Pace Destination Signs

[Busjack]

Since the Destination Signs thread seems to have drifted over to Pace, I thought I would start one in the right place here.

Attached are a couple of pictures of the infamous 208 EASTBOUND and 208 WESTBOUND signs.

[MetroShadow]

This looks backwards to me...yeah, I know I'm going eastbound, and maybe I'm going westbound...but it was fine when it was 208 NW TRANS CTR/SCHAUMBURG and 208 DAVIS CTA/EVANSTON

On a side note, I was waiting in Oak Park for the new 90 Harlem, when a 307 came up to us. An old lady said that she couldn't read the sign, considering its now 307 HARLEM/ ELMWD PARK VH.

I know they changed it for accessibility reasons, but there has to be a different way than to shortchange the spelling of the destination signs.

[Busjack]

In that case, it wasn't accessibility, since there used to be another flip ELMWOOD PARK {flip} VILLAGE HALL.

There seems to be some effort to cut down the flips and two line signs, but it hasn't been consistently implemented for all signs. For instance, there used to be a two line sign for Moraine Valley College, but it is now MORAINE VC. Some 272 signs are still the two line GOLF MILL {over} TO HAWTHORNE, while the ones that go via the Buffalo Grove station are 272 HAWTHORNE {flip} 272 BUFFALO GROVE.

I also don't like eliminating "via," because you can't tell, for instance, whether a 250 DES PLAINES will flip to 250 O'HARE.

Finally, even though there has been some standardization, you still have that West and South divisions usually show route names, and NW and SW do not. However, I have seen some 384 RIDGELAND {flip} 384 ORLAND SQ and 386 S. HARLEM {flip} MIDWAY CTA signs. Maybe someone read here that having two lines with the same two terminii was confusing (yeah, right:D).

Maybe we'll just have to rely on "Ms. Pace."

[Guest]

In Itasca at the Itasca Metra Station at the bus stop you will find still posted Pace Route 615. What was the 615? I dont see this route on Pace's website.

[jesi2282]

#615 Itasca Industrial was a short-lived route that operated between Itasca Metra Station and the Itasca Industrial Park, the route was operated by Laidlaw under contract to Pace. #615 was discontinued in 2000.

[cta_44499_FG]

There seems to be some effort to cut down the flips and two line signs, but it hasn't been consistently implemented for all signs. For instance, there used to be a two line sign for Moraine Valley College, but it is now MORAINE VC. Some 272 signs are still the two line GOLF MILL {over} TO HAWTHORNE, while the ones that go via the Buffalo Grove station are 272 HAWTHORNE {flip} 272 BUFFALO GROVE.

This is very confusing, considering there is also a "272 GOLF MILL (flip) MILWAUKEE/DEERFIELD" reading (one trip each day ends there). You don't know if it's going to flip "TO HAWTHORNE" and if you don't look you might find yourself on a bus thinking it's going all the way and it's not. We know already not everyone thinks to check the schedule of course.

[CURRENTZ_09]

I love how pace and cta bus signs read the route name and the terminal it serves such as 62 ARCHER TO HARLEM/ARCHER VIA MIDWAY. In milwaukee MCTS just shows the final terminal 80 MATC-COLLEGE VIA AIRPORT or 12 BROWN DEER VIA 43RD which i find to be correct but confusing because users that are new to the system may not find their route as easy and then the operators are RUDE!!!!

[Wolfman]

I love how pace and cta bus signs read the route name and the terminal it serves such as 62 ARCHER TO HARLEM/ARCHER VIA MIDWAY. In milwaukee MCTS just shows the final terminal 80 MATC-COLLEGE VIA AIRPORT or 12 BROWN DEER VIA 43RD which i find to be correct but confusing because users that are new to the system may not find their route as easy and then the operators are RUDE!!!!

Coolness.

