Ventra - Bugs, Feedback, and Questions

[Busjack]

   

There is a provision in mastercard's RFID payment system (I'm too lazy to dig my ventra card out to figure out what the heck they call it.) to allow for offline transactions. In an offline transaction, there's no round trip between the reader and the backend network. It's all done locally, and should take less than second. The chip on the card has a set of parameters that specify when it's allowed to do offline transactions. The card issuer gets to set them, and can do different things based on the account the card is associated with.

...

I can sort of see that if it is a direct charge to a bank card, and Cubic will find out sooner or later if the $5 hold against the card took.

However, if it is a transit account transaction, I don't see how it can verify just on a chip code whether the rider has a pass or transit value, although maybe that's where all the negative balances originate.

[Busjack]

It never fails. The foul up du jour, according to the Sun-Times, is that someone stuck a $10 bill into a Ventra machine 4 times before it would accept it, but then it gave him $40 in transit credit.

I sure wish that would happen to me when I stick a $1 bill into the snack machine.

Also, there is the complaint that they aren't making it too easy for seniors to transfer remaining value from the senior mag stripe card to the Ventra one.

Anyone want to take bets on Wednesday night's report?

[BusHunter]

The half billion is in monthly installments over 10 or 12 years. So, how many false green lights are there going to be over 10 or 12 years? Remember the article about that one outage at 60 rail stations resulted in an estimated 15,000 free rides. The real question is whether CTA can audit the missed fares. One story said something about using cameras, but it should be easier just to use the gps counters in the bus door wells and any counter in the turnstiles. The real question I posed before was the part about locally processed transactions later being flagged.Like I said, the article didn't say how that worked, and whether that is, in effect, what you said.

They are losing alot of fares. Twice tonight I was waived through due to a slow reader. If operators went after every fare, they would be constsntly 30 minutes late. The card is really fallable in the high traffic rush hour.

[brownliner]

 

I can sort of see that if it is a direct charge to a bank card, and Cubic will find out sooner or later if the $5 hold against the card took.

However, if it is a transit account transaction, I don't see how it can verify just on a chip code whether the rider has a pass or transit value, although maybe that's where all the negative balances originate.

 

Well, it's possible to update data on the card. So, it's entirely possible that their updating the card to know approximately what its balance is, or when the pass that's loaded expires. You put $10 on the card, and then go ride a bus. The card knows it's spent two bucks, ride another, card knows it's spent $4. When it gets to (or maybe near) the amount it knew about, it insists on an online transaction, which gets new data on to the card. If online isn't available (remember, buses with radio modems), you might approve the transaction anyway (whether autopay is enabled or not could be a factor on that, so could lots of other things), which is how you'd end up with a negative balance. If online is available, use that, update the issuer data on the card, and approve/decline based on the balance/availability of a pass.

I don't know the details of the cards Ventra is using, so I don't know they can do this. But it's technically possible, given what's possible with mastercard's technology. and it's not an unreasonable way of doing it, and would certainly be an approach I'd investigate if I had to build a system for this.

[Amtrak41]

What they lose goes in the next fare increase. Easier to shake down passengers than a pay-to-play contractor in Chicago.

[Busjack]

....

I don't know the details of the cards Ventra is using, so I don't know they can do this. But it's technically possible, given what's possible with mastercard's technology. and it's not an unreasonable way of doing it, and would certainly be an approach I'd investigate if I had to build a system for this.

My impression is that the cards basically only have an id associated with some account. I really doubt that the vending machines or readers can put information on the card, given such things as that the accounts can be reloaded on line, and Ventra accepts other RFID media--bank cards intentionally and government ID unintentionally. I don't think Chase wants someone else to put garbage on its chip. Apparently, though, they have rolling security codes to limit counterfeiting, so some rewritable data is there.

[jajuan]

I don't think it is going back to the old media, so the choice (as I indicated before) is either Cubic fixes it, or CTA tells Cubic to get its equipment out of here. Not much different than Emanuel dumping the red light camera company, although his motivations were different.

But your poll doesn't tale into account all the consumer fraud associated with Ventra, both on Cubic's and CTA's account. Cubic's might have been accidental, CTA's was not.

I wouldn't exactly say Cubic is totally clear of all fraud though, given what Kevin reminded us about them making the decision to discontinue all the equipment that reads CTA's old electronic fare media and looping CTA into this system whose technology, that we've recently learned, has not been as devoid of malfunctions as Cubic manipulated the history to be. And despite the double speak we've all grown accustomed to from CTA management and their lack of upfront communication giving the impression, it cannot be definitively said part of CTA's intent with switching over to this system was fraud.

[owine]

I wouldn't exactly say Cubic is totally clear of all fraud though, given what Kevin reminded us about them making the decision to discontinue all the equipment that reads CTA's old electronic fare media and looping CTA into this system whose technology, that we've recently learned, has not been as devoid of malfunctions as Cubic manipulated the history to be. And despite the double speak we've all grown accustomed to from CTA management and their lack of upfront communication giving the impression, it cannot be definitively said part of CTA's intent with switching over to this system was fraud.

