CTA Fall Pick Changes

[BusHunter]

I was reading about this article below and wow this is really going to change up the bus schedules for school runs. If the high schoolers get out at 4:30 PM, the Lane Tech school runs wouldn't even get to the west end until 5:30 and by the time they got back to LSD it would be about 6:30 maybe later accounting for traffic increases. i wonder if this will extend the mid day slowdown in service? Would they need buses pulling out starting around 2PM, if there were no kids for 2 1/2 hours? I would also wonder if places like np might need a few extra buses because those buses on the #152 would be taken away from the loop. It almost sounds like those could be pullins and never go to the loop. Should be an interesting fall pick.

http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20150728/west-loop/your-rush-hour-cta-commute-could-be-getting-more-crowded

[Busjack]

I was reading about this article below and wow this is really going to change up the bus schedules for school runs. If the high schoolers get out at 4:30 PM, the Lane Tech school runs wouldn't even get to the west end until 5:30 and by the time they got back to LSD it would be about 6:30 maybe later accounting for traffic increases. i wonder if this will extend the mid day slowdown in service? Would they need buses pulling out starting around 2PM, if there were no kids for 2 1/2 hours? I would also wonder if places like np might need a few extra buses because those buses on the #152 would be taken away from the loop. It almost sounds like those could be pullins and never go to the loop. Should be an interesting fall pick.

http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20150728/west-loop/your-rush-hour-cta-commute-could-be-getting-more-crowded

The article seemed to be a mix of "waiting at the bus stop" and "the service planning department," only the latter of which would imply school runs. There was also mention of elementary school buses now running at the same time as high school ones, so I guess the article is correct that the service planning department has to figure this all out.

[BusHunter]

The article seemed to be a mix of "waiting at the bus stop" and "the service planning department," only the latter of which would imply school runs. There was also mention of elementary school buses now running at the same time as high school ones, so I guess the article is correct that the service planning department has to figure this all out.

It might actually have the potential to improve the rush hour service in the afternoon, cause on certain routes there would be an abundance of service, but those caught near high schools might have a harder time getting on a bus. In the morning it could have an opposite effect as more 9-5 workers are on the bus at 8AM.

That sounds really late, 9AM?, that's time for the buses to pullin. They could always have those switch to do the mid day service. If not there seems to be not much hours for the PT's to put in.

[andrethebusman]

This will definitely affect the PM rush. AM not so much, as you just keep a few pullins on the street later, such as on Addison you would not have the 6 AM North Park buses at the height of the AM rush, but some FG pullins would make an additional trip. PM is a different matter. While in reality this will mean FEWER school trippers, as there is already more service at 430pm than at 330, and thus less need for extras. For instance, Addison might simply lose the four Lane extras in the afternoon, as the figuring is that at 430 Addison is at max already. But what I don't understand is that they say that school will start a half hour later, at 900am. Let-outs are at all different hours now, for instance Lane is at 330, Lake View at 400. Are all high schools get standardized starts and quits now?

Edited July 29, 2015 by andrethebusman

[BusHunter]

This will definitely affect the PM rush. AM not so much, as you just keep a few pullins on the street later, such as on Addison you would not have the 6 AM North Park buses at the height of the AM rush, but some FG pullins would make an additional trip. PM is a different matter. While in reality this will mean FEWER school trippers, as there is already more service at 430pm than at 330, and thus less need for extras. For instance, Addison might simply lose the four Lane extras in the afternoon, as the figuring is that at 430 Addison is at max already. But what I don't understand is that they say that school will start a half hour later, at 900am. Let-outs are at all different hours now, for instance Lane is at 330, Lake View at 400. Are all high schools get standardized starts and quits now?

Yeah, but in the AM would they still run a #152 extra 9:30AM to the loop for a trip south? It almost too late to do that as it's pullin time. It would probably be a disaster to just leave fg service out with no extras as Lane tech going east or west is in the neighborhood of 1,000 students.

To answer your last sentence, yes it does sounds like it's being standardized.

