Blue Line Collision

[jajuan]

Yes, it is a good question. Any inbound train theoretically could not enter the same track as the runaway without the runaway hitting it in the yard. Another interesting story I heard about the train is that it slowly was gaining momentum. An interesting question would be could the train have picked up enough speed to be a real threat.Also whether a train has the capability without a track brake applied to run away? If you take the brake off an automobile it will move on it's own. But can a train do that also without a brake applied? This would explain why it could climb hills.

Well the track leaving Forest Park is on a downward incline in the inbound direction which is the direction this runaway train was going, so would it not gain momentum to reach Harlem from that? The bigger question for me is how it managed to get past the Forest Park platform devoid of passengers and no one saw it or found that to be odd. Even if it were a case of the train had to be run express from the Forest Park station, you would still get some passengers due to the high probability that a passenger boarding there is going to disembark at a station within the city limits anyway. Not only that we're talking about a four car train during rush hour, something else that should have struck personnel at the terminal and yard as totally odd for that line and at least had them question what was going on.

[mkohut]

Well the track leaving Forest Park is on a downward incline in the inbound direction which the direction this runaway train was going, so would it not gain momentum to reach Harlem from that. The bigger question for me is how it managed to get past the Forest Park platform devoid of passengers and no one saw it or found that to be odd. Even if it were a case of the train had to be run express from the Forest Park station, you would still get some passengers due to the high probability that a passenger boarding there is going to disembark at a station within the city limits anyway. Not only that we're talking about a four car train during rush hour, something else that should have struck personnel at the terminal and yard as totally odd for that line and at least had them question what was going on.

There is the mystery of how it had the speed of 20 to 25.I don't want to spectralate.But,if the speed limit is 20 on the turn.My question is would the train brake system slow it down to that speed or a complete stop if it was going to fast.

[BusHunter]

Well the supervisor at forest pk reportedly jumped down on the tracks and ran after the runaway. Why? Did he think he could catch it? It must not have been going that fast. Then there is an incline going towards harlem so the train would have to climb that, but it's possible it's downward momentum carried it up that incline. But the train would basically have to drive itself out of the yard. But maybe that's possible. I know i've been on trains at a station with the doors open and the train will move slightly

Of course it's caught and it stops. Well what happens in a similar scenario with noone to catch it. Maybe this I don't know. Another good question would be if they could quickly remove power would that put the train in emergency stopping it. If so maybe they need to give a supervisor that responsibility instead of a power controller.

[Busjack]

Yes, it is a good question. Any inbound train theoretically could not enter the same track as the runaway without the runaway hitting it in the yard. Another interesting story I heard about the train is that it slowly was gaining momentum. An interesting question would be could the train have picked up enough speed to be a real threat.Also whether a train has the capability without a track brake applied to run away? If you take the brake off an automobile it will move on it's own. But can a train do that also without a brake applied? This would explain why it could climb hills.

There are the stories about runaway trains; more recently one about a runaway train that slammed into a Quebec town, resulting in an oil tanker car bursting into fire, killing 38. CNN story, for example. That was tentatively blamed on the crew not properly setting the brake.

The only way it could climb a hill would be if it had enough momentum to get over the top. Consider a roller coaster, which has to be propelled over the first hill, but then has enough momentum to finish the ride.

.. The bigger question for me is how it managed to get past the Forest Park platform devoid of passengers and no one saw it or found that to be odd. ....

All the news reports were that the supervisor at Forest Park saw it go by. The Tribune one cited earlier said "A CTA supervisor at the Forest Park station and a motorman aboard a train said they saw no one on the train leaving the yard, said Kelly, Local 308 president of the Amalgamated Transit Union."

Anyway, the latest news is that CTA is not saying anything pending the NTSB investigation, and operating staff is all engaged in interviews by the NTSB. So, you won't be hearing anything for a while. ABC7 news video.

[sw4400]

Well the supervisor at forest pk reportedly jumped down on the tracks and ran after the runaway. Why? Did he think he could catch it? It must not have been going that fast. Then there is an incline going towards harlem so the train would have to climb that, but it's possible it's downward momentum carried it up that incline. But the train would basically have to drive itself out of the yard. But maybe that's possible. I know i've been on trains at a station with the doors open and the train will move slightly

Of course it's caught and it stops. Well what happens in a similar scenario with noone to catch it. Maybe this I don't know. Another good question would be if they could quickly remove power would that put the train in emergency stopping it. If so maybe they need to give a supervisor that responsibility instead of a power controller.

What about an emergency, non-notification power cutoff for that strip of tracks, both O-Hare and Forest Park-bound sides. It would've inconvenienced passengers on running trains for a short time but more likely then not would've stopped the runaway since it's power source is gone. If I remember correctly, the CTA could get power turned off in as quickly as a minute or less once CTA Control is notified of the situation. The only thing is Rail Operators on Blue Line trains in the "Blackout" area would've been calling control and telling them the power just cut off on their line.

