Ventra - Bugs, Feedback, and Questions

[BusHunter]

In that case you may as well be ready to mark your calendar for when any passes loaded onto your Ventra or bank card is set to expire since one thing linking a bank card would do is make it easier on you with not having to try to remember when a preloaded pass is set to expire by automatically reloading the pass for you if you chose automatic reloads.

I don't know if I would choose automatic reloads, unless you ride CTA everyday and never take a vacation because if you reload with say 7 day passes the automatic reload is going to buy you a pass whether you want it or not. I don't even know if it's smart to link it up to a bank account at all, because you are going to have to watch your bank statements constantly to avoid a possible overdraft fee. If you do put it to an account make sure it has lots of money in it. Probably the best policy is just to wait and see what is happening with the initial users, take notes on what you want to do and execute those plans when you have no other choice.

You do have until November to buy the current passes and until the end of the year to use them. That's most likely when they will see a flood of applications for Ventra. I still say this is another parking meter fiasco and we know how that turned out.

[Busjack]

...

I still say this is another parking meter fiasco and we know how that turned out.

I thought this was going to work smoothly as far as how one paid fares. However, first with the inconspicuous stuff about the debit card side, and now that someone contends that you have to read the fine print on the website before you can safely tap, it sure looks like the CTA has done it again and you are absolutely correct. There is a gotcha everywhere one looks. And, of course, the lie again that fares are unaffected.

[jajuan]

I don't know if I would choose automatic reloads, unless you ride CTA everyday and never take a vacation because if you reload with say 7 day passes the automatic reload is going to buy you a pass whether you want it or not. I don't even know if it's smart to link it up to a bank account at all, because you are going to have to watch your bank statements constantly to avoid a possible overdraft fee. If you do put it to an account make sure it has lots of money in it. Probably the best policy is just to wait and see what is happening with the initial users, take notes on what you want to do and execute those plans when you have no other choice.

You do have until November to buy the current passes and until the end of the year to use them. That's most likely when they will see a flood of applications for Ventra. I still say this is another parking meter fiasco and we know how that turned out.

Well I'm on CTA on a daily basis both for work and recreation destinations so automatic renewals is an option that works for me. Basically it all boils down to which option fits your riding pattern. And no there is no gotcha. They're not forcing you to opt for automatic renewal. My whole and only point is it's going to be a larger responsibility on your part to keep track of when any loaded passes expire since obviously the date won't get stamped on the back by a farebox or turnstile like with the current magnetic stripe passes. Now if anyone has an issue with setting up a transit account to streamline purchasing any needed media, that's their right to feel that way. As I'm understanding the user agreement, the pay as you go feature only applies if you use your own credit or debit card without purchasing a set amount of transit value like you would on a Chicago Card or transit card or if you don't load a pass on it. You don't have to register your Ventra account, but the value or pass loaded to it won't be protected should you lose your card. When you load your pass or transit value to your card an unregistered to the card and remains unregistered until you decide to opt to register the Ventra account either online or by phone. Quite frankly I'm just seeing folks get up in arms over fees they can very easily avoid along with options that neither CTA nor Pace is holding a gun to their head to opt for. As I said above it boils down to which options and convenience of use fits YOUR travel patterns and your comfort level with the convenience offered.

[Busjack]

...Quite frankly I'm just seeing folks get up in arms over fees they can very easily avoid along with options that neither CTA nor Pace is holding a gun to their head to opt for. ...

No, it is a simple case of deception. If it is necessary to quote to the lengths that trigger did to avoid fees, the fees are not easy to avoid. This wasn't supposed to be a prospectus for buying Bank of America stock, but someone has turned it into that.

Wait until all the people who preloaded fares onto an RTA issued senior half fare card start being hit with $5 dormancy fees (which CTA claims it is not keeping, but is assessing nonetheless) and the manure really hits the fan, probably in July 2015.

[jajuan]

No, it is a simple case of deception. If it is necessary to quote to the lengths that trigger did to avoid fees, the fees are not easy to avoid. This wasn't supposed to be a prospectus for buying Bank of America stock, but someone has turned it into that.

