Return of the X, Rapid, BRT-Lite, Limited Stop Routes (was X9, X49) Thread

[BusHunter]

Just now, Busjack said:

Not sure whether you are proposing A-B stops (like what were on the L).

Otherwise, Gene's point was that traditionally it wasn't an express if it wasn't on an expressway (although there were exceptions). Whatever you called the 77 or 79 bus, if the stopping pattern were the same as on X9 and X49, the express would have to get around the local, but Belmont and 77th between State and Stony Island are narrow and congested.

Well a limited is not an express and it doesn't need to worry about congestion although tsp might help. I propose it because these routes have ridiculous amounts of buses, #79 was counted at 33 buses, let me remind you the whole #9 is 38 buses and that's twice the length. These buses all seem to do the same thing and you have operators that will work these routes and just hang out behind the pack. If everyone has different stopping patterns it mixes that up and at the same time it's more efficient and customer friendly.

[Busjack]

35 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

These buses all seem to do the same thing

But Western is wide its entire length, and Ashland is at least 4 lanes. The streets I mentioned are not.

[BusHunter]

2 hours ago, Busjack said:

But Western is wide its entire length, and Ashland is at least 4 lanes. The streets I mentioned are not.

Not that it matters, if so how could any truck pass a bus or vice versa. What about doing that on the #66, that route has wider streets and has lots of buses also.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, BusHunter said:

. What about doing that on the #66, that route has wider streets and has lots of buses also.

That was part of the $185 million BRT grant that was lost in 2009.

[jajuan]

8 hours ago, Busjack said:

My comment was only with respect to BusHunter's contention that they will need more buses to run both the local and express. Total travel time would be relevant to X9 only needing 22 buses, not 30, but with this schedule it needs 22 (using the method of  how many lines are between when a bus leaves 95th and can get back to 95th to start another northbound trip),

The current 9 schedule makes that hard to do, because there are many "then every 8 to 21 minutes from 104th/Vincennes and every 5 to 11 minutes from 95th/Ashland until" blocks.

Speaking of frequency, that means that X9 would be more frequent than the current 9, but that doesn't indicate what 9 will be in 2 weeks. As pointed out above:

Still don't.

I realize that was the angle you were speaking on it, which is why I referred to both local and express routes. To flesh both our points out, what my post was getting at was basically if they do need more buses it's not necessarily going to be too many more while BH's contention is that they're going to need a big gang of buses to the point of not retiring more 6400s as quickly as they had been. Just considering Ashland by itself, someone else pointed out in another thread that the current route uses about 60 buses during rush hour as indicated from counting the total number of buses shown on BusTracker. You spotted that the preview schedule indicates 22 buses needed on #X9. We already have an idea that the express route reduces what's used on the local route. Add in that the updated local is expected to move buses quicker because it too will operate with fewer stops. With those factors in place, there shouldn't be a need for too many more buses on Ashland handling both routes during rush hour.

[BusHunter]

That's basically what I said, but if they even needed 10 more per route, that's 20 buses because we have two routes here. So 20-25 buses may be the local bus' magic number we are looking for, but CTA should be way overstocked, it doesn't look like too many #6400's have been retired if you go by my 11/30 list. Plus we have the #11 and #31 bus returning, so that may be even a few more spares. The only thing is if FG doesn't get #1000's all the spares it maintains is lost from the other garages, so it might be up to the #1000 spares if no #6400's leave Fg, which I doubt.

[jajuan]

On 12/13/2015 at 9:28 PM, BusHunter said:

That's basically what I said, but if they even needed 10 more per route, that's 20 buses because we have two routes here. So 20-25 buses may be the local bus' magic number we are looking for, but CTA should be way overstocked, it doesn't look like too many #6400's have been retired if you go by my 11/30 list. Plus we have the #11 and #31 bus returning, so that may be even a few more spares. The only thing is if FG doesn't get #1000's all the spares it maintains is lost from the other garages, so it might be up to the #1000 spares if no #6400's leave Fg, which I doubt.

11 and 31 aren't till the spring though so they won't have any effect until then. X9 and X49 are the two biggest changes coming in the here and now. I'm still not completely convinced that any increase in buses used on those two corridors will get that high, but we shall see in a week's time. The links on the schedule update page still aren't working to give us a clearer picture of what the locals on either corridor would be doing as of yet. But as for FG, looking at what's been going on the past year and a half, I'd be more surprised if any 6400s leave FG for anything other than retirement. 