[orionbuslover]

In a different story I read about the changes, CPS claimed this will save them money on transportation costs by spreading out the start and end times. It's ironic because now CTA may possibly have increased costs.  The school districts in many cities throughout the country actually pay the local  transit agency for the extra school runs, not the case in Chicago. Slowly, CTA's bus  system has become a peak, commuter system. In the not too distant past it was uncommon to have routes on more than a 10 min headway. Now, 15- 30 min headways are the norm on many routes outside of peak periods. I think just as many people in Chicago get off at 4 pm as 5 pm, so the influx of students riding at that time will make for more crowded conditions. Having to keep the budget neutral or dealing with a budget cut, means less non peak service to have increased peak service. It will be interesting to see the new schedules come fall.

[NewFlyerMCI]

In a different story I read about the changes, CPS claimed this will save them money on transportation costs by spreading out the start and end times. It's ironic because now CTA may possibly have increased costs.  The school districts in many cities throughout the country actually pay the local  transit agency for the extra school runs, not the case in Chicago. ...

This is actually very prominent in DC. DCPS and WMATA work in conjuction to provide several high schools with dedicated service to either a local train station or neighborhoods where they have the highest concentration of students. For instance, the D51 crosses under the southern end of the Mall from SE DC to get to Georgetown where Duke Ellington HS is. While Chicago has many more schools, a system like this, would theoretically work. For example, almost the artic buses out of Bladensburg yard run on the X2 or X1. McKinley Tech HS (see M31 below) has enough students that they pull about 2 artics (they use a total of 3 buses) to transport the students to the high school 8 mins away in good traffic and then return to the X lines or to the R2 two train stops away. In the evening, almost all the buses (non-artics) return to Rhode Island Ave and then start and H8 trip which uses the station as a terminus. I see this as a possible solution to solving some of these problems, but the relative size of the cities complicates things.

http://www.wmata.com/bus/timetables/dc/m31.pdf

http://www.wmata.com/bus/timetables/dc/c40.pdf?n

http://www.wmata.com/bus/timetables/dc/d31-34.pdf

http://www.wmata.com/bus/timetables/dc/a31-33.pdf

[orionbuslover]

I see this as a possible solution to solving some of these problems, but the relative size of the cities complicates things.

http://www.wmata.com/bus/timetables/dc/m31.pdf

It's not just the size of Chicago that would complicate creating a system like this. Chicago basically has a perfect grid of streets, with major streets spaced every half mile. Most of the schools are located along main streets or a few blocks away. So CTA  just adds or deletes trips based off when school's in session, instead of creating specialized routes. For whatever reason, CTA has never asked to be paid for services rendered and a precedent has been set that would be nearly impossible to alter.

[Busjack]

In a different story I read about the changes, CPS claimed this will save them money on transportation costs by spreading out the start and end times. It's ironic because now CTA may possibly have increased costs. ...

The question is how many students are served by CTA vs. how many are still served by private operators running yellow school buses.The CTA passes cost the same one way or the other, but the private school bus contracts do not.

DNAInfo reference.

[BusHunter]

The question is how many students are served by CTA vs. how many are still served by private operators running yellow school buses.The CTA passes cost the same one way or the other, but the private school bus contracts do not.

DNAInfo reference.

The answer I would say is not many on the yellow buses, maybe 10 percent, mostly special education students. i would think they would use them more to go to extra curricular activities like football games on opposing turf.

Kind of interesting, in the winter this schedule basically puts all the high schoolers coming home in the dark. I'm surprised someone hasn't raised concerns over this and possible crossings of gang territory by our youths in the dark, many of which will be discovering public transit on there own for the first times in their lives. This has a certain vulnerability aspect to it and exposes the kids to a higher risk of harm as motorists too will have to watch out for these kids in a less visible setting.

[andrethebusman]

The yellow perils are a relatively new phenomenon in Chicago to begin with. Until the early 70's the vast majority of kids went to their neighborhood school for grades 1 to 8, and took CTA to high school or walked. When "permissive busing" started in the grammar schools, CTA was the original contractor, with direct school to school service. However, after one school year and complaining by the few school bus outfits that then existed, all the CPS work went to private outfits. CTA had a long history of dedicated school buses using special routes, going back to the 1960's if not earlier, until the feds decided that transit authorities should not compete with private enterprise. Evanston Bus was probably the first to run special school routes, starting in 1926 when Evanston Township High School moved out to Dodge Ave from Dempster and Ridge. What is left now, and PACE still has quite a few, are special routes that are considered "public" and are shown on some route's timetables, even though 99% of the business is school kids. CTA still has a few, such as the St Laurence HS (77/Central) to Midway L buses.