CTA adopted the standard practice of putting the route name on the headsign rollsign in 1974 with the 7400 fishbowls. Everything after that pretty much was formatted Route Number (in bold), Route Name, and Destination. If I recall right, our first digital flip dots were on a couple of Limits fishbowls (9200s) back in 1982, and they stayed true to the format, although the destination was after the flip. Over the years, they got sloppy (I know, I know), but they stayed true to that, and I too think it's a good format. You'd think Milwaukee would have gone that way.

Short story:

When the NABI 60 Ft artic was on display in Dallas at the 2005 APTA show, the sign read:

145 WILSON PICKETT EXP (flip)

145 to BROADWAY (flip)

145 FUNKY FUNKY BROADWAY

Okay. So it was funny then...

When the 1000 series New Flyers were at the plant in St. Cloud, Minnesota, again the test/demo bus had the Wilson Pickett Express reading.

Some buses just need their own soundtrack. Ow! Hit me!!

[CURRENTZ_09]

Coolness.

CTA adopted the standard practice of putting the route name on the headsign rollsign in 1974 with the 7400 fishbowls. Everything after that pretty much was formatted Route Number (in bold), Route Name, and Destination. If I recall right, our first digital flip dots were on a couple of Limits fishbowls (9200s) back in 1982, and they stayed true to the format, although the destination was after the flip. Over the years, they got sloppy (I know, I know), but they stayed true to that, and I too think it's a good format. You'd think Milwaukee would have gone that way.

Short story:

When the NABI 60 Ft artic was on display in Dallas at the 2005 APTA show, the sign read:

145 WILSON PICKETT EXP (flip)

145 to BROADWAY (flip)

145 FUNKY FUNKY BROADWAY

Okay. So it was funny then...

When the 1000 series New Flyers were at the plant in St. Cloud, Minnesota, again the test/demo bus had the Wilson Pickett Express reading.

Some buses just need their own soundtrack. Ow! Hit me!!

LMAO..................we are just getting another round of automated announcements on MCTS after that horrible TransitTV pilot in 2004-2005. I mean it's nice to know the route names but to see for example 23 Fond du Lac to Park Place via Mill Rd or 10 Humboldt-Wisconsin to Brookfield Sq it makes it seem so much easier to the customer when doing that and it also makes the Transit agency look more professional

[Busjack]

This is very confusing, considering there is also a "272 GOLF MILL (flip) MILWAUKEE/DEERFIELD" reading (one trip each day ends there).

Back to the point:

Here is also one type where the reading is ambiguous, in that you think more the cities than the Roads. Of course, a bit more confusing was the old blue sign for 220 Glenview-Waukegan. That later just became 220 Glenview, and then nonexistent.

I see your point with regard to the signs that flip intermediate points; i.e. 250 Des Plaines, which may or may not flip to 250 O'Hare 250 Kiss N Fly. There seem to be a few To Garage trips that end in Des Plaines.

[Wolfman]

Here is also one type where the reading is ambiguous, in that you think more the cities than the Roads. Of course, a bit more confusing was the old blue sign for 220 Glenview-Waukegan. That later just became 220 Glenview, and then nonexistent.

I think I have that specimen!

The RTA/Nortran Blue headsign. I'll have to look.

I think when RTA insisted on changing out to brown signs, 220 was reduced to "Glenview". I'll have a look this weekend. It'll give me something to do.

Oh yeah. I collect rollsigns.

[twyztdmynd]

Found this site for the codes to either Pace NW or NS transdot signs...

http://www.rollsigngallery.com/esigns/e034-ChicagoPACE200209xx.html

[Busjack]

Found this site for the codes to either Pace NW or NS transdot signs...

http://www.rollsigng...CE200209xx.html

Definitely NS, not NW (no 230s, 250, 270, 290), but also as it says and the signs point out 10 years old.

Update: It does explain why I did once see a bus with a Libertyville sign, and that the programming seems to correspond to route numbers (although now they would need a heck of a lot more 422 and 423 numbers).

Also, if this were the current programming pattern, it doesn't explain the P/R "Go Sox!!!," "Go Bears!!!" and "Happy Holidays from Pace" signs, since it says that the P/R digit is used to differentiate signs on the same route (i.e. 1422, 2422 for 422).