[jajuan]

Well they're putting the notices up this morning along Ashland giving notice which stops are being eliminated on the #9 local route starting Sunday and that #X9 returns next Monday. They're also changing bus stop signs. The WB bus stop at Irving Park and Clark has been changed to reflect the X9. 

[jajuan]

Advanced timetables are now working for the local routes finally guys. And from the looks of it the locals are both going to be operating on 10-15 minute headways during rush hour while the two express routes are running and weekday off peak headways of approximately 10 minutes. In the case of the Ashland routes, from what I can tell it looks like the X9 will be handling most of the service operating to/from 95th during weekday rush periods while the 9 will be primarily be only the 104th/Vincennes trips (the local schedule shows under the weekday NB section only " then every 10 to 15 from 104th/Vincennes until:" in the AM and "then every 14 to 15 minutes from 104th/Vincennes until:" in the PM with neither showing a reference to 95th in those time periods). The link is here. 

[Busjack]

1 minute ago, jajuan said:

Advanced timetables are now working for the local routes finally guys. And from the looks of it the locals are both going to be operating on 10-15 minute headways during rush hour while the two express routes are running and weekday off peak headways of approximately 10 minutes. In the case of the Ashland routes, from what I can tell it looks like the X9 will be handling most of the service operating to/from 95th during weekday rush periods while the 9 will be primarily be only the 104th/Vincennes trips (the local schedule shows under the weekday NB section only " then every 10 to 15 from 104th/Vincennes until:" in the AM and "then every 14 to 15 minutes from 104th/Vincennes until:" in the PM with neither showing a reference to 95th in those time periods). 

You beat me to it.

The relevant comparison for 9 NB during the a.m. rush is:

every 8 to 21 minutes from 104th/Vincennes and
every 5 to 11 minutes from 95th/Ashland

P.M. rush southbound currently is:

every 6 to 7 minutes to 95th/Ashland
and every 7 to 14 minutes to 104th/Vincennes

As you indicated, the effect seems close to eliminating the 95th trips (and at least half of the buses from the local).

 

New 49 looks like about every 12-13 minutes NB during the a.m. rush, compared to 5-8 now, similarly, 12 to 15 min SB during the p.m. rush, compared to every 5 to 7 minutes on the current schedule, which indicates to me that about 2/3 of the local buses will be cut.

I'll let BusHunter do the allocation math, but I was certainly correct that they were going to cut back the locals, as they did in around 2009.

[BusHunter]

Yeah, but a 2/3 cut is not from 5 to 7 min to 12 to 15 because that would be 15 to 21, so it might be slightly more than half cut. Adding all that up half of Ashland for instance in the deep rush hour (38 buses) would be 18 buses cut in half. Busjack said the express' would require 22-25 so they might need around 10 more on each route. Sort of what I figured.  We won't really know for sure until a count is taken.

[Busjack]

9 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Yeah, but a 2/3 cut is not from 5 to 7 min to 12 to 15 because that would be 15 to 21, so it might be slightly more than half cut. ...

But now you also have to factor in jajuan's point that the trip time, and hence the number of buses, is also reduced on the locals, although the full effect is hard to tell with the blocks on the schedules.

[jajuan]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

But now you also have to factor in jajuan's point that the trip time, and hence the number of buses, is also reduced on the locals, although the full effect is hared to tell with the blocks on the schedules.

True. And that would make a need for 10 extra buses per corridor even more likely too large a cushion. It's sounding more in my mind that what was taken from the express and reinvested back into locals in 2010 is getting placed back into the expresses next week as you said when they first announced that the express Western and Ashland buses were returning during rush hour. If we factor in the faster local trip times from the reduced number of stops which wasn't the service conditions five years ago, it's fairly possible locals on Ashland for example may number closer to 30 buses if the reduced number of stops drops the total rush hour need from the current 60 that someone counted through BusTracker to say 55.