[andrethebusman]

Something that also needs to be considered... Back in the early 1970's, Addison bused to get 22 (yes, 22) school trippers in the afternoon, 11 at Artesian and 11 at Maplewood. Gordon Tech got two more westbounds starting at California and Waveland, and Western had two northbounds. In addition the Roscoe bus got quite a load on one trip to the Paulina L. Now, the travel patterns have dramatically changed. There are only four WB Addisons, no Gordon buses, but there are four eastbounds to the Red Line. The regular buses get much more of the school load. When I was going to school, you were expected to ride the extras, the regulars would not even stop to pick up kids, even if an extra was late and there was a bunch of kids waiting at Artesian with no bus there.

 

[Busjack]

I guess one can try to figure out what is indicated by this Tribune article. Also, note who is taking credit for this.

The school bus angle was based on the prior article (to which this one refers) that the pickup points for those going to selective enrollment schools were going to change. Obviously, that wouldn't be relevant if the students were riding CTA.

[jajuan]

I guess one can try to figure out what is indicated by this Tribune article. Also, note who is taking credit for this.

The school bus angle was based on the prior article (to which this one refers) that the pickup points for those going to selective enrollment schools were going to change. Obviously, that wouldn't be relevant if the students were riding CTA.

Claypool is at the heart of this which means from past experience with De-Crowd good luck convincing CPS to modify these changes or in getting them to listen to any input on them.

[artthouwill]

The yellow perils are a relatively new phenomenon in Chicago to begin with. Until the early 70's the vast majority of kids went to their neighborhood school for grades 1 to 8, and took CTA to high school or walked. When "permissive busing" started in the grammar schools, CTA was the original contractor, with direct school to school service. However, after one school year and complaining by the few school bus outfits that then existed, all the CPS work went to private outfits. CTA had a long history of dedicated school buses using special routes, going back to the 1960's if not earlier, until the feds decided that transit authorities should not compete with private enterprise. Evanston Bus was probably the first to run special school routes, starting in 1926 when Evanston Township High School moved out to Dodge Ave from Dempster and Ridge. What is left now, and PACE still has quite a few, are special routes that are considered "public" and are shown on some route's timetables, even though 99% of the business is school kids. CTA still has a few, such as the St Laurence HS (77/Central) to Midway L buses.

One would think Pace wold operate 77th/Central to Midway with 379 trippers and not CTA.  Even though the signs still exist west of Cicero on 79th, CTA eliminated its service on the 79th st route to St Laurence.

[jajuan]

One would think Pace wold operate 77th/Central to Midway with 379 trippers and not CTA.  Even though the signs still exist west of Cicero on 79th, CTA eliminated its service on the 79th st route to St Laurence.

But they still exist on the 54B which I think was the route Andre was referring to this time on CTA's part.

[BusHunter]

One thing that maybe no one has really taken in account is the traffic changes a later exit time will result in. You know when schools like Schurz gets out, the EB traffic just builds wildly from Pulaski. Now the WB should be alright because they have no parking 4-6 and an extra lane. Really to be successful they need no parking on the whole street 4-6. I can see traffic building to Cicero EB. But that's nothing when you at Lane. For some strange reason there is no parking restrictions on Addison east of Western. When Lane gets out this is really going to hurt traffic WB, it would be like a Cubs game, traffic would pile up from at least Lincoln WB. 

Speaking of Cubs games, if they have any 1:20 starts, the games will end right around 4-4:30, which puts even more traffic on Addison. I'll be seeing them on the west end in 90-120 minutes.

[artthouwill]

But they still exist on the 54B which I think was the route Andre was referring to this time on CTA's part.

I get that but my point is still that it should be a Pace operated school tripper.  Is not St Laurence in Burbank?  Doesn't the 379 (not the 54B) pass by 79th/Central and runs via 79th and Cicero to Ford City and Midway?