Wait until all the people who preloaded fares onto an RTA issued senior half fare card start being hit with $5 dormancy fees (which CTA claims it is not keeping, but is assessing nonetheless) and the manure really hits the fan, probably in July 2015.

Well the dormancy fee doesn't kick in on anyone unless they let their cards sit unused for 18 months straight. Avoid that fee by riding the bus or train at least once in a year and half time period. Want to avoid the debit fees? DON'T opt into the debit features. Want to avoid the disposable ticket fee, tap your bank card or credit card if it's equipped with the RFID chip and you don't need transfers OR go online and load you Ventra Card or debit/credit card with enough transit value to cover your trip.And since that's also setting up an unregistered transit account AUTOMATICALLY, you're also avoiding the pay as you go form of fare deduction. And there you have the fees that're causing the most uproar and controversy ALREADY avoided.

[Busjack]

Well the dormancy fee doesn't kick in on anyone unless they let their cards sit unused for 18 months straight. Avoid that fee by riding the bus or train at least once in a year and half time period. Want to avoid the debit fees? DON'T opt into the debit features. Want to avoid the disposable ticket fee, tap your bank card or credit card if it's equipped with the RFID chip and you don't need transfers OR go online and load you Ventra Card or debit/credit card with enough transit value to cover your trip.And since that's also setting up an unregistered transit account AUTOMATICALLY, you're also avoiding the pay as you go form of fare deduction. And there you have the fees that're causing the most uproar and controversy ALREADY avoided.

Which I bet you can't claim with a straight face is at all intuitive.

If the transit side is as fouled up as the prepaid debit card side was, the Tribune lost an opportunity for another expose.

And if this is justified because banks do this, banks pull the same garbage. For instance, I had one say that a certain checking account, required to have a CD, was free with a qualified savings account, but then charged me because a CD was not savings, but an "investment." At least they were courteous enough to refund the fees and change the account. But I'm sure some at the CTA will tell the senior to call the RTA and vice versa, and then accuse the senior of being a dummy or tell them that they shouldn't have preloaded the card if they were only using transit sporadically (like if they live in Buffalo Grove). But seniors yell and vote.

[Kevin]

Interesting. The user agreement says Ventra Tickets can be used for 1, 3, and 7-day passes. But all marketing material to date has said disposable tickets are only for single ride and 1-day passes.

Answer regarding this discrepancy:

https://twitter.com/VentraChicago/status/370246675652026368

[jajuan]

Which I bet you can't claim with a straight face is at all intuitive.

If the transit side is as fouled up as the prepaid debit card side was, the Tribune lost an opportunity for another expose.

And if this is justified because banks do this, banks pull the same garbage. For instance, I had one say that a certain checking account, required to have a CD, was free with a qualified savings account, but then charged me because a CD was not savings, but an "investment." At least they were courteous enough to refund the fees and change the account. But I'm sure some at the CTA will tell the senior to call the RTA and vice versa, and then accuse the senior of being a dummy or tell them that they shouldn't have preloaded the card if they were only using transit sporadically (like if they live in Buffalo Grove). But seniors yell and vote.

If you're savvy enough, it's actually quite logical. And as for some suburban senior who may ride CTA sporadically, Pace is going on the Ventra system too so as long as they have use for Pace also in an 18 month span, they have no need to worry about dormancy fees since I'm making the logical guess you're speaking of seniors who don't qualify for RTA free rides. Like I said, some are so caught up in the mad dash the new system is going to fail under the CTA never does anything right syndrome that got fed by a sometimes overzealous local media and Claypool's mealy mouth inability to talk plain English, that they're ready to go up in arms and view each piece of new info as a new scam now that CTA finally is explaining how the system will work rather than approaching it with a mindset of 'okay this particular option fits my riding pattern and saves me money that would have gone to x,y, or z in extra fares and/or fees. And I can use this or that payment and reload option to keep from running to this store or rail station since I know I'll need transfers.'