[Busjack]

What about an emergency, non-notification power cutoff for that strip of tracks, both O-Hare and Forest Park-bound sides. It would've inconvenienced passengers on running trains for a short time but more likely then not would've stopped the runaway since it's power source is gone. If I remember correctly, the CTA could get power turned off in as quickly as a minute or less once CTA Control is notified of the situation. The only thing is Rail Operators on Blue Line trains in the "Blackout" area would've been calling control and telling them the power just cut off on their line.

The ability to cut off power reveals what I said was the fallacy in the plot of The Taking of Pelham 123.

However, it appears that BusHunter is now positing the theory that the train had enough momentum on its own, in which case cutting the power or the dead man wouldn't have made any difference.

[BusHunter]

Yes, true but maybe if the power was cut the train would not have got passed forest pk. Once it goes down the incline under the railroad it's momentum can carry it on to harlem. I don't know if removing the power would turn on what little brake power it had but it would be worth the gamble if supervisors had a kill switch somewhere. This kind of reminds me of my youtube insufficient warning. By the time you go through channels the problem will have already been dealt with by a positive or negative outcome.

[Busjack]

Sun-Times seems to have more this morning. The headline that the Forest Park mayor says it was a mechanical malfunction is a bit misleading, as his conclusion was that based on the videos, no one was on the train and no one got into the train, so there isn't a criminal case, although they don't know if they got video of everything.

Kelly also went into it more, and the new bit of information, which contradicts what I thought above, is that he says the interlocking track trip should have stopped the train if it was going through the interlocking backward, and not just if a switching move was not set up. It looks like they are still going under the assumption that the car was powered.

[mkohut]

Sun-Times seems to have more this morning. The headline that the Forest Park mayor says it was a mechanical malfunction is a bit misleading, as his conclusion was that based on the videos, no one was on the train and no one got into the train, so there isn't a criminal case, although they don't know if they got video of everything.

Kelly also went into it more, and the new bit of information, which contradicts what I thought above, is that he says the interlocking track trip should have stopped the train if it was going through the interlocking backward, and not just if a switching move was not set up. It looks like they are still going under the assumption that the car was powered.

While I'm not a fan of Emanuel or Claypool at lease they know when not to talk.Not like the Mayor of Forest Park.

[Busjack]

While I'm not a fan of Emanuel or Claypool at lease they know when not to talk.Not like the Mayor of Forest Park.

I said that the headline was misleading, in that the proper subject was whether there would be criminal charges, which is a matter within the initial jurisdiction of the Forest Park police department. The text of the article put it in that context.

If there were evidence that someone broke into the train, then the police should be on the case, but the mayor indicated that there was not any evidence.

[BusHunter]

I put up a youtube video on my channel about this incident. (news footage) Included at the end of the video is pictures of #3177 being hauled away on a CTA flatbed truck. I don't know if it's going to Skokie, an undisclosed location or the NTSB. I also put up a passby video I took yesterday while the cars were still at Harlem/Blue line. i made a few stills from that footage here they are:

[Busjack]

I put up a youtube video on my channel about this incident. (news footage) Included at the end of the video is pictures of #3177 being hauled away on a CTA flatbed truck. I don't know if it's going to Skokie, an undisclosed location or the NTSB. I also put up a passby video I took yesterday while the cars were still at Harlem/Blue line. i made a few stills from that footage here they are:

3177 platform.png3171 platform.png

I guess what shouldn't have been surprising is that it was going on a flatbed truck; they weren't going to push it a mile back up the track.

[Amtrak41]

If the 5000's were to replace about half of the 2600's, these victims would not have been a apart of it, so maybe they'll retain 2890+ rather than 2900+ until the 7000's. I presume they'll be a break in time between the two orders.

[BusHunter]

I guess what shouldn't have been surprising is that it was going on a flatbed truck; they weren't going to push it a mile back up the track.

You know they could've actually towed it to forest pk but it was too damaged, they have run 3 cars trains as a special equipment move in the last year. They were sawing off the roof in that video. I wonder when was the last time a train car had to be lifted off the tracks due to excessive damage and put on a flatbed

[BusHunter]

Btw, they took 3177 to skokie shops

[Busjack]

If the 5000's were to replace about half of the 2600's, these victims would not have been a apart of it, so maybe they'll retain 2890+ rather than 2900+ until the 7000's. I presume they'll be a break in time between the two orders.

The stuff in the CTA papers were that they were going to rehab 100 2600s, and that 400 of the 7000s were to replace the last of the 2600s. In that these were near the last, apparently the 100 or 400 will move that much down the fleet numbers, not that anything has ever been retired in straight fleet number order in recent history. But it seems like you were headed in the right direction.

You know they could've actually towed it to forest pk but it was too damaged, they have run 3 cars trains as a special equipment move in the last year. They were sawing off the roof in that video. I wonder when was the last time a train car had to be lifted off the tracks due to excessive damage and put on a flatbed

Channel 7 had video of the crane lifting the car off the tracks, but that doesn't seem to be saved to their website.

I don't know about all the wrecks, but in the case of the 1977 one at Lake and Wabash, they obviously had to put the cars on flatbeds or something like that, since some cars were on the street or hanging from the structure,and my impression was that the trucks were ripped off.