Cubic didn't discontinue the fare media, the chips have not been made for a long time and CTA bought all remaining chips from my understanding. The chips in CC/CCP cards were also used in Game Boys and production ceased when they stopped making those. My assumption is that the CTA was running out of chips for the cards and that (as well as the State mandate) contributed to the decision to move to a new system.

[jajuan]

They are losing alot of fares. Twice tonight I was waived through due to a slow reader. If operators went after every fare, they would be constsntly 30 minutes late. The card is really fallable in the high traffic rush hour.

North Park operators don't seem to do as many pass throughs. The 22 Clark for example is one route I always seem to encounter slow readers and a number of the operators actually expect you to wait before the reader switches from 'Processing...please wait' to 'Go' or 'Stop'. I've only seen them wave riders through if they made at least three attempts at tapping their cards and still not get a 'Go' read. The only routes I've seen or experienced operators wave Ventra riders through without making an attempt at tapping their cards have been the peak direction rush hour expresses at the start of the route if the Clever Device unit was slow in kicking in and pulling up that bus's destination info for the destination sign and the Ventra reader (remember Ventra readers will show 'Not in use' if the bus doesn't have an in service destination sign up or the Clever Device otherwise showing the bus is in service).

[jajuan]

Cubic didn't discontinue the fare media, the chips have not been made for a long time and CTA bought all remaining chips from my understanding. The chips in CC/CCP cards were also used in Game Boys and production ceased when they stopped making those. My assumption is that the CTA was running out of chips for the cards and that (as well as the State mandate) contributed to the decision to move to a new system.

Oops my mistake, yes the chips not the cards. I didn't bring up the state mandate because of the impression from Chicago Card and CCP users that the mandate could be fulfilled by expanding available passes on CCP from just the monthly CTA/Pace pass to the other passes sold by both agencies. But since I'm not a computer engineer I'm not sure how feasible that actually is.

[Busjack]

I wouldn't exactly say Cubic is totally clear of all fraud though, given what Kevin reminded us about them making the decision to discontinue all the equipment that reads CTA's old electronic fare media and looping CTA into this system whose technology, that we've recently learned, has not been as devoid of malfunctions as Cubic manipulated the history to be. And despite the double speak we've all grown accustomed to from CTA management and their lack of upfront communication giving the impression, it cannot be definitively said part of CTA's intent with switching over to this system was fraud.

• Any fraud by Cubic on the CTA wouldn't be consumer fraud, while the double charging and the like would be.
• Whatever intent CTA had in converting the system, its implementation of it certainly constituted consumer fraud, such as not publishing for 2 or 3 weeks that bank cards would be charged cash fares. But you didn't understand the definition of consumer fraud and deceptive practices then.

[Busjack]

...as well as the State mandate) contributed to the decision to move to a new system.

... I didn't bring up the state mandate because ...

The state mandate is a false fig leaf.

As I pointed out on the CTA Tattler, in response to Kevin O'Neil republishing that, the Rodriguez administration announced the project and first stage RFP in August 2009, the legislation wasn't effective until 7/7/2011. The only reasonable inference behind the purpose of that Public Act was to stick it to Metra, and one can note from the Act itself, certain other elements (such as a transfer policy) that were not implemented by deadlines set by the legislature.

[jajuan]

• Any fraud by Cubic on the CTA wouldn't be consumer fraud, while the double charging and the like would be.
• Whatever intent CTA had in converting the system, its implementation of it certainly constituted consumer fraud, such as not publishing for 2 or 3 weeks that bank cards would be charged cash fares. But you didn't understand the definition of consumer fraud and deceptive practices then.

Number one I knew you were getting at consumer fraud then and now, I just happened to make a broader point on fraud in general to make the point that Cubic isn't completely clean in the effects this rollout has had on riders. Two don't try to insult my intelligence because I don't take your tact of finding things to feed your already biased view to the point of being vendetta against the service boards. I understand the definition of both terms quite well sir. My interpreting a set of facts differently or having a different opinion from YOU does not mean I have a lack of understanding of anything. Last time I checked I don't have to agree with you on every point of minutia to prove any form of understanding. So be careful with how loosely you throw out that statement of someone not understanding any definition.

[brownliner]

 

My impression is that the cards basically only have an id associated with some account. I really doubt that the vending machines or readers can put information on the card, given such things as that the accounts can be reloaded on line, and Ventra accepts other RFID media--bank cards intentionally and government ID unintentionally. I don't think Chase wants someone else to put garbage on its chip. Apparently, though, they have rolling security codes to limit counterfeiting, so some rewritable data is there.

Ventra does the processing of fare cards the same way, using the same protocol as it does for processing bank cards. One of the things that the protocol allows is for the issuer of the card to update the issuer information section of the chip on the card. Metabank can update their cards, but not those issued by someone else. Balance and limit information (and changing pins) are one of the important usage for this feature.

