CTA Blue Line Crash at O'Hare

[Busjack]

...

I think People Of The CTA should remove this disgusting and degrading photo and ban that user immediately!

...

Maybe that's a takeoff on several headlines (CTA Tattler, Streetsblog) that riding transit is safer than driving. Also, I thought you were complaining about some sexist remark about the female motorperson.

But., then again, instead of bringing attention to it here, you could have joined Facebook and complained there, if it really bothered you. My opinion is that Facebook is not a community with which I want to deal or be associated.

[Busjack]

It's baaaaack!

...

Some video was just on the WGN news, but I missed it.

[joechicago]

According to the Sun-Times, one of the lawyers is questioning the design of the station.

Ridiculous considering the station has been open nearly 30 years without incident.

[joechicago]

The NTSB also posted a few close-up photos to their twitter:

[Guest]

This mornings news conference reveals something interesting and chilling in the interview with the motorman. It turns out she has a history of falling asleep at the controls. Tuesdays incident isn't the first time she fell asleep operating a train. It happened before with this same operator in February, she overran a stop. Turns out she has a history of not being able to wake up on time for work! Real class act!!!

[Busjack]

This mornings news conference reveals something interesting and chilling in the interview with the motorman. It turns out she has a history of falling asleep at the controls. Tuesdays incident isn't the first time she fell asleep operating a train. It happened before with this same operator in February, she overran a stop. Turns out she has a history of not being able to wake up on time for work! Real class act!!!

That, though gets down to the question how CTA could test thousands of crew members a day, although if she had that past history,that should have set off a red flag.

According to the Sun-Times, one of the lawyers is questioning the design of the station.

Ridiculous considering the station has been open nearly 30 years without incident.

Not necessarily. The first thing that is questionable was pointed out in the Tribune graphic to which sw linked, that the center track butts in a direct line with the escalator, while the other two tracks extend around it.

The other thing that is being bantered around, based on the second NTSB photo you embedded above, is that since the undercarriage is missing, the bumping post ripped off the front bumper (anticlimber), thus sending the car into the air.

The issue isn't whether nothing has happened there before, but whether whoever designed the station should have foreseen that the bumping post would not stop the car, and send it into escalator.

There are plenty of CTA stations that are 120 years old, but I don't think anyone is arguing that they meet current standards, even if nothing has yet happened at some of them.

One must also consider that this is the only stub terminal in a subway, although I suppose the consequences would be worse if a train failed to stop at Cottage-63.

To summarize, I don't have the answer to the question posed by those lawyers,but the question is not trivial.

[Busjack]

Tribune embedded version of the YouTube video and some discussion about its possible source.

[sw4400]

• I mentioned twice above why the suits were filed now--to get a court order to preserve the evidence. It isn't going to do much good as far as the plantiffs' cases are concerned if the cars are sitting in little pieces at some scrap yard. Even Skokie Shops doesn't preserve the scene, pending investigation.
• Not to get into your business, but since you are a paramedic, does CFD transport people to Lutheran General Hospital without some obvious need for the patient to be there?

I'll also add that since CTA, as a common carrier, has a high duty of care,winning the suits shouldn't be too hard, but the plaintiffs still need evidence. I, at first, also thought this was a bit hasty,but they have to do what they have to do.

They could preserve the cars for evidence yes, but not as a whole. The CTA has already stated that they'll have to cut the car up in order to remove it from the station. And court cases like this could last months, perhaps a year or more before a judgment is rendered(look how long CTA v. NABI went before a judgment)... the O-Hare stop needs to be operational ASAP.

[Guest]

These lawyers trying to steer blame away from the source in order to feed on the lawsuits by the passengers. Now Im not saying these passengers are not feeling the injuries, but it seems funny, they say theyre hurt, they cant move, theyre in a lot of pain, their experiencing severe back injuries but in their tv interviews they sure don't seem as if theyre in a lot of pain!!! They were released from the hospitals by 8am that morning! Only the motorman was kept the longest off all the injured passengers They sure didn't waste anytime contacting attorneys to file their lawsuits considering how much pain and "emotional" distress theyre supposedly in!!! They should be giving themselves time to heal if theyre really in that much pain!