[andrethebusman]

I get that but my point is still that it should be a Pace operated school tripper.  Is not St Laurence in Burbank?  Doesn't the 379 (not the 54B) pass by 79th/Central and runs via 79th and Cicero to Ford City and Midway?

Suburban Transit ran the St Laurence buses once upon a time. Apparently circa 1983 (yes, this was a long time ago), but most of the kids were going into Chicago, so Suburban claimed it was CTA's problem, not theirs. At the time the buses went east on 79th to Ashland (from Beverly) or up to Cicero/Archer (Archer garage) and ran with "Chartered" signs.

[artthouwill]

Suburban Transit ran the St Laurence buses once upon a time. Apparently circa 1983 (yes, this was a long time ago), but most of the kids were going into Chicago, so Suburban claimed it was CTA's problem, not theirs. At the time the buses went east on 79th to Ashland (from Beverly) or up to Cicero/Archer (Archer garage) and ran with "Chartered" signs.

In some cases CTA loves to encroach on Pace territory and others CTA retreats from its own territory (56A and 49A come to mind).  I suppose streamlining and eliminating duplication isn't really the priority some have made it out to be,

[jajuan]

I get that but my point is still that it should be a Pace operated school tripper.  Is not St Laurence in Burbank?  Doesn't the 379 (not the 54B) pass by 79th/Central and runs via 79th and Cicero to Ford City and Midway?

Suburban Transit ran the St Laurence buses once upon a time. Apparently circa 1983 (yes, this was a long time ago), but most of the kids were going into Chicago, so Suburban claimed it was CTA's problem, not theirs. At the time the buses went east on 79th to Ashland (from Beverly) or up to Cicero/Archer (Archer garage) and ran with "Chartered" signs.

And there you have your answer Art. Pace and it's predecessors had no interest running service for St Laurence and the kids have to get home, so who did it leave to do so? CTA like it or not. I get the whole CTA versus Pace argument, but that just doesn't work cleanly with the suburbs neighboring the city limits especially when by state law CTA is authorized to provide service outside the city limits as long as it stays within the bounds of Cook County. So like it or not we're going to see these kinds of overlaps. Plus getting too nit picky with who gives what near the city limits line opens up that same argument to the rail side, and are you really expecting them to tell Oak Park it can no longer have those Blue Line and Green Line stations or Evanston that it can no longer have the Purple Line? Heck look at the fuss this months long suspension of the Yellow Line is causing. And quite frankly I doubt in this time of CTA and Pace both scaling back services that those riders who live in the Cook County burbs who need to come into the city and vice versa really care as long as they can get from point A to point B for a work or school commute. But getting back this particular service for St Laurence, you can't actually duplicate what's not there. Pace is not providing it and has shown no interest in 30 years of providing it, so CTA has. The only difference now is it seems like today, most of the kids are now coming more from north of the school than they are east of it given CTA dropped the school trippers from 79 but kept those on the 54B. 

[artthouwill]

 

And there you have your answer Art. Pace and it's predecessors had no interest running service for St Laurence and the kids have to get home, so who did it leave to do so? CTA like it or not. I get the whole CTA versus Pace argument, but that just doesn't work cleanly with the suburbs neighboring the city limits especially when by state law CTA is authorized to provide service outside the city limits as long as it stays within the bounds of Cook County. So like it or not we're going to see these kinds of overlaps. Plus getting too nit picky with who gives what near the city limits line opens up that same argument to the rail side, and are you really expecting them to tell Oak Park it can no longer have those Blue Line and Green Line stations or Evanston that it can no longer have the Purple Line? Heck look at the fuss this months long suspension of the Yellow Line is causing. And quite frankly I doubt in this time of CTA and Pace both scaling back services that those riders who live in the Cook County burbs who need to come into the city and vice versa really care as long as they can get from point A to point B for a work or school commute. But getting back this particular service for St Laurence, you can't actually duplicate what's not there. Pace is not providing it and has shown no interest in 30 years of providing it, so CTA has. The only difference now is it seems like today, most of the kids are now coming more from north of the school than they are east of it given CTA dropped the school trippers from 79 but kept those on the 54B. 

