Ventra - Bugs, Feedback, and Questions

[BusHunter]

Like i said I've seen people getting on the CTA bus with cards that have nothing on them even though they did. CTA will most likely waive them through should they have that problem, but Pace is a whole other issue. Pace is really strict on farebox issues and in some cases will probably refuse service to the rider and go as far as call the police on a legitimate rider. That's one reason why Ventra should offer receipts/e- receipts on purchases at the machines. At least you do have some proof you did purchase something. BTW, someone told me that they already have a sign on farebox express machines giving a date as far as there removal from the stations, so i guess the transition has begun.

[owine]

At Clark/Division this morning, the one Ventra machine in the station was not yet in service.

[Busjack]

In the meantime, Hilkevitch reports more screw ups and deception, including that Ventra takes a $5 authorization off a bank card even though it is a $2.25 fare. Supposedly some gas pumps have stickers that they take a set authorization first, but there doesn't seem to be any reason for Ventra to do so.

Somebody who thinks they are taking a $2.75 trip (I ride and 2 transfers) apparently is going to be charged $6.75, but is going to get $15 in holds against their bank card. Now, once I got a call from a credit card company when Circuit City ran an $1100 authorization twice, but I bet people at the margins are not going to be happy that they have all sorts of holds on their accounts, or maybe the 3rd ping in a row will again tell the issuer that the car appears stolen and result in it being deactivated.

Meantime, Kevin of the CTA Tattler complains that purchasing passes on the website is not straightforward.

Again, I realize that this is a phased introduction, but what is tomorrow's mess up gonna be?

[MetroShadow]

Again, I realize that this is a phased introduction, but what is tomorrow's mess up gonna be?

Free Monthly Passes for everyone?! ("You get a monthly pass, and YOU get a monthly pass!!!")

In all seriousness, this might be one of the most unstable growing pains in a lifetime...

[Busjack]

Free Monthly Passes for everyone?! ("You get a monthly pass, and YOU get a monthly pass!!!")

....

I don't think Oprah runs the CTA. If anything, it would be the opposite, i.e. the forfeitures such as described in the article, such as Colette complaining about Pace 10 ride tickets, presumably.

[trigger]

From the terms and Conditions:

Additional information regarding PAYG travel and charges:

• 
  Your credit or debit card may be authorized for up to $5.00 when you
  first tap it at a Ventra fare reader even though the actual fare is
  less. This is a pre-authorization process; you will only be charged the
  actual fare. Multiple rides using PAYG may be aggregated prior to being
  charged to your credit or debit card account.

Generally, credit card fees are a fixed amount per transaction plus a percentage of the transaction amount. For example, 20 cents plus 2.4% of the transaction amount. The CTA is trying to minimize the credit card fees it pays by combining several payments into just one charge that is submitted to the credit card company. So it obtains an authorization that covers two typical rides. If the customer takes just one ride, the authorization will be too much, if the customer takes three rides, the $5 authorization will not be enough. In any case, the $5 authorization is just temporary and the actual amount is charged.

By the way, there is no combination of three rides with transfers on the CTA/Pace that comes to $2.75. The only possible fares for three rides are $2.00 (if the first ride is on Pace), $2.25 (if the first ride is a CTA bus), $2.50 (if the first ride is a CTA train), $5.25 (if the first ride is at O'Hare). Remember that the second transfer is free.

[Busjack]

From the terms and Conditions:

Additional information regarding PAYG travel and charges:

...

Anything on the turnstile saying that trigger (compared to what I said about the gas pump) or how long did it take you to research that?

Is the only way to use Ventra to read the website for a half an hour? With a browser at 300% magnification?

P.S. I'll amend the $2.75 to $2.50, but it sure isn't the $6.75 eventual charge or even $10 brick you suggest. And if CTA/Cubic/First Data can keep track of that someone hasn't rung up $5 yet, it could have kept track that the second tap should be charged only as a transfer.

As I said before, it is a deceptive practice if it is not disclosed at the point of the transaction. In addition, look back to my Circuit City comment about the issuer treating the card as stolen, which happened in my case.

[jajuan]

Instead of beating this dead horse yet again, I think it's probably safe to say you'd be better served just buying an actual Ventra card than tapping your own credit or debit card to pay your fare if you're going to be one of those who doesn't wait until the November 15th date that CTA and Pace stop selling magnetic strip cards to opt into Ventra. From what I see of what fees apply on the actual Ventra Card and how folks can use them to minimize being hit with fees, then no you don't have to read the Ventra website for half an hour to use Ventra. And while we're on the topic of growing pains, I have to ask was implementation of the Chicago Card, that some have been questioning why get rid of, so error free at the beginning of its use? Plus didn't some of you guys communicate one way or another that you didn't trust using your credit or debit cards to pay directly? Also I kind of question why anyone would want to use either directly anyway given recent concerns about crime on the CTA relating to theft of IPhones, other smartphones, and other electronic gadgets.