[sw4400]

These lawyers trying to steer blame away from the source in order to feed on the lawsuits by the passengers. Now Im not saying these passengers are not feeling the injuries, but it seems funny, they say theyre hurt, they cant move, theyre in a lot of pain, their experiencing severe back injuries but in their tv interviews they sure don't seem as if theyre in a lot of pain!!! They were released from the hospitals by 8am that morning! Only the motorman was kept the longest off all the injured passengers They sure didn't waste anytime contacting attorneys to file their lawsuits considering how much pain and "emotional" distress theyre supposedly in!!! They should be giving themselves time to heal if theyre really in that much pain!

I don't want to be biased like the People Of The CTA picture poster with his sexist photo of the crash saying CTA is safer than being in a car with a woman driver, but given the time of the crash, you have to wonder how many of the impending lawsuits that will be filed come from people legitimately hurt. What I'm driving at is the accident occurred in the wee hours of the morning(between 2a-3a) and the Blue and Red Lines are usually rolling sleeping quarters for homeless who are drunk or high and want to sleep it off(not all, but most). This type of incident is a way to keep them on their liquor and drug fix for a long time. IMO, I know they must be included in the lawsuit, but to be helpful to them, if they win a verdict, I would as a judge require paperwork from a Hospital or Clinic for the total charges incurred and a check will be made and sent out to the establishments treating them for their injuries, and not them directly. I might get a lot of flak for this post, in particularly these comments, but if you see a homeless person begging for food, you buy them something only to have them say "I don't want it, I want the money!", doesn't that tell you something right there? I've seen homeless that spent the day begging come through a register with one bottle of vodka totaling near $10, paying with $4 in bills and the rest miscellaneous change. That money could've bought a meal for him/her!

Best wishes, CTA. Hopefully any homeless in the lawsuit will get a judgment rendered directly to the medical providers providing medical help to any injured during the crash rather than giving them a check right to their hands. The working class people injured can get a check.... I know it's biased, but at least it'll go towards what it needs to go towards... the medical charges incurred.

[Busjack]

These lawyers trying to steer blame away from the source in order to feed on the lawsuits by the passengers. Now Im not saying these passengers are not feeling the injuries, but it seems funny, they say theyre hurt, they cant move, theyre in a lot of pain, their experiencing severe back injuries but in their tv interviews they sure don't seem as if theyre in a lot of pain!!! They were released from the hospitals by 8am that morning! Only the motorman was kept the longest off all the injured passengers They sure didn't waste anytime contacting attorneys to file their lawsuits considering how much pain and "emotional" distress theyre supposedly in!!! They should be giving themselves time to heal if theyre really in that much pain!

So, what do you want them to do; wait until their injuries are completely healed, the wreckage is no longer available for inspection, and the statute of limitations has run?

Did you even read my post? If these people weren't injured, why did CFD transport them to the hospital?

I don't want to be biased like the People Of The CTA picture poster with his sexist photo of the crash saying CTA is safer than being in a car with a woman driver, but given the time of the crash, you have to wonder how many of the impending lawsuits that will be filed come from people legitimately hurt. ..

Yes you are as biased at least as the yahoos who posted Facebook comments in the Tribune.

The Tribune and Sun-Times said where the plaintiffs mentioned in those articles were on the train. Unlike some south side L stories, there wasn't any claim that they climbed the structure. Also, I bet, with all the security cameras in the train cars, it is not going to be difficult for the lawyers to prove where their clients were.

[Busjack]

They could preserve the cars for evidence yes, but not as a whole. The CTA has already stated that they'll have to cut the car up in order to remove it from the station. And court cases like this could last months, perhaps a year or more before a judgment is rendered(look how long CTA v. NABI went before a judgment)... the O-Hare stop needs to be operational ASAP.

It is the same thing as when the railroad overpass collapsed in Northbrook, Glenview or both, and whoever was digging the coal pile discovered a buried car with two dead people in it.

Their heirs called Bob Clifford, who immediately filed suit, got an order allowing inspection of the site, and sent an inspector. That was completed in a couple of days, and since then the coal pile has been removed and the bridge replaced.

Even the NABI buses were quickly inspected, and then left there to rot.

I think Clifford has more experience in this than what has been demonstrated by the prior couple of posts.

[sw4400]

Yes you are as biased at least as the yahoos who posted Facebook comments in the Tribune.

