BusHunter Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 Well O'hare is supposed to reopen in about an hour according to the Tribune. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-blue-line-station-at-ohare-to-reopen-sunday-20140330,0,4611091.story Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trainman8119 Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 CTA also needs to improve its medical screenings for its operating workers. In the past weve seen buses out of control and colliding into cars such as the 76 Diversey bus accident when the driver suffered a seizure at the wheel and collided into some twenty parked cars. Half the time these accidents occur its a result of the operator having some medical condition behind the wheel. I was witness to a Pace bus running onto a sidewalk taking down a stop sign at Lake near Ridgeland a few years back when I was working #86 Narragansett. I stopped to see what had happened to the operator. She had a seizure behind the wheel and was found slumped over the steering wheel with the bus still in gear. Had this incident happened just a block down at the Ridgeland bus stop where about ten people were standing waiting for our buses. It would have been a very different story. CTA /Pace need to do a better job of weeding out bus and train operators with serious medical conditions that could pose a safety hazard to the public. BUSJACK can probable clear this up on what I will say, but I think their hands may be tied in that they can't discriminate against someone because of a medical condition. There may need to be more attention paid to those with conditions, but, as silly as it sounds, I don't think you can keep someone from a position solely on a medical issue, especially something that can be controlled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 BUSJACK can probable clear this up on what I will say, but I think their hands may be tied in that they can't discriminate against someone because of a medical condition. There may need to be more attention paid to those with conditions, but, as silly as it sounds, I don't think you can keep someone from a position solely on a medical issue, especially something that can be controlled. Answer to that is no. The ADA requires that a person be given a job if the person can accomplish the job with reasonable accommodation to the handicap.If someone has seizures so bad that they can't, for instance, get a driver's license, then they can't meet the qualifications for the job. Now, if there were a dependable enough deadman control so that someone can do the job despite the handicap, that would be different, but the current deadman apparently can't even stop a ghost. I would go along with 5750's and BusHunter's implied question whether there is an adequate means of screening operators before taking the controls, especially since CTA would have to screen thousands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garmon757 Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 I would go along with 5750's and BusHunter's implied question whether there is an adequate means of screening operators before taking the controls, especially since CTA would have to screen thousands. You know how much hell that would raise if that was the scenario? Not only it'll be inconvenient but it'll cost money. Something that Kelly would crap about just to put his name in the spotlight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajuan Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Trains did in fact go back in service to O'Hare earlier this afternoon sometime around 1:50 PM based on the time of the latest service alert. The alert made no mention of trains having to one track it or face any kind of delays. It just said normal service was restored upon repairs made to the damage caused by 3061-62 from last week's derailment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusHunter Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Pictures on CTA's facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.618452878244339.1073741890.134339103322388&type=1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajuan Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Pictures on CTA's facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.618452878244339.1073741890.134339103322388&type=1 They did good work. You can't even tell that the stairs and escalator were smashed by an eight-car train a week ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusHunter Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 They switched the down escalator to an up one. Still riders have to lug bags down the stairs without falling down them. Hopefully this gets fixed soon. I would've just boarded up the old up escalator. This makes it look like they are in no hurry to fix that escalator. Maybe they are waiting for the insurance to kick in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 ...Maybe they are waiting for the insurance to kick in. In that CTA is self insured, I doubt it. The dump truck driver did not wreck the escalator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusHunter Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 Actually the trib O'Hare pictures may answer some questions. Check out the weak looking bumper post. Looks like they bought it at Toys R Us. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-photos-blue-line-ohare-station-reopens-20140330,0,6300366.photogallery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 Actually the trib O'Hare pictures may answer some questions. Check out the weak looking bumper post. Looks like they bought it at Toys R Us. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-photos-blue-line-ohare-station-reopens-20140330,0,6300366.photogallery If you are referring to images 6 and 8, that's the new one, after the repairs. What was there before isn't depicted, and it appears that what is depicted is further away from the raised walkway. The two imponderables are: What sent the car up, instead of into the raised walkway. The NTSB investigator's statement that "the train had both electric brakes (from this WGN account, apparently referring to reversing through the resisters) and disc brakes and both were on, and the train was trying to stop." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 BUSJACK can probable clear this up on what I will say, but I think their hands may be tied in that they can't discriminate against someone because of a medical condition. There may need to be more attention paid to those with conditions, but, as silly as it sounds, I don't think you can keep someone from a position solely on a medical issue, especially something that can be controlled. When youre in the business of transportation and you have human lives in your hands you have to be 100 percent healthy! There are no shortcuts about it! Its not about discrimination, its about the safety of the public! For example, If you have an operator with a history of seizures, that condition cant always be controlled. And if you have operators on some type of medication, many of those medications you are not allowed to be driving a vehicle. This presents IMO, a very serious safety issue that I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up as a local investigative news story. So if this is truly whats happening to some CTA workers, those individuals as well as CTA management are putting many lives at risk! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajuan Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 When youre in the business of transportation and you have human lives in your hands you have to be 100 percent healthy! There are no shortcuts about it! Its not about discrimination, its about the safety of the public! For example, If you have an operator with a history of seizures, that condition cant always be controlled. And if you have operators on some type of medication, many of those medications you are not allowed to be driving a vehicle. This presents IMO, a very serious safety issue that I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up as a local investigative news story. So if this is truly whats happening to some CTA workers, those individuals as well as CTA management are putting many lives at risk! Sorry but you're asking CTA to start getting into that territory of possibly violation of HIPAA and definite violations of ADA. CTA is a government employer and it can't discriminate against anyone who's shown some demonstration that they can handle the job. As Busjack pointed out, if the person's illness is demonstrated to be so hard to control that their ability to handle a vehicle is called into question, they wouldn't even be allowed a driver's license to begin with. And having a license is one of the central requirements to get hired as an operator. What you're asking that CTA start doing requires several changes and/or exceptions in relevant laws for them to be on the right side of the law. So if you feel that strongly about it, you're looking in the wrong place. You'd have to push for a change in federal laws for sure to accomplish what you're asking for. And good luck with that one with the present Congress in the control of folks whose goals aren't to compromise with the other political party that's also charged with leading the government as our system of government is supposed to work, but instead to gum up the works with a load of uneducated, childish nonsense every chance they see an opportunity for it just because they don't like the current President. That's as far as I'll go into the political side of things because the amount I did delve into is enough to make my point that changing the requisite federal laws to accommodate your stated goal is virtually impossible right now when even in nonpolarized times it's already hard to do to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artthouwill Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 CTA also needs to improve its medical screenings for its operating workers. In the past weve seen buses out of control and colliding into cars such as the 76 Diversey bus accident when the driver suffered a seizure at the wheel and collided into some twenty parked cars. Half the time these accidents occur its a result of the operator having some medical condition behind the wheel. I was witness to a Pace bus running onto a sidewalk taking down a stop sign at Lake near Ridgeland a few years back when I was working #86 Narragansett. I stopped to see what had happened to the operator. She had a seizure behind the wheel and was found slumped over the steering wheel with the bus still in gear. Had this incident happened just a block down at the Ridgeland bus stop where about ten people were standing waiting for our buses. It would have been a very different story. CTA /Pace need to do a better job of weeding out bus and train operators with serious medical conditions that could pose a safety hazard to the public. There are federal guidelines for screening workers as given by D.O.T, which are strict. Once a person passes their D.O.T physical, they are given a medical examiner's card which an operator must carry along with his/her license at all times. Most cards are good for two years from date of examination, but sometimes the examining doctor may issue one for only a year or even 3 months if there is some concern in a particular area. PACE, the suburban bus agency, requires D.O.T. exams EVERY year., even from the operators that work for contractors. There is no way a physical exam can predict if/when someone will have a seizure, heart attack, asthma attack, etc. However, a doctor giving a D.O.T exam may not pass someone if they have high blood pressure, too much blood sugar, or if taking certain medications in association with those conditions. The only thing a doctor can do is pass someone based on their ability to pass their physical examination at the time given. He could also outright fail them OR give them a temporary card (for 3 months) with a reexamination. Those are usually given if a person has a problem that may not be at a serious enough level to fail them, but if not brought under control in short order COULD lead to failing. Seeing as the female rail operator was a flag person first, she more than likely still had to pass a physical when she first got the flagman position. Trainman can say for sure, but I think that conductors would have to pass a D.O.T. physical as well. Fatigue, though a problem in transportation, is not necessarily a medical issue. You would have to be diagnosed or tested for sleep apnea for that to be a medical issue. Getting proper rest is the responsibility of the operator. It is also the responsibility of the operator to tell a supervisor or dispatcher that he/she is too fatigued to continue operating a vehicle safely. Sometimes it may call for that operator to call off work. If she has been reprimanded before for nodding off behind the throttle, there should've been steps taken then. While terminating her then may have been considered too harsh, putting her back on flag duty would not have been. Perhaps increased ride alongs (where a supervisor rides along with her on some trips, especially the night ones) would've helped. I understand that due to union work rules, putting her on days only wouldn't work. This is sad in that it seemed like she was done with her shift when this happened. She probably fought fatigue from Western all the way to the airport and when pulling in, was relieved to be finally getting off work, and relaxed (a sigh that turned into a snooze). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusHunter Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 Yeah that may sound good and all but if this operator would've killed someone she'd be facing reckless homicide charges. What she has done twice is serious. First time she got away with it the second time she got lucky again escaping with just property damage but are they seriously going to roll the dice with her again? If anything I would be looking for her dot physical doctor because there may be something that he's missed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajuan Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 Yeah that may sound good and all but if this operator would've killed someone she'd be facing reckless homicide charges. What she has done twice is serious. First time she got away with it the second time she got lucky again escaping with just property damage but are they seriously going to roll the dice with her again? If anything I would be looking for her dot physical doctor because there may be something that he's missed. Come on now. Are you really going to stay stuck on the fact that she f****ed up to the point of ignoring everything he just said? Yes someone could have gotten seriously hurt and even killed, but continuing to stay stuck on that aspect alone does not help to keep it or a similar situation from happening again, rather I should say keep the possibility of it from happening again as close to zero as possible since we're all still human and therefore imperfect beings. She screwed up royally. No one is disputing that and CTA is belatedly moving to correct that. But focusing only on the screw up alone as I said doesn't help get rules or better enforcement of old ones in place to try to prevent the next major screw up from happening in the future. Now Art laid out some good information on how things on the personnel side of things are supposed to work theoretically speaking. So the question we need not ignore is whether all those personnel checks and balances being followed as stringently as they should have been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 Sorry but you're asking CTA to start getting into that territory of possibly violation of HIPAA and definite violations of ADA. ... As Busjack pointed out, if the person's illness is demonstrated to be so hard to control that their ability to handle a vehicle is called into question, they wouldn't even be allowed a driver's license to begin with. And having a license is one of the central requirements to get hired as an operator. ... Which was my point that a change in the ADA is not necessary. CTA is not required to hire bus operators who are blind or black out, for the simple reason that they cannot be reasonably accommodated to do the job but for their disabilities. Even though I assume that one doesn't need a CDL to be a train operator, I assume that equal physical ability is required to operate a train, and hence a person with black outs is not protected. A different issue would be presented if someone needing a wheel chair wanted to be a bus driver, and could be accommodated, if some means were provided to get past the shield. However, I doubt that CTA would be under a duty to provide a bus with hand controls because the driver can't use the pedals. On the other hand, that person could run a train, with only minor accomodation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 Yeah that may sound good and all but if this operator would've killed someone she'd be facing reckless homicide charges. What she has done twice is serious. First time she got away with it the second time she got lucky again escaping with just property damage but are they seriously going to roll the dice with her again? If anything I would be looking for her dot physical doctor because there may be something that he's missed. It certainly would be the case if the person were operating a motor vehicle (like a bus), and you have the correct legal term for that. However, since the Criminal Code says that reckless homicide is otherwise involuntary manslaughter, she could be charged with that (720 ILCS 5/9-3). Anyway, involuntary manslaughter is defined as "[a] person who unintentionally kills an individual without lawful justification commits involuntary manslaughter if his acts whether lawful or unlawful which cause the death are such as are likely to cause death or great bodily harm to some individual, and he performs them recklessly..." Recklessness is defined in 720 ILCS 5/4-6: "A person is reckless or acts recklessly when that person consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that circumstances exist or that a result will follow, described by the statute defining the offense, and that disregard constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that a reasonable person would exercise in the situation." So, it depends on whether she was just careless in operating the train, which wouldn't be enough, or knew that she was prone to blackouts and consciously disregarded that risk to others. I'm not sure that the State's Attorney would charge based on what has so far been revealed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garmon757 Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 I just realized that I took pictures of #3061-62 wrapped up with the Scottsdale, AZ ad last month @ Forest Park!!! Damn, this sucks to see them come to an end because of this incident.... :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusHunter Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 What? no pictures Garmon!! I believe I rode that car the day before this happened about 12 hours before to be exact. I was thinking now I'm probably on video at the NTSB!! I always wanted to visit DC!