[BusHunter]

Really I think no one knows what's going to happen as far as fees, except Ventra, not even the CTA. The problem with Ventra is it puts too much power in Ventra's hand and not in yours, just like the parking meters. If some of our more intelligent members are fooled by the terms, what will happen to the average joe rider. We shouldn't have to attend Ventra University to ride a bus or train. Basically that's what this boils down to. If we are confused, I can only imagine what the tourists will do.

BTW, a quick question, if someone leaves Chicago like they move away to Detroit or whatever can a person turn the Ventra card off?

[Busjack]

Really I think no one knows what's going to happen as far as fees, except Ventra, not even the CTA. The problem with Ventra is it puts too much power in Ventra's hand and not in yours, just like the parking meters. If some of our more intelligent members are fooled by the terms, what will happen to the average joe rider. We shouldn't have to attend Ventra University to ride a bus or train. Basically that's what this boils down to. If we are confused, I can only imagine what the tourists will do.

BTW, a quick question, if someone leaves Chicago like they move away to Detroit or whatever can a person turn the Ventra card off?

You basically have the point. Regardless of whether jajuan thinks that the senior in Buiffalo Grove is going to ride Pace 234 or 272 enough to make any difference, there is also the issue raised before whether CTA is going to con a tourist to buy a $3 Ventra ticket ($5 at O'Hare), take a cash fare off an open source card with no transfer, or bother (after Jan. 1 2014) to pay the extra $5, register the card, and have enough use of it to get the $5 in value back. I assume that none of these people will read the small print.

Your final question is basically whether stored value on the transit portion is refundable, since you can't use that portion at McDonalds. Maybe someone at CTA will tweet an answer to that. #confusing.

[trainman8119]

Ventra....growl growl grumble grumble

[Busjack]

Ventra....growl growl grumble grumble

Take some Pepto. Of course, all Metra has said is that one can flash a half or free fare RTA card to the conductor.

[jajuan]

All it takes is a bit of reading and knowing what you're going to use your card for and what you won't. And what is so frigging hard to comprehend about "dormancy fee applied after 18 months of disuse"? I know I'll actually go ahead and by an actual Ventra card instead of any of the disposable media, won't be going 18 month stretches without using my own card and won't be using any of the prepaid debit features since I have a bank card issued by an actual bank in the historical senxe. So I have a handle on what fees I don't expect to see thrown my way. As for anybody else it's up to them to work out for themselves what transit options suit their own personal needs. I'll respectfully let you guys hash out for yourselves if you're getting scammed or can navigate around those fees which really are avoidable with adequate research on how Ventra should work.

[trainman8119]

I think one of the things that fries me the most about it is that the CTA decided to use it, so no everyone else has to...such BS.

[Busjack]

... adequate research on how Ventra should work.

If that's what it is, then it is deceptive. No gift card is justified on that basis.

I think one of the things that fries me the most about it is that the CTA decided to use it, so no everyone else has to...such BS.

That's reflected in the Pace minutes. Now, Pace has pretty much been on the CTA system, but despite having said that "the cards will be readily available in the suburbs," the Minutes state that Pace has to cough up $2.7 million for Ventra vending machines at various suburban transit centers.

Then there is the usual director asking if Metra is going along. Other than if one of those transit centers is near a Metra station, why is that director so obsessed?

I noted earlier that Metra could not be an automatic conversion due to the open fare area and zone fare structure, but if a condition to Metra joining is that it can get its money only from whom at Meta Bank or whatever controls the fare accounts, maybe it ought to back away.

[jajuan]

If that's what it is, then it is deceptive. No gift card is justified on that basis.

And think you know there's a difference between a gift card and this especially if you stick to the transit only functions and are going to use your transit account, registered or not, on a regular basis.

[Busjack]

And think you know there's a difference between a gift card and this especially if you stick to the transit only functions and are going to use your transit account, registered or not, on a regular basis.

When it comes to deception, apparently the legislature saw some need for legislation in the gift card case, but the CTA is at least exempt from the law, when it is not above it.

I assume that an Arch Card is only good for food, too--not that I am going to be able to pass it at Walmart or get cash from it. Dominick's does, though, cash in some of its gift cards.

As used as trigger initially proposed when he said to stock up, it is functionally no different than a gift card, except as to legal consequences.