[Railwaymodeler]

Here's what I know about the signs at North Division:

80: To Garage

70: Not in Service

xxx0 Outbound from downtown (xxx = 3 digit route number)

xxx1 Inbound usually to downtown (xxx = 3 digit route number)

(This is why I joke that unit 6661 can be refused on religious grounds. As per the headsign system, the unit number can be inferred to as "Inbound to Hell". Maybe that bus does belong in Waukegan after all!)

xxx2, 3, 4, etc... generally for short turn routes, such as school trippers or the half hour at rush hour times 572, only going to CLC.

I think the 572 might be an exception to the usual system: 5720 I believe would be to CLC, 5722 I think is to Hawthorne.

This is how the old flip dot system works. Not sure if the LED system in the 6600s is the same though.

[Busjack]

Here's what I know about the signs at North Division:

...

This is how the old flip dot system works. Not sure if the LED system in the 6600s is the same though.

The page claimed that the Orion Is were Transdot. Apparently the only place one is going to see that now (except for Ravinia) is the one run between 1:30 p.m. and 3:30 p.m. on 422 to New Trier West (2349 has been on Webwatch; that is the trip that BusExpert pointed out).

I'm pretty sure that everything since then is on a Luminator controller, although at some point, Pace "dumbed down" the tall signs on the Orion VIs to match the 15 column style of the prior signs. There seem to be a few two line signs left, although it appears that 272 Golf Mill [next line] to Hawthorne has been changed to 272 Westfield (which was the more common one on North buses, although there is more than one Westfield).

Still doesn't explain the codes for the P/R sign.

Another note: It appears that the ones in the form 10XY or 00XY are the former subscription routes. For instance route 1018 (Northbrook-Chicago) was the Allstate subscription route, and 1023 the Hewitt one. Thus, at some time (before me) there must have been a subscription route 1019 to Libertyville. North Shore ran these routes, as opposed to Colonial running the Sears-Prairie Stone ones.

[MetroShadow]

P/R codes are usually independent of the main series of codes. Once a set of codes were given to all of the routes, the P/R sets would be used as an outset.

Keep in mind, too, if you had a route with multiple deviations, you'd have to be careful with the short-turns and deviations (I.e. 352 and 352X before the restructuring). 351x and 352x had to be used, AFAIK.

Now the IBS helps with the programming, with the luminator controller as a override.

[Railwaymodeler]

I think the programming panel for the 2400 series NABIs says "TwinVision". I don't know much about the flip dot systems, other than how they work in general, so far as the mechanical aspects. Much of the codes I've learned through observation, to the point I remember them better than some drivers.

Knowing the codes is handy if the IBS fails or can't pick up signal for some reason.

[Busjack]

I think the programming panel for the 2400 series NABIs says "TwinVision"....

The TwinVision ones would be like the flip dots on CTA 6400-6708, with the slow sweep from left to right as the signs change. Obviously, CTA must have some kind of common program to program the TwinVision ones on all the Novas and the Luminators on all the New Flyers.

I don't remember enough about North buses whether they have that kind of sweep, so maybe you can look out for that. Of course, the South buses usually had their signs jammed.

[Railwaymodeler]

They do have a sweep like that, sometimes it is fairly quick, sometimes a bit slower.

I've wondered how the solenoids work in them. If they are an electromagnetic coil moving a plunger, much as how Lionel solenoids in their locomotive "E-Unit" reversers, or in accessories such as semaphores, work, or if it is a stationary solenoid that magnetizes a fixed plunger (Much how the prewar automatic Lionel couplers worked).

If a plunger, I'd love to get my hands on an old flip dot sign. Got a use for about 60-80 solenoids on my model railroad. Made 10 or so, so far by hand winding a coil.

[jesi2282]

Could someone explain the difference between these two #305 southbound signs.

305 CICERO-

305 RIVER FOREST

305 MORTON COLL

and

305 MORTON COLL

305 NO FOR MALL

at first I thought "NO FOR MALL" was Pace shorthand for North Forest Mall, but I discovered there is no such thing (at least on the 305 route). During the afternoon I see 305's using both of these signs.