[Busjack]

To provide more research material, i downloaded the Route Progress for 9 and 49. I hope I got near the peak as there are a lot of SB 9s going to 74h. No warranty against ghost buses:

49 NB (15):

:

49 SB (15):

9 from 104th (7):

9 from 95th (8):

9 to 104th (2):

9 to 95th (7):

9 to 74th (7):

Anyway, as of this snapshot,we get 30 on 49 and 31 on 9.

[BusHunter]

On sunday, they still didn't have any new signs that I could see. Then i think I remember them saying that they want to make all stops at major intersections far side stops.

[Busjack]

3 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

On sunday, they still didn't have any new signs that I could see. Then i think I remember them saying that they want to make all stops at major intersections far side stops.

Jajuan said they were putting up notices on Ashland. Also, the far side is correct.

[BusHunter]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

To provide more research material, i downloaded the Route Progress for 9 and 49. I hope I got near the peak as there are a lot of SB 9s going to 74h. No warranty against ghost buses: Anyway, as of this snapshot,we get 30 on 49 and 31 on 9.

If it does turn out they will be using the same amount of buses for X service, I wonder why they just wouldn't bring it back to all the routes that had it. They don't have to have all the extras like tsp for it to work. Maybe they could make it something for the future.

[Busjack]

1 minute ago, BusHunter said:

If it does turn out they will be using the same amount of buses for X service, I wonder why they just wouldn't bring it back to all the routes that had it. They don't have to have all the extras like tsp for it to work. Maybe they could make it something for the future.

If it is just putting up the signs, I don't see why not. The mystery is in Carter saying that X9 and X49 are funded, but it the net is using fewer resources, I don't see why not. Of course, the TSP is RTA money.

[Tcmetro]

I also noticed that midday 49 service will be bumped to every 7-8 minutes, from every 10.

The Western/Madison NB stop was moved to the far side of the intersection. I'm sure we'll see more of these changes.

[Juniorz]

4 hours ago, BusHunter said:

On sunday, they still didn't have any new signs that I could see. Then i think I remember them saying that they want to make all stops at major intersections far side stops.

Most likely the signs will be posted on Saturday to finish out the work week

[jajuan]

6 hours ago, BusHunter said:

On sunday, they still didn't have any new signs that I could see. Then i think I remember them saying that they want to make all stops at major intersections far side stops.

 

6 hours ago, Busjack said:

Jajuan said they were putting up notices on Ashland. Also, the far side is correct.

Well on Ashland I noticed this morning that SB side signs are updated to show X9. NB hasn't been done yet. They're shared signs with 9 and X9 on one sign instead of separate signs on one pole as they had when X9 existed the first time around. And most stops on the stretch of Ashland I rode are already far side at the locations stops that will still exist for either route. They're only a few spots that they need to worry about changing to far side. Cortland of course can't be far side because of the expressway and METRA tracks crossing overhead. 

[renardo870]

Will X49 Western Express will be an all 74th route or will it be shared with NP? It would be nice to see Artics running down Western as X49.

[sw4400]

6 minutes ago, renardo870 said:

Will X49 Western Express will be an all 74th route or will it be shared with NP? It would be nice to see Artics running down Western as X49.

Because X49 goes all the way to 95th, and 74th St. Garage is located on 74th and North Park is on Foster(way up north), it would be prudent that X49 is exclusively 74th St. operated. Western is the farthest a North Park bus travels in all it's routes.

[Busjack]

21 minutes ago, sw4400 said:

Because X49 goes all the way to 95th, and 74th St. Garage is located on 74th and North Park is on Foster(way up north), it would be prudent that X49 is exclusively 74th St. operated.

You confused it with 9 Ashland. 49 and X49 only go to 79th, and the Berwyn terminal is as close to NP as the 79th terminal is to 74th.

28 minutes ago, renardo870 said:

Will X49 Western Express will be an all 74th route or will it be shared with NP? It would be nice to see Artics running down Western as X49.

Thus probably yes, but no different than 49 now.

[jajuan]

52 minutes ago, Busjack said:

You confused it with 9 Ashland. 49 and X49 only go to 79th, and the Berwyn terminal is as close to NP as the 79th terminal is to 74th.

Thus probably yes, but no different than 49 now.

And that would further cement that there shouldn't be too much a need of a big shuffle to bring both routes back. Unlike X9, X49 doesn't have garage pullins or pullouts shown on the schedule. So it just may be  NP and 74th share X49 like they do the local.