[Busjack]

Instead of beating this dead horse yet again, I think it's probably safe to say you'd be better served just buying an actual Ventra card than tapping your own credit or debit card to pay your fare if you're going to be one of those who doesn't wait until the November 15th date that CTA and Pace stop selling magnetic strip cards to opt into Ventra. From what I see of what fees apply on the actual Ventra Card and how folks can use them to minimize being hit with fees, then no you don't have to read the Ventra website for half an hour to use Ventra. And while we're on the topic of growing pains, I have to ask was implementation of the Chicago Card, that some have been questioning why get rid of, so error free at the beginning of its use? Plus didn't some of you guys communicate one way or another that you didn't trust using your credit or debit cards to pay directly? Also I kind of question why anyone would want to use either directly anyway given recent concerns about crime on the CTA relating to theft of IPhones, other smartphones, and other electronic gadgets.

The above may be true, but certainly guts any of the rationale of the open fare system.

I said on the CTA Tattler

It looks like CTA/Cubic/First Data is doing enough to screw people using an open fare option that that soon will be practically dead, sort of like how the debit card option will become so except for the extremely stupid or desperate.

Basically, except to get through an L turnstile at $2.25 instead of $3.00 using the Ventra Ticket (assuming that's your only ride in 2 hours), or willing to be screwed in other scenarios, the open fare option does not have any benefit. I said earlier I would not register my bank card with CTA, given who knows what they would do with that information.

[Kevin]

I still have not received my Ventra card, 12 business days after I was told it would arrive in 7-10 business days. I'd register my own card instead, but that's still "coming soon" a day after it was supposed to be available.

[Busjack]

I still have not received my Ventra card, 12 business days after I was told it would arrive in 7-10 business days. I'd register my own card instead, but that's still "coming soon" a day after it was supposed to be available.

They were stewing over that on the CTA Tattler today too. Speculation aside on whether Olaf is someone else, it seems like if they aren't going to transfer balances automatically it doesn't matter whether you wait for one or see one of sw's coworkers at Jewel, or just wait. It sounds like that in any event, you'll have to go to HQ or a neighborhood park on the given day to transfer your balance.

[Amtrak41]

< Supposedly some gas pumps have stickers that they take a set authorization first, but there doesn't seem to be any reason for Ventra to do so. >

My experience is that gas stations do a temp authorization for $1. No excuse for Ventra to be jack-asses.

Pricey hotel chains may also do a ridiculous amounts unrelated to your room charge.

< In any case, the $5 authorization is just temporary and the actual amount is charged. >

It may not make much difference, but your FICO at any given moment ingests the $5 temp authorization as counting toward your debt/credit ratio. If your score would otherwise be 751, and this takes it down to 749, and you happen to be asking for loan in that 2 day period, you are down 1 notch in FICO's gradebook.

[jtrosario]

I take back some of my concerns about Ventra based on the CTA release here:

http://www.transitchicago.com/ventrabenefits/#tc

New cards will have more robust “passback” features—up to seven people can share the same card and with Ventra, not everyone will need to start riding at the same place (you can meet up with someone on the way and pay for them with your card). You can even ask the driver or station attendant to let you pay a reduced fare for a qualifying rider travelling with you.

Former concern 1: My qualifying reduced fare is my 7-11 child. Done.

Former concern 2: Passback for 4 people in my family, including a reduced fare child. Done.

Former concern 3: More places to load value - I'm in the middle ring suburbs and NOT having to drive to a transit station to load up (the reduced fare card) will be much more convenient. Done.

Outstanding Concerns:

I still have 3 x 0.85 reduced cards to use up, they need to have vaule ADDED to use even once and we don't travel often - so the deadline of having machines available applies to these cards. The "transfer balances to Ventra" option requires a MINIMUM of $5.00 stored on the card to transfer over. WT?? What if the cards have less than $5.00 and people(in general) don't add enough to "qualify" for a transfer to a Ventra card? Do they lose the stored value forever, like the day passes supposedly will? Is CTA (and Ventra by NOT accepting such) just writing off a payable where the purchasers of these cards are stuck with lost monies by not qualifying with enough stored value or not using their passes by a newer/earlier arbitrary expiration date? (either machines being removed or day passes not being accepted)

Also, received the email about replacing the Chicago Card Plus weeks ago, still no Ventra card. I'll just be patient for now as others are doing. Maybe it shows up in the mail later. Maybe I just get one on my own or show up at one of the parks to transfer over(and I'll bring my "under $5" reduced fare cards to the park, too, to see if they are accepted as well)

P.S. For me the 3 x 0.85 doesn't matter(except in principle). For others with a low income, this could be a serious issue. The transfer over to Ventra should not be an excercise in robbing the poor and/or uninformed.