The government ID thing is interesting. I don't know if those cards have the same sort of system as contactless bankcards, or if ventra has provision for tracking some sort of other ID system.

[Amtrak41]

Lots of companies have RFID ID cards. This federal card was one we KNOW about. Perhaps others are keeping it a guarded secret.

[Busjack]

Lots of companies have RFID ID cards. This federal card was one we KNOW about. Perhaps others are keeping it a guarded secret.

For about 20 years, employees of some companies have needed some sort of electronic ID to get past the lobby door or parking lot gate. So, if those chips are no longer being made, the companies have to change to something else, although I know some that use bar code readers.

BTW, the Tribune failed today, in that it reran a complaint, instead of coming up with a new one.

[BusHunter]

I'll give you one. When the drivers do a relief, the ventra can go offline for a space of up to 8 blocks. More lost revenue.....

[Sam92]

I'll give you one. When the drivers do a relief, the ventra can go offline for a space of up to 8 blocks. More lost revenue.....

I noticed that about ventra readers when they first rolled out. A bus had deadheaded to the Dan Ryan to start runs on the N5 and I couldn't tap my card till the reader recognized that it was in service as N5 (which didnt occur until we got to 93rd and Cottage Grove. If it would've been 4 stops further I would've gotten a free ride.

[jajuan]

I'll give you one. When the drivers do a relief, the ventra can go offline for a space of up to 8 blocks. More lost revenue.....

A similar scenario is if a layover lasts long enough for a bus's automatic shutoff to kick in from the engine idling too long, the reader won't necessarily be back online. That usually happens if the operator lets the engine stay shutdown long enough for the Clever Devices unit to require that operator to log back in.

[artthouwill]

A similar scenario is if a layover lasts long enough for a bus's automatic shutoff to kick in from the engine idling too long, the reader won't necessarily be back online. That usually happens if the operator lets the engine stay shutdown long enough for the Clever Devices unit to require that operator to log back in.

The idling issue is an easy fix. The bus shuts off automatically for idling too long IF it is on low idle. Idling the bus on fast idle will fix that. However, I think the city has laws against bus idling for more than 3 minutes (perhaps that is only enforced downtown with OTR coaches).

How are the Ventra readers turned on? Is it automatically whenever the bus is running or is it turned on/off during the farebox log on/off? It would seem that there should be no issue if a driver relief is being made "mid-route".

[Busjack]

The idling issue is an easy fix. The bus shuts off automatically for idling too long IF it is on low idle. Idling the bus on fast idle will fix that. However, I think the city has laws against bus idling for more than 3 minutes (perhaps that is only enforced downtown with OTR coaches).

....

The point is supposed to be saving fuel and minimizing air pollution.

...

How are the Ventra readers turned on? Is it automatically whenever the bus is running or is it turned on/off during the farebox log on/off? It would seem that there should be no issue if a driver relief is being made "mid-route".

The question is whether it is tied to the farebox or the Clever Device. Posts above indicate Clever Device.

[BusHunter]

The point is supposed to be saving fuel and minimizing air pollution. The question is whether it is tied to the farebox or the Clever Device. Posts above indicate Clever Device.

Give that man a cigar!! Yeah, this happens mid route. The ventra reader will go blank and display not in use. If the driver cannot log into it everyone gets a free ride, who uses ventra. A smart person just needs to figure out when are the reliefs and board late or at the next stop and they ride for free.

[Busjack]

Today's story, not necessarily a glitch, goes back to whether thieves can scan and store the RFID codes, indicating that they would rather do so for the prepaid debit card account rather than transit value. But, in addition to safeguards mentioned (maybe the steel wallet ads weren't so farfetched), since the article says that First Data isn't saying how many debit card accounts have been activated, and we can bet darn few, it would seem to be a crapshoot to try to submit a Ventra card number to some merchant.

[owine]

I don't ride the bus regularly but I did over the holiday weekend. I can see why Ventra is not well received on buses, the readers are far slower. I had one reader get stuck on Processing for about 30 seconds and never changed. When I tapped a second time with Processing still on the screen, it successfully processed my ride. I was, however, charged properly for this single ride. I primarily ride the L and Ventra is in far better shape in rail stations than buses it seems. The CTA/Cubic metrics would confirm that as well.

[Busjack]

I don't ride the bus regularly but I did over the holiday weekend. I can see why Ventra is not well received on buses, the readers are far slower. I had one reader get stuck on Processing for about 30 seconds and never changed. When I tapped a second time with Processing still on the screen, it successfully processed my ride. I was, however, charged properly for this single ride. I primarily ride the L and Ventra is in far better shape in rail stations than buses it seems. The CTA/Cubic metrics would confirm that as well.

The question would be if this is a function of the bus needing to rely on the cell phone link, while the turnstiles are probably hard wired to some internet or network connection.