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusHunter Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 Come on now. Are you really going to stay stuck on the fact that she f****ed up to the point of ignoring everything he just said? Yes someone could have gotten seriously hurt and even killed, but continuing to stay stuck on that aspect alone does not help to keep it or a similar situation from happening again, rather I should say keep the possibility of it from happening again as close to zero as possible since we're all still human and therefore imperfect beings. She screwed up royally. No one is disputing that and CTA is belatedly moving to correct that. But focusing only on the screw up alone as I said doesn't help get rules or better enforcement of old ones in place to try to prevent the next major screw up from happening in the future. Now Art laid out some good information on how things on the personnel side of things are supposed to work theoretically speaking. So the question we need not ignore is whether all those personnel checks and balances being followed as stringently as they should have been. Yeah but you sound like you are defending her. To answer your question yes, I'm sorry an unsafe train operator is inexcusable. What the crime is with this is she will probably get away with it even though the union head is engaging in questionable practices stretching the truth, impeding an NTSB investigation to get her to keep her job. If the union can get her to keep her job that's some union (almost like the democratic machine) and It almost displays an overbearance of power over the CTA. I mean pretty soon we'll be assigning equipment based on what the union head says. According to WTTW Chicagotonight, Kelly has also impeded the Forest Park incident in the past calling a news conference of his own to defend his unionized employees. http://chicagotonight.wttw.com/2014/03/28/cta-union-chief-we-ve-all-dozed-driving-train I just hope someone who is not in a union doesn't lose their job over this because that's just not fair!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garmon757 Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 What? no pictures Garmon!! I believe I rode that car the day before this happened about 12 hours before to be exact. I was thinking now I'm probably on video at the NTSB!! I always wanted to visit DC!! My pictures are in the Train Ads topic!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 ... If the union can get her to keep her job that's some union (almost like the democratic machine) and It almost displays an overbearance of power over the CTA. I mean pretty soon we'll be assigning equipment based on what the union head says. .... Since I'm sure that CTA isn't going to shove this one under the rug. It essentially depends on what the arbitrator decides at the end of the grievance procedure. However, it seems like Kelly wants to step into the void left when Local 241 was put into receivership, since Jefferson used to be the "face" of the ATU in Chicago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajuan Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 Yeah but you sound like you are defending her. To answer your question yes, I'm sorry an unsafe train operator is inexcusable. What the crime is with this is she will probably get away with it even though the union head is engaging in questionable practices stretching the truth, impeding an NTSB investigation to get her to keep her job. If the union can get her to keep her job that's some union (almost like the democratic machine) and It almost displays an overbearance of power over the CTA. I mean pretty soon we'll be assigning equipment based on what the union head says. According to WTTW Chicagotonight, Kelly has also impeded the Forest Park incident in the past calling a news conference of his own to defend his unionized employees. http://chicagotonight.wttw.com/2014/03/28/cta-union-chief-we-ve-all-dozed-driving-train I just hope someone who is not in a union doesn't lose their job over this because that's just not fair!! I'm not defending her. Point to one thing I said that suggests that I am. If you go back and read everything I said in regard to her part in this, you will see quite clearly that I've been rather consistent in my position that she is not the ONLY person responsible for the way the derailment unfolded. Don't get so caught up in the fact that she screwed up and was the catalyst in the derailment and your own anger in her part that you misinterpret and mischaracterize what I say sir. And just because Kelly is a clearly not good at his job in representing the union and blowing hot air out his rear end doesn't mean she's going to get away with her part in the situation. If he is in fact impeding the two Blue Line crash investigations the feds do know how to penalize him for it. This is not some local group of inspectors with a vested interest in giving CTA a slap on the wrist that we're talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusHunter Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 I'm not defending her. Point to one thing I said that suggests that I am. If you go back and read everything I said in regard to her part in this, you will see quite clearly that I've been rather consistent in my position that she is not the ONLY person responsible for the way the derailment unfolded. Don't get so caught up in the fact that she screwed up and was the catalyst in the derailment and your own anger in her part that you misinterpret and mischaracterize what I say sir. And just because Kelly is a clearly not good at his job in representing the union and blowing hot air out his rear end doesn't mean she's going to get away with her part in the situation. If he is in fact impeding the two Blue Line crash investigations the feds do know how to penalize him for it. This is not some local group of inspectors with a vested interest in giving CTA a slap on the wrist that we're talking about. I think your problem is that your stuck on the idea that it's not just her fault. Well whose fault is it sir? Are you telling me that a track is supposed to be designed for sleeping operators? You might say well "she was being overworked", but the fault goes back to her. Like art says it is her ultimate responsibility to report if she feels she can't do the job because we are not mind readers here. Now if your suggesting they back up the trip sensors that may help, but not in the case of sudden acceleration, by the time any fault system catches up to you the accident already happened. I think the problem doesn't lie in whether she entered the station correctly, it's how she approached the stopping of the train. Right when she was supposed to stop she accelerated. Putting a sensor at the end of the platform does not do anything for you. You would have to put trip sensors every 10 -20 feet to really be effective. Is that practical? Really if you want to keep this from happening again all you have to do is put a better deadman's control like NYC does. That does work immediately and doesn't have the delay of trip sensors if you are in between them. But that has problems too. If a persons fall asleep holding the trottle wide open which looks like what happened here that's not going to help either. So I don't know if it's possible to stop this from ever happening again. I think the key is getting the operator to not be in that position in the first place by stringent rules. If operators knew there would be consequences for their actions up to an including termination maybe they wouldn't be taking risks with peoples lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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