P.P.S. I didn't want multiple reduced cards for one child. CTA recently gave me 5 reduced cards to replace 2 expired reduced cards. Since then, added just enough to 2 of them(exact change please-for the machine) for a day trip to pay for one child. Still have 3 left. This is one reason why I'm actually pleased about the resolution to my former concerns.

[trigger]

Starting in January and lasting through March, as long as the cards are unexpired, you will be able to mail them to the Ventra service center and have them credited to a registered Ventra Card. The $5 limit does not apply when the mail-in process starts.

Your other choice is to buy another card (or add value to a card you already have) to bring the total up to $5 and trade them in at one of the park events. Silly, I know. I have no idea why they set this limit. At the park events, the limit is 5 cards per person (bring friends or family if you need to or go to more than one park) and the COMBINED total of the cards being exchanged must be at least $5. The individual cards do not have to be $5. Again, I have no idea why.

This was announced in the following press release:

http://www.transitchicago.com/news/default.aspx?Month=&Year=&Category=2&ArticleId=3205

I take back some of my concerns about Ventra based on the CTA release here:

http://www.transitchicago.com/ventrabenefits/#tc

Outstanding Concerns:

I still have 3 x 0.85 reduced cards to use up, they need to have vaule ADDED to use even once and we don't travel often - so the deadline of having machines available applies to these cards. The "transfer balances to Ventra" option requires a MINIMUM of $5.00 stored on the card to transfer over. WT?? What if the cards have less than $5.00 and people(in general) don't add enough to "qualify" for a transfer to a Ventra card? Do they lose the stored value forever, like the day passes supposedly will? Is CTA (and Ventra by NOT accepting such) just writing off a payable where the purchasers of these cards are stuck with lost monies by not qualifying with enough stored value or not using their passes by a newer/earlier arbitrary expiration date? (either machines being removed or day passes not being accepted)

[Kevin]

I said earlier I would not register my bank card with CTA, given who knows what they would do with that information.

From my understanding, registering your contactless bankcard is not required to avoid PAYG fares. You just need to add a pass or transit value at a vending machine. A registered bankcard with no associated pass or transit value is still subject to PAYG fares.

I used my unregistered bankcard (with no pass or value added) to pay for a couple of rides this morning since I didn't need a transfer. It worked fine, and my card was authorized for $5 on the first tap. No additional authorization was added for the second tap.

I'm dying to know the reason for the lack of transfers under PAYG. I can't think of a technical reason for this limitation, since they already keep track of your taps throughout the day before making the final charge. This is the extreme opposite of London's Oyster card, where daily fares are always capped at the price of a day pass.

[jtrosario]

...Your other choice is to buy another card (or add value to a card you already have) to bring the total up to $5 and trade them in at one of the park events. Silly, I know. I have no idea why they set this limit. At the park events, the limit is 5 cards per person (bring friends or family if you need to or go to more than one park) and the COMBINED total of the cards being exchanged must be at least $5. The individual cards do not have to be $5. Again, I have no idea why.

This was announced in the following press release:

http://www.transitchicago.com/news/default.aspx?Month=&Year=&Category=2&ArticleId=3205

Thanks for the link, the 3 x $0.85 cards that I have left that I received from CTA HQ on Lake St (at the beginning of August 2013/and no they are NOT the current $1 cards) expire October 1 2013.

So it looks like I'll need to go to a park event BEFORE October. I'll first drive to a transit station, add $2.45 to one of the three cards and then bring my $0.85 + $0.85 + $3.30 cards to the event and have the $5.00 total transferred onto a Ventra card.

If I receive my (Chicago Card replacement)Ventra card in the mail, I might bring it over with me (before transferring over my Chicago Card Plus funds online) to see if they can use that as the destination Ventra card. Then I'll transfer the Chicago Card Plus funds over to that same Ventra card. Otherwise, I'll get the Ventra card at the park and try to transfer the Chicago Card Plus over to that one. Or if just plain not possible, I'll register the $5 Ventra card from the park in my wife's name, use it down to $0.00 first, and register the Ventra card replacement of my Chicago Card Plus in my name and start using it after the first Ventra card's balance is brought down to $0.00.