[jajuan]

And there still comes a time when people need to just start taking some of their own responsibility in being a smart consumer and look at all available options and pick that which makes the smallest reasonable hit to their wallet when we all know full well any legal company still has to make money if it's expected to stay afloat. Now I read through the user agreement for how to use a transit account (both registered and unregistered since people are given a choice) under this system and pointed out some reasonable ways to not have to contend with those fees that are getting the most gripes. Folks can either use that advice as well as find their own ways to bypass the fees in a manner fitting their transit needs now that the information is finally available, or they can continue to gripe endlessly while ignoring information that's been available to them most of this month.

[Busjack]

And there still comes a time when people need to just start taking some of their own responsibility in being a smart consumer and look at all available options and pick that which makes the smallest reasonable hit to their wallet when we all know full well any legal company still has to make money if it's expected to stay afloat. Now I read through the user agreement for how to use a transit account (both registered and unregistered since people are given a choice) under this system and pointed out some reasonable ways to not have to contend with those fees that are getting the most gripes. Folks can either use that advice as well as find their own ways to bypass the fees in a manner fitting their transit needs now that the information is finally available, or they can continue to gripe endlessly while ignoring information that's been available to them most of this month.

Are you in a position to assure that the user agreement is vended with each card and that bank card users are given notice of it?

At least federal law required that Meta Bank make disclosures with regard to the prepaid debit card portion.

Unless you can give that assurance, your position is a mere hypothetical.

[sw4400]

Are you in a position to assure that the user agreement is vended with each card and that bank card users are given notice of it?

At least federal law required that Meta Bank make disclosures with regard to the prepaid debit card portion.

Unless you can give that assurance, your position is a mere hypothetical.

I agree with you here... Federal Law might require that Meta Bank make notice about fees regarding the Prepaid Debit Card... but the notice will appear at the bottom and this big, so you need to strain your eyes to see it.

[Busjack]

I agree with you here... Federal Law might require that Meta Bank make notice about fees regarding the Prepaid Debit Card... but the notice will appear at the bottom and this big, so you need to strain your eyes to see it.

Are the notices I am asking about going to be any bigger, if they exist?

[sw4400]

Are the notices I am asking about going to be any bigger, if they exist?

I remember the Chicago Cards we sold... they came in envelopes. The Ventra Cards will most likely be the same with the exception of the Ventra Tickets, which will probably be packaged like the current magnet cards are. I can imagine the cards will have the info about how to register it, either through a toll-free number or online, maybe even snail mail. But since there is a Debit Card option, and Meta Bank wants to get people to know about it and sign up, they'll put some sweet little paragraph in there about how you can leave all your Credit and Debit Cards at home and just take this one when you board the buses and trains and go to stores, restaurants, etc... and way at the bottom will be the fine print with all the info about fees and other charges that can apply for certain transactions and services. Not a great many people read the fine print on documents. I can say I haven't, perhaps you look at the fine print of all the documents you get. But that's how companies like Meta Bank will get you, because they know you'll just sign the form or in this case activate that Debit option and not even read that small print at the bottom to make sure you aren't getting burned in the future.

This is from the document about Ventra, article 12: Other Terms. Now if I shrink this down...

12. OTHER TERMS

Termination

The participating transit agencies may terminate this agreement at any time and for any reason. Upon such termination, your use of your Ventra Account may be blocked.

If you cancel your Ventra Account or if your Ventra Account is terminated pursuant to these terms, you will remain responsible for any and all fares that are due or become due on your account.

Governing Law

This Agreement shall be governed and construed in accordance with the laws of the State of Illinois. Venue shall lie in Cook County, Illinois.

Privacy Policy

Your use of Ventra is subject to Ventra's Privacy Policy. In general, the information that is collected in connection with the Ventra program may be used for the management and promotion of Ventra and other participating transit agency programs, services and fare media. Ventra will not sell or disclose your information for any other purpose without your written consent, unless there is a legal requirement for such disclosure.