The Tribune and Sun-Times said where the plaintiffs mentioned in those articles were on the train. Unlike some south side L stories, there wasn't any claim that they climbed the structure. Also, I bet, with all the security cameras in the train cars, it is not going to be difficult for the lawyers to prove where their clients were.

I was actually getting at those homeless on the train at the time of the crash, not any who seen it and thought "A crash!!! I can get free money!!!" and jumped on board or near enough to act injured. The Blue and Red Line have a lot of homeless people ride/sleep on board during the overnight hours.

Even though they have little to no money, they can request a Public Defender who will file a lawsuit against the CTA at no charge to them for negligence and injuries that they incurred. But when they win their lawsuits and get however many thousands or millions of dollars they are awarded, their medical expenses will never get paid. They'll use the money to stock up on liquor and feed their drug habit.

Like I said, this is sounding biased, I'm trying hard not to make it so, but I would like to see their medical bills paid if they are legitimately hurt in the crash by actually being on the train at the time(and I believe there were some on there, it happened between 2a-3a), not their thirst for liquor quenched and their dealers pockets thickened.

[Busjack]

I was actually getting at those homeless on the train at the time of the crash, not any who seen it and thought "A crash!!! I can get free money!!!" and jumped on board or near enough to act injured. The Blue and Red Line have a lot of homeless people ride/sleep on board during the overnight hours.

Even though they have little to no money, they can request a Public Defender who will file a lawsuit against the CTA at no charge to them for negligence and injuries that they incurred. ...

Last first, public defenders are only in criminal court. Personal injury lawyers work on contingency and only get paid if they win, and then out of the settlement or judgment. Don't you even see the commercials on TV (especially on the noon news and digital subchannels)?

Even if there were homeless on the train, they should be easily identifiable on security video, still suffered injuries, and undoubtedly won't have much of a claim for lost wages and earning capacity. If there were only 30 some persons on the train, the number of people to whom CTA is liable is certainly limited.

[BusHunter]

Don't worry SW4400, the lawyers will get half the payout. Usually when something bad happens to you that's big news like this, lawyers will be contacting you, because it's an easy case to try. It's like when you win the lottery, you suddenly have 100's of new friends.

Any judgment will go to the plaintiff and their attorneys. CTA is already on the hook for the medical. I believe a CTA rep has to come to the hospital to sign papers. I've heard of them reporting to hospitals before on the radio. Any litigation will probably be met with a settlement proposal. It reminds me of that movie from the 60's with Walter Matthau, The Fortune Cookie.

[Busjack]

Don't worry SW4400, the lawyers will get half the payout. Usually when something bad happens to you that's big news like this, lawyers will be contacting you, because it's an easy case to try. It's like when you win the lottery, you suddenly have 100's of new friends.

Any judgment will go to the plaintiff and their attorneys. CTA is already on the hook for the medical. I believe a CTA rep has to come to the hospital to sign papers. I've heard of them reporting to hospitals before on the radio. Any litigation will probably be met with a settlement proposal. It reminds me of that movie from the 60's with Walter Matthau, The Fortune Cookie.

33%.

I'm not so sure that CTA has agreed to pay the medical, and HIPPA would prevent you from finding out.

But, yes this probably will settle, and if it settles without going to trial, the contingency usually is much less than 33%.

In any event, I enjoy the commercial "call 312 6 million," although the rest seem like sleaze to me.

[jajuan]

Hot off the presses a video has just been leaked to youtube showing video of the crash at O'Hare

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elMXt00xyIU

That old guy is not just lucky, but blessed if he holds any form of spiritual and religious beliefs. If he had been coming up that escalator a couple of minutes later...........

Just watching this video angers me of what the motorman was doing at that very moment! They need to fire her! She could have killed that man stepping off the escalator or passengers on the train! An accident as serious as this is unforgivable!

How about you let them finish their investigation before you go flying off the handle. Yes this is a very serious accident but we don't know for sure what was going on behind those controls and whether she alone is at fault until the WHOLE investigation is done.

This mornings news conference reveals something interesting and chilling in the interview with the motorman. It turns out she has a history of falling asleep at the controls. Tuesdays incident isn't the first time she fell asleep operating a train. It happened before with this same operator in February, she overran a stop. Turns out she has a history of not being able to wake up on time for work! Real class act!!!

