600-series Proterra BE40/ZX5 - Updates

[NewFlyerMCI]

42 minutes ago, rl12383 said:

This may provide some insight into how many buses were purchased, and when will they be put into service:

https://www.transitchicago.com/assets/1/6/Nov2021_-_Electric_Bus_Update_for_Board_Meeting.pdf

 

In summary:

- 8 Proterra buses will be in service by the end of this year. 17 more next year. 

- An option for 22 additional Proterra buses has NOT been executed (yet).

- Grant for 6 Nova E-buses (unclear if this grant has been executed and buses ordered).

The grant was awarded back in July and I believe the buses have been ordered. I forget how exactly, but CTA was able to bypass the competitive bidding process because of it.

I said this back in July (and if this forum had downvotes, I'm sure I'd have received some ?), but I'm fairly certain those 6 Nova LFSe's are going to 103rd. The language and specificity of the grant doesn't