Personal information you give when you purchase transit passes, value, or your Ventra card may be linked to information about the use of your Ventra account or ticket. The participating transit agencies will use that information to implement Ventra's policies allowing for the recovery of balances on lost or stolen cards. Information concerning your account that is available online will be protected through the use of user names, passwords and PIN numbers that you choose. By providing us with your email address, you agree to receive information concerning your account and the Ventra program by email.

For more information about the Ventra's privacy policy, please refer to the Ventra Privacy Policy on www.ventrachicago.com or call 1.877.NOW.VENTRA (1.877.669.8368).

Disclaimer

THE PARTICIPATING TRANSIT AGENCIES EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY REPRESENTATION OR WARRANTY, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, ANY IMPLIED OR EXPRESS WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. YOU AGREE TO INDEMNIFY AND HOLD THE PARTICIPATING TRANSIT AGENCIES HARMLESS FROM AND AGAINST ANY AND ALL DAMAGE, LOSS, COSTS, EXPENSE, OR LIABILITIES RELATING TO, ARISING FROM, OR AS A RESULT OF YOUR USE OF VENTRA.

You agree to pay any costs, including reasonable attorneys' fees, incurred by Ventra to enforce the terms of this Agreement.

Severability

The invalidity of any term or terms of this Agreement shall not affect any other term of this Agreement, which shall remain in full force and effect.

Modification

The participating transit agencies reserve the right to change these terms and conditions at any time without advance notice.

Assignment

This Agreement cannot be assigned.

Regulations

Use of Ventra is subject to all applicable tariffs, terms, conditions, rules, regulations, policies, and procedures.

Questions about these terms and conditions or Ventra's Privacy Policy Statement should be directed to Ventra Customer Service at 1.877.NOW.VENTRA (1.877.669.8368).

Revised: 08/09/2013

This is the size roughly this section will appear on that document with all the little fee notices and other miscellaneous stuff they have to print according to the law, but don't want you to read, or have to strain to read.

[Kevin]

I remember the Chicago Cards we sold... they came in envelopes. The Ventra Cards will most likely be the same with the exception of the Ventra Tickets, which will probably be packaged like the current magnet cards are.

Many people will get a Ventra Card directly from a vending machine. I doubt they'll come bundled with any additional information.

Ventra Tickets will be available only at rail station vending machines and will not be sold at retail locations.

[jajuan]

Are you in a position to assure that the user agreement is vended with each card and that bank card users are given notice of it?

At least federal law required that Meta Bank make disclosures with regard to the prepaid debit card portion.

Unless you can give that assurance, your position is a mere hypothetical.

I never claimed that my position wasn't but that does not change my point that folks take some form of responsibility to be smart consumers about this now that the information is available finally and not just continue to gripe for the sake of griping. And quite frankly given it's still the beginning stages of implementation, your position is just as hypothetical so using that line of approach to dismiss my point does not work but nice try. Like it or not, this will be the fare system. I get that many folks out there don't like that that's the case. But continuing to try to go back and relitigate that choice with a perpetual and endless circle of "well what about this aspect I don't like? And here's another point I don't like" especially when you've been presented with one way to navigate that issue or had the issue otherwise addressed in what we'll grant is a hypothetical front is just not constructive.

Many people will get a Ventra Card directly from a vending machine. I doubt they'll come bundled with any additional information.

Ventra Tickets will be available only at rail station vending machines and will not be sold at retail locations.

And here lies the reason I've consistently said in this phase of the discussion take some responsibility on your own part to find out what you need to know to make the system work FOR YOU. instead of the system only working for whatever company or agency to feed that drive that's always going to be there to make money since companies do have to make money to exist. To borrow sw's example about the legal documentation referring to relevant fees, if you know that that part of the documentation is printed in small print in hard copy, then don't be that consumer who just won't read that part of the documentation. Be the type of consumer who goes to that same documentation online and blow it back up and read it through until you're comfortable enough in knowing you have the relevant tools on your side of the agreement to make Ventra or any other service work FOR you than AGAINST you.

[Busjack]

Many people will get a Ventra Card directly from a vending machine. I doubt they'll come bundled with any additional information.

Ventra Tickets will be available only at rail station vending machines and will not be sold at retail locations.

And, of course, your bank card will be accompanied by nothing from CTA.