And this is why I was saying to garmon yesterday that I don't like all this rushing out and leaking small tidbits of information without getting ALL of the facts and evidence at hand and piecing all of it together. All of the focus gets shifted on her while the other issues posed that may have also had a play in this gets ignored. She may very well lose her job for her part in this. but what about those other issues that potentially need to be fixed and corrected? If she was overworking, why did the CTA allow that to take place? If she has a history of falling asleep behind the controls, again why did CTA allow her to stay on the job and ignore an obvious red flag as Busjack posed above? If there is indeed one or more design flaws in how the station is put together and laid out, how are they going to correct that issue? If there is a design flaw in the infrastructure that was supposed to stop the train, again what's going to be done to fix that issue? As I've been saying these past couple of days, no matter how angry some may be at the operator, she still is only one piece of the puzzle of how the train barreled beyond that bumper and went flying into the escalator. There are other factors beyond her and the potential loss of her job that also have to be acknowledged, addressed and corrected.

[BusHunter]

Notice how CTA rushed out and made her sign papers of her fatigue. I don't know if I would have done that without an attorney present. That alone will no doubt open her up to a lawsuit. She may end up looking for Peter Francis Geraci now. But like Jajuan says she is only a part of this. The lawyers want the city and the CTA on the tab for this. They are not going to get much from her. In a way the CTA is lucky no one died, 32 people is a lot less than say the Blue line subway debacle which was 100's of people.

As far as the medical, I think CTA has insurance that pays for accidents involving patrons. So really it might be the insurance that pays, but I think it goes that the patrons get the bill now and they make a claim with the CTA or at least that's how it was described to me, from a formerly injured party, but anyone due for a claim cannot talk to the media.

[4CottageGrove95th]

I've been following the comments on this board since this happened. You all have minced it, sliced it - done everything but dice it - with respect to cause, blame and legal ramifications, long and short term, especially as it pertains to CTA and it's safety policies. And this will probably continue for weeks, if not months. So, there is nothing I could contribute that hasn't been said already. But I will say, hope and pray that this same scenario never happens on ANY section of elevated structure, and especially the 59th Street curve on the Englewood leg of the Green Line. As many times as I have ridden that leg, I have always imagined what a disaster it would be if a train entered that curve at excessive speed the way the Blue Line train entered the O'hare terminal, be it because of mechanical failure, operator inattentiveness or whatever. This same phobia exist today everytime a watch a train enter that curve. Far-fetched???? Given what happened at Ohare, I don't think so.

[Busjack]

Notice how CTA rushed out and made her sign papers of her fatigue. I don't know if I would have done that without an attorney present. That alone will no doubt open her up to a lawsuit. She may end up looking for Peter Francis Geraci now. But like Jajuan says she is only a part of this. The lawyers want the city and the CTA on the tab for this. They are not going to get much from her. In a way the CTA is lucky no one died, 32 people is a lot less than say the Blue line subway debacle which was 100's of people.

As far as the medical, I think CTA has insurance that pays for accidents involving patrons. So really it might be the insurance that pays, but I think it goes that the patrons get the bill now and they make a claim with the CTA or at least that's how it was described to me, from a formerly injured party, but anyone due for a claim cannot talk to the media.

Again more confused stuff here. If you mean the operator, she is only entitled to workers' compensation. Any papers CTA made her sign would have to be with regards to terminating her. The only recourse would be to the grievance procedure, but as I noted yesterday, Kelly has already poisoned that well.

Unless she is a Hispanic with a workers' compensation claim, Peter Francis Geraci only handles bankruptcy.

As far as insurance, CTA is liable whether it has a carrier, or more likely, is self insured. IIRC, CTA is self insured up to an excess amount covered by a carrier.

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

Looking at the video had me thinking about this crash on video in Buenos Aires, except that the train cars in the video were propelled sideways instead of upwards. The bus in the video was the makeshift "ramp" in this case.

Hopefully the cleanup will be somewhat easy, and trains will run to O'Hare once more.

[Busjack]

.... Far-fetched???? Given what happened at Ohare, I don't think so.

Apparently you are too young for several accidents around the Indiana curve, and, of course, the Lake-Dan Ryan train hitting the Ravenswood train and falling off the structure at the Wabash & Lake curve in 1977. Chicago-l.org, while recalling these, also mentions something similar at the Harrison curve, which since has been eased. IIRC, someone posted a picture of a derailing train taking out a building on the Englewood branch.