[soapbox on-again] I really feel as though the poor and/or uninformed are going to get robbed by this, even if it's for what I think is a small amount(per person-NOT total monies involved). What happens to those whose cards which expire after the vending machines are removed but before January 1st? This really needs to be reconsidered and acceptance of ALL magnetic cards which expire after November 15, 2013 SHOULD be accepted during the January to March time period. Also, who can possibly bring a card value down to exactly zero? These are monies that will be essentially STOLEN from those who don't use up their entire card value between now and December 15, with NO RECOURSE to add value to create a fare amount to HAVE THE ABILITY to bring their cards down to zero during that November 15th to December 15th time frame. Also those with day passes that expire after December 15th and whom didn't plan on using them before the day pass expiration dates(someone on this board mentioned 2014 expiration dates) are already being told they have NO RECOURSE except to "use it or lose it", even though when they were sold, the agreement was a 1 year expiration of those cards. [soapbox off]

[Amtrak41]

If one has a credit card in their pocket with the chip, such as from Chase, and was not registered to be a Ventra card, if it were to brush against a Ventra reader, would it deduct the fare from it anyway ?

[Busjack]

If one has a credit card in their pocket with the chip, such as from Chase, and was not registered to be a Ventra card, if it were to brush against a Ventra reader, would it deduct the fare from it anyway ?

It sounds like it would take more than a brush, but a direct tap on the reader, so in the pocket probably won't set it off.

[Amtrak41]

But in case it did, would Ventra ignore it since the owner did not make Ventra aware or register that particular bank card with them ?

[trigger]

But in case it did, would Ventra ignore it since the owner did not make Ventra aware or register that particular bank card with them ?

The card readers are mounted so it is really unlikely that your pants pocket would ever touch one.

But I understand that is not your real concern. The answer is that if you somehow accidentally touched an unregistered compatible bankcard to the card reader, yes it would charge you for a fare the same way if you accidentally touched your bankcard to one of those contactless card readers at Walgreens it would charge the card for your drugs. The system is intended to allow anyone with one of these cards to pay their fare without making any prior arrangements.

If you want to block your card from being used, I suggest registering the card with Ventra and then reporting it as stolen to Ventra customer service (but NOT to your bank!). Ventra will then place the card on its blocked card list.

[Amtrak41]

There are You-tubes about how one can drill out a quarter inch hole and the chip from you credit card. I can see where mine is in the card, but is too close to the magnetic strip for me to try it.

[trigger]

There are You-tubes about how one can drill out a quarter inch hole and the chip from you credit card. I can see where mine is in the card, but is too close to the magnetic strip for me to try it.

Or you can just buy an RFID protector sleeve (they are often sold really cheap on deal-of-the-day type of web sites) or if you really want to splurge buy an RFID blocking wallet.

[jajuan]

From my understanding, registering your contactless bankcard is not required to avoid PAYG fares. You just need to add a pass or transit value at a vending machine. A registered bankcard with no associated pass or transit value is still subject to PAYG fares.

I used my unregistered bankcard (with no pass or value added) to pay for a couple of rides this morning since I didn't need a transfer. It worked fine, and my card was authorized for $5 on the first tap. No additional authorization was added for the second tap.

I'm dying to know the reason for the lack of transfers under PAYG. I can't think of a technical reason for this limitation, since they already keep track of your taps throughout the day before making the final charge. This is the extreme opposite of London's Oyster card, where daily fares are always capped at the price of a day pass.

On your last point, unfortunately good ole American style capitalism when not constrained by consumer protections is coming into play on the PAYG feature.

[Busjack]

On your last point, unfortunately good ole American style capitalism when not constrained by consumer protections is coming into play on the PAYG feature.

Which is what I said earlier, combined with Sam's comment about lying about fare increases. I wonder if people are going to keep relying on Emanuel's statement "I meant the base fare" when he raised everything else, and still has a deficit. And I mean "he."

[Busjack]

From my understanding, registering your contactless bankcard is not required to avoid PAYG fares. You just need to add a pass or transit value at a vending machine. A registered bankcard with no associated pass or transit value is still subject to PAYG fares.

...

Which was my point with regard to not being willing to register my debit card, since the alternatives according to trigger were either putting a transit account on that card or paying $2.25 a swipe.

Now, since using a credit card at the old machines was not dependent on RFID technology, are you saying that the Ventra vending machines aren't taking the old fashioned mag stripe credit cards? Or does one just swipe one of those and pay the $5 deposit?

P.S. I'm agreeing with the FoxChicago report at 8:30 that Ventra certainly is not going over well with the riders.