I understand the history, but also some things were different.  For instance, at that time the 54B ended at the Scottsdale Shopping Center at 79th and Cicero.  The 79th bus also served Scottsdale.  The RTA buses along 79th ended at Ford City with the exception of the Cicero bus which went to Midway.  Then all suburban service in that area was truncated to Ford City until the opening of the Orange Line.  So at that time it was logical that CTA ran the service from 77th/Central on the 79th and the 54B routes.

NOW, however the 79th Pace route runs all the way to the Midway station.  It still would make sense that Pace should run the tripper.  But if CTA wants to run it and Pace is content with them running it, then so be it.

As for your Oak Park comparison, that is a bad example in that Pace doesn't duplicate L service along those lines per se (it has no trains).  Also any parallel bus service is a local service and ends at the city limits.  My understanding of the trippers is that the service ENDS at Midway, which is where the 379 ends.

[andrethebusman]

Back before RTA, Suburban Transit ran extensive school bus services. STS only had three regular routes by then, 1-95th from 63rd/Halsted to 127th/Cal Sag - Roberts/106th - 95th/Kean - Harlem/87th - 123rd/88th Av, 2-Cicero from 63rd to 103rd, and 3 Central/Narragansett from Cicero/63rd to Central/103rd. They however had school runs from Oak Lawn HS and St Laurence/Queen of Peace. That is what they used the old-looks for (that were almost all destroyed in the Oak Lawn tornado, as they had all just come back to the garage from school trippers). After RTA started, Suburban started getting more and extended routes, and soon the garage on 95th was very crowded. So when they realized that more and more kids from St Laurence were going into the city instead of west or south, they told the school to find somebody else to run their service as they needed the buses they were using elsewhere. So St Laurence went to CTA which came up with at that time the 8 or so buses that were needed.

[jajuan]

I understand the history, but also some things were different.  For instance, at that time the 54B ended at the Scottsdale Shopping Center at 79th and Cicero.  The 79th bus also served Scottsdale.  The RTA buses along 79th ended at Ford City with the exception of the Cicero bus which went to Midway.  Then all suburban service in that area was truncated to Ford City until the opening of the Orange Line.  So at that time it was logical that CTA ran the service from 77th/Central on the 79th and the 54B routes.

NOW, however the 79th Pace route runs all the way to the Midway station.  It still would make sense that Pace should run the tripper.  But if CTA wants to run it and Pace is content with them running it, then so be it.

As for your Oak Park comparison, that is a bad example in that Pace doesn't duplicate L service along those lines per se (it has no trains).  Also any parallel bus service is a local service and ends at the city limits.  My understanding of the trippers is that the service ENDS at Midway, which is where the 379 ends.

Actually my Oak Park mention is not a bad comparison in relation to my larger point that near the city limits and in the border burbs, we're going to see an overlap between CTA and Pace which does make sense overall to keep connections between both as smooth as possible. There are arguments for having more coordination where those overlaps occur which they did at least make an effort toward in the case of 63W and 95W, but nitpicking over the overlaps near the city line is trivial otherwise. But getting back to the St Laurence school trippers though, the majority of the length of those trips borders the city, so that added to older wording of state law still being in place that spells out where CTA can operate and authorizes CTA to operate in the Cook County burbs, which Burbank is one such suburb, as well as Andre's point that more of the kids coming from Saint Laurence are coming back into the city than they are heading deeper into the burbs makes for an argument that CTA is just as justified in continuing to provide the trips. Now if it were a matter of CTA going into Will County or Du Page as some were giving unrealistic fantasies over with the rail services or CTA running a route exclusively in a suburb that doesn't at least border the city (i.e. the former #17) then yeah I'm right there with you. But this isn't really a glaring one or the other board encroaching on the other since both CTA and Pace have equal arguments for doing the trips rather than there being a clear one or the other should be giving the bus service. 

[orionbuslover]

On the school release times, I was looking up Lane Tech and they say something rather confusing on their site. They have two exit times one is normal 3:20PM departure and one for the LTAC students will be 4:15PM. Who is is LTAC students, incoming freshman?

http://lanetechhs.blogspot.com/2015/07/lane-tech-start-time.html

Lane has an academy for 7th & 8th graders.