[BusHunter]

My youtube video has the cbs coverage of them lifting the car up with cables, it's trucks just hanging underneath the train. I'm assuming that's why they had the chainsaw out there. They wouldn't want a serrated edge cutting on the cables.

I guess for the last car lift onto a flatbed, we would have to go back to 1984, when 6647-48 was crushed on the kennedy/montrose incident. (Pictures on ebay) I know the addison 1976 incident did. The 6000 involved had the worst damage I've ever seen.

Actually I'm kind of surprised 3177 had so much damage with only a 20mph impact. The train accident looked faster than that. Maybe the ntsb when they make out the final report will say how fast it was going. With the addison 1976 accident two to three times as bad that collision had to be 40mph or greater. Obviously the follower then was doing skip stop service. If you can imagine that speed going through addison blue line.

[sw4400]

I'm surprised you forgot 1979 and the crash at the Cicero crossing for a westbound Douglas-Milwaukee "B" train that hit a steel truck and derailed. Car #2342. While it took place before the 1984 derailment you mention happened at Montrose on the Kennedy Blue Line, it still required a flatbed transport as it was unable to run on the rails.

[Amtrak41]

After several rear-enders on the NYCT, culminating with a particularly nasty, fatal wreck on the Williamsburg Bridge, the system was slowed down with governors for trains to have a max speed of under 40MPH, unless drifting downhill, which gets them to 45 MPH.

Could that now happen on CTA, would NTSB recommend it, even though a train operator speeding had nothing to do with this incident ?

[chgofan78]

My youtube video has the cbs coverage of them lifting the car up with cables, it's trucks just hanging underneath the train. I'm assuming that's why they had the chainsaw out there. They wouldn't want a serrated edge cutting on the cables.

I guess for the last car lift onto a flatbed, we would have to go back to 1984, when 6647-48 was crushed on the kennedy/montrose incident. (Pictures on ebay) I know the addison 1976 incident did. The 6000 involved had the worst damage I've ever seen.

Actually I'm kind of surprised 3177 had so much damage with only a 20mph impact. The train accident looked faster than that. Maybe the ntsb when they make out the final report will say how fast it was going. With the addison 1976 accident two to three times as bad that collision had to be 40mph or greater. Obviously the follower then was doing skip stop service. If you can imagine that speed going through addison blue line.

I was thinking the same thing. It reminds me of the incident in the new State Street Subway extension on February 21st, 1993- the first day of the new routing for the Red Line. The moving train was probably travelling 25 to 45 m.p.h. before it slammed into the stalled train. However, the only difference in that case is the operator probably applied the brakes as he abruptly noticed the standing train in front of them which minimized impact. And, as a result, the only damage was a small dent on the coupler of car 2455 of the standing train.

[Busjack]

After several rear-enders on the NYCT, culminating with a particularly nasty, fatal wreck on the Williamsburg Bridge, the system was slowed down with governors for trains to have a max speed of under 40MPH, unless drifting downhill, which gets them to 45 MPH.

Could that now happen on CTA, would NTSB recommend it, even though a train operator speeding had nothing to do with this incident ?

Since that isn't indicated as a cause, probably not. Also, the CTA system has fixed signal points at 15, 35, and 55 mph, so lowering 55 to 45 would require at least reprogramming the entire system.

[Busjack]

Maybe related to Amtrak41's suggestion is Hilkevitch's Tribune article that supposedly the NTSB is going to make emergency recommendations, but not saying what they would be.

Also, those who pointed out that these were among the last of the 2600s will be sure to find the mathematical inconsistency in the article.

[Amtrak41]

Train getting past 2 trip hammers reminds me of the fatal wreck we had on the Queen IND around 1970. The train was being driven from the 3rd car. The brakes were cut out in the first married pair. It passed through a red light and crossovers, but the trip-hammer did not take effect until the 3rd car, and the 1st car was about to T-bone a train on the express track.

[Busjack]

Train getting past 2 trip hammers reminds me of the fatal wreck we had on the Queen IND around 1970. The train was being driven from the 3rd car. The brakes were cut out in the first married pair. It passed through a red light and crossovers, but the trip-hammer did not take effect until the 3rd car, and the 1st car was about to T-bone a train on the express track.

There certainly seems to be similarities, but I guess we have to wait for the NTSB to report. CTA practice is not to push cars, since the reverser key has to be in the controller of the car that is moving forward (but I guess your interpretation is that car 3 was moving forward). Evidently, nothing tripped the 4 CTA cars, which traveled for about a mile.

BTW.... [i'm not going to say]

[BusHunter]

There certainly seems to be similarities, but I guess we have to wait for the NTSB to report. CTA practice is not to push cars, since the reverser key has to be in the controller of the car that is moving forward (but I guess your interpretation is that car 3 was moving forward). Evidently, nothing tripped the 4 CTA cars, which traveled for about a mile. BTW.... [i'm not going to say]

Hmm... so if the brakes are cut out the train can't be tripped.