[4CottageGrove95th]

Apparently you are too young for several accidents around the Indiana curve, and, of course, the Lake-Dan Ryan train hitting the Ravenswood train and falling off the structure at the Wabash & Lake curve in 1977. Chicago-l.org, while recalling these, also mentions something similar at the Harrison curve, which since has been eased. IIRC, someone posted a picture of a derailing train taking out a building on the Englewood branch.

Now Busjack, try not to get mad with me on this, O.K.? I was 10 years old when the rear 2 cars of a southbound Jackson Park B train derailed at 40th & Indiana around December 7th 1966. At least 2 people died in that derailment. My friend's mother, coming home from work, was riding on that very train. Fortunately, she was not on one of the cars that fell. I also remember 2 cars of a southbound four car train falling off the el structure at the curve at 40th & Wabash in 1972. The el derailment at Wabash and Lake in 1977 is also etched in my memory. In fact when I first heard about it, I was holding breath hoping that the derailment didn't involve one of the new 2400 series cars that was being introduced in service at that time. So, no Bubba. Not only was I old enough to remember these accidents, but I also had a very good grasp of why they happened. With respect to a derailment at the "old" Harrison curve, that may very well have been before my time as I recall reading that a North Shore Interurban train lost it's brakes approaching that curve resulting in a derailment. And as for the picture of the flat door 6000 car dangling off the structure at the 59th Street junction after taking out part of an apartment building during it's derailing, it was me that posted that picture.

When I mentioned the 59th/Wentworth curve, all I was saying is that because of it's height and the fact that it crosses, not only a very heavily traveled expressway, but an expressway that also carries a heavily traveled median- center transit line - the Red Line - if a train ever derailed and fell at that curve, that would truly be a disaster regardless of what time the incident happened. Don't get me wrong; I truly hope this NEVER happens. But given what happened on the Blue Line at O'hare, it kinda makes me nervous about what could potentially happen anywhere along the rest of the system, including 59th and Wentworth if CTA does not get it's act together.

[trainman8119]

At least the New Blue shutdowns are only on the weekend. Some artic weekend routes can go back to 40 footers.

As for your other point, there doesn't seem to be any other public transit way to get to O'Hare, unless someone thinks it is quicker to somehow get to the 330 Pace bus.

or 250 in Des Plaines

[trainman8119]

I don't want to be biased like the People Of The CTA picture poster with his sexist photo of the crash saying CTA is safer than being in a car with a woman driver, but given the time of the crash, you have to wonder how many of the impending lawsuits that will be filed come from people legitimately hurt. What I'm driving at is the accident occurred in the wee hours of the morning(between 2a-3a) and the Blue and Red Lines are usually rolling sleeping quarters for homeless who are drunk or high and want to sleep it off(not all, but most). This type of incident is a way to keep them on their liquor and drug fix for a long time. IMO, I know they must be included in the lawsuit, but to be helpful to them, if they win a verdict, I would as a judge require paperwork from a Hospital or Clinic for the total charges incurred and a check will be made and sent out to the establishments treating them for their injuries, and not them directly. I might get a lot of flak for this post, in particularly these comments, but if you see a homeless person begging for food, you buy them something only to have them say "I don't want it, I want the money!", doesn't that tell you something right there? I've seen homeless that spent the day begging come through a register with one bottle of vodka totaling near $10, paying with $4 in bills and the rest miscellaneous change. That money could've bought a meal for him/her!

Best wishes, CTA. Hopefully any homeless in the lawsuit will get a judgment rendered directly to the medical providers providing medical help to any injured during the crash rather than giving them a check right to their hands. The working class people injured can get a check.... I know it's biased, but at least it'll go towards what it needs to go towards... the medical charges incurred.

I think you need to be out more at 3-4 am before saying these trains are nothing but rolling homeless shelters. On my way to work in the morning (at 4) the front part of the outbound trains are quite full with workers headed out to the airport for early shifts. Your busier stations (Jeff Park and Irving Park) often have 10-20 people on them waiting for trains. While I am sure there are freeloaders out there, there are also a lot of people using the L at that time. I know what it is like to hit a bumping post at 10-12 MPH...I can imagine 25 flying through the air. Trust me...anyone on that train who is claiming to be hurt, is.