxiety over what to do with passes that cannot be used before Pace and CTA fully transition to the Ventra system in mid-December,” said Pace Chairman of the Board Richard Kwasneski.

[Busjack]

For whoever asked "how many people were really overcharged?" Hilkevitch now says that CTA and Pace are now trying to "get a handle on the problem."*

Apparently Tammy Chase is just getting around to the data mining that I said was going to result from the class action, anyway. Otherwise, her "trying to minimize" the problems doesn't seem to be working. Now as far as trying to "hold Cubic accountable," including for lost fares, let's see.

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*So, I was correct in saying "we have no basis to know."

Note also that the article says that CTA accused one user of a passback, which is exactly what I said the computer perceived.

[jajuan]

One other thing that comes out of the article is that I guessed right that for some customers with the negative balance issue, those customers were giving themselves those balances inadvertently from tapping again on their own until they got the "Go" message or tapping again at an operators instruction because the operator also thought the card didn't read. Yes they botched their approach in getting problems resolved as I said several times. But a deliberate scam I don't see unless we want to say Pace is also in cohoots when it's been established the service boards don't collaborate on much of anything these days.

[owine]

One other thing that comes out of the article is that I guessed right that for some customers with the negative balance issue, those customers were giving themselves those balances inadvertently from tapping again on their own until they got the "Go" message or tapping again at an operators instruction because the operator also thought the card didn't read. Yes they botched their approach in getting problems resolved as I said several times. But a deliberate scam I don't see unless we want to say Pace is also in cohoots when it's been established the service boards don't collaborate on much of anything these days.

I think multiple taps are to blame for a large segment of the duplicate charges. This stems from the lack of indication that your card has been read successfully but the system is processing your fare payment. I feel like on buses the yellow light above the screen illuminates during this stage, but not on the L but cannot confirm that beyond two bus rides I noticed. As is typical, when we don't get instant gratification from the reader, we endlessly tap until there is an answer. In addition to the processing indicator, they should shut off the sensor once there is a successful read until the "Tap Card" graphic returns.

[artthouwill]

One other thing that comes out of the article is that I guessed right that for some customers with the negative balance issue, those customers were giving themselves those balances inadvertently from tapping again on their own until they got the "Go" message or tapping again at an operators instruction because the operator also thought the card didn't read. Yes they botched their approach in getting problems resolved as I said several times. But a deliberate scam I don't see unless we want to say Pace is also in cohoots when it's been established the service boards don't collaborate on much of anything these days.

I've always wondered if the multitaps were the cause. When I tap my Ventra card, I wait until it tells me either to "Go" or it says "Stop". Sometimes this takes about 5 - 10 seconds, but I wait until I get either/or. If I get the "Stop", then I will tap again and wait until I either get the "Go" or the "Stop". The key word is WAIT. Multiple taps could assume more than one rider, even if you have a pass loaded onto the card. However, that should be fixable. I remember when I had a CC card and tapped it and the CTA operator (on the bus) asked me to tap it again. I did as asked. I took a second ride on another bus route, then when I got to the L for my third ride, that is when I noticed an extra fare was deducted from my card. At the first opportunity the next day, I went to CTA Headquarters to get that extra fare returned to me. The agent who helped me pulled up the history of rides and clearly saw that I paid two fares on the first ride, but only one transfer for the next two rides and he immediately put the fare back on the card. My point is that, between Ventra and CTA, this shouldn't be too hard to correct, unless of course there are multiple taps on multiple rides.

What I am most interested in is how Metra will fit into this? I am sure they are looking at this fiasco now and saying "I told you so!"

UPDATE: I checked the MietroTransit Website (Twin Cities) in regard to fare collection on the Northstar Commuter Line. It says:

BEFORE YOU BOARD THE TRAIN, touch your card to the Go-To circle on the reader on the rail station platform. Otherwise, you risk a $180 fine and/or removal from the train.

If you are boarding at Target Field, Go-To Card readers are

marked for the destination. If you are traveling to Big Lake from Target

Field, you are required to touch your card to the reader labeled "Big

Lake." Otherwise, you may be ticketed for fare evasion.

Initially, the display will show the current fare.

After you validate the card, the display will show the remaining balance and when the transfer expires, if applicable.

If you have special requests – such as paying for more than

one fare or selecting a different destination station – please use the

buttons and menu screen to the left of the Go-To circle prior to

touching the card to the reader.

I'm guessing the A B, C, and D buttons are the fare zones. If Metra were to adopt something simiar to this with Ventra, the letters would go much highler. Then there is the issue of having these machines at every station and that passengers would have to tap their cards prior to boarding the train. This website says you have to have proof that you have paid your fare, but it doesn't make clear how you prove it. Does the conductor have a handheld device that can scan a card for payment history and balance? Does the machine print a ticket (not shown or mentioned anywhere) or receipt as proof of payment? If that is something Metra would be looking into, what if there were vending machines like Metra currently has, but with the option to pay for tickets or passes with Ventra and continue to use the current system, eliminating ticket agents and ticket by mail? I have a hard time imagining pretapping rides at a station like Rt 59 or Naperville during peak hours, or worse yet at Union Station or any downtown Metra station for that matter.