I've seen other Pace signs use the word "NO", like the #711 in Wheaton sometimes says "711 NO STRATFORD" or 322 school trippers say "322 NOT N RIVERSIDE"

[Busjack]

Could someone explain the difference between these two #305 southbound signs.

305 CICERO-

305 RIVER FOREST

305 MORTON COLL

and

305 MORTON COLL

305 NO FOR MALL

at first I thought "NO FOR MALL" was Pace shorthand for North Forest Mall, but I discovered there is no such thing (at least on the 305 route). During the afternoon I see 305's using both of these signs.

I've seen other Pace signs use the word "NO", like the #711 in Wheaton sometimes says "711 NO STRATFORD" or 322 school trippers say "322 NOT N RIVERSIDE"

305 signs used to say via Forest Park Mall. Pace, though, tried to abolish the word "via" around 2005.

The schedule indicates for some trips "M - Trip does not enter the Forest Park Mall. Board and exit the bus on Roosevelt Rd." That seems over by 7:45 a.m.

The 322 schedule has a legend "N - Trip will not enter the North Riverside Park Mall" and some SN entries, so that seems to check out.

I also saw the 711 signs. According to that schedule, that applies in the morning, but the ones I saw were in the afternoon and the bus did go into Stratford Square.

Thus, I have the feeling that those signs are correct, but used in error during many trips.

[Railwaymodeler]

Depending on the unit, sometimes the flip-dot signs get stuck in some amusing ways. But as it sounds like you've seen the same message on multiple occasions, I doubt it is a matter of stuck signs.

One unit here at North, the sign's first three characters, where the route number usually is, instead of the route, says "NOT", as in "NOT IN SERVICE". So while on the road, it will say something like "NOT GRAND/ NOT GURNEE MILLS", generally prompting a series of jokes from me.

Then another unit was coming from the garage to the Washington/Sheridan terminus. Instead of saying "NOT IN SERVICE", some of the flip dots stayed blank, causing it to read as "NUT IN SERVICE". I had to ask the driver if he was OK, if stress was getting to him. When he seemed puzzled enough, I told him to look at his headsign outside, as even though he was leaving as an in service vehicle, the sign still said "NUT IN SERVICE".

I'll miss the funnies from old flip dot signs!

[artthouwill]

The NO denotes that there is no service to that particular area. In the case of the 305, there are some early a.m. runs that do not serve the Forest Mall, but operate on Roosevelt. During the rest of the day, the bus served Wal-mart, then KMart. Then Wal-mart started construction to expand the store and parking area. Pace initially wasn't going to serve the mall, but decided the buses could use the northern entrance to the mall from Desplaines Ave, however, the signage was not changed back to reflect the bus still serving thr mall.

[MetroShadow]

Could someone explain the difference between these two #305 southbound signs.

305 CICERO-

305 RIVER FOREST

305 MORTON COLL

and

305 MORTON COLL

305 NO FOR MALL

at first I thought "NO FOR MALL" was Pace shorthand for North Forest Mall, but I discovered there is no such thing (at least on the 305 route). During the afternoon I see 305's using both of these signs.

I've seen other Pace signs use the word "NO", like the #711 in Wheaton sometimes says "711 NO STRATFORD" or 322 school trippers say "322 NOT N RIVERSIDE"

The bus doesn't hit the mall, as mentioned. If there are any other deviations, it [should] appear in the signs.

[Busjack]

Depending on the unit, sometimes the flip-dot signs get stuck in some amusing ways. But as it sounds like you've seen the same message on multiple occasions, I doubt it is a matter of stuck signs.

One unit here at North, the sign's first three characters, where the route number usually is, instead of the route, says "NOT", as in "NOT IN SERVICE". So while on the road, it will say something like "NOT GRAND/ NOT GURNEE MILLS", generally prompting a series of jokes from me.

....

I'll miss the funnies from old flip dot signs!

The references are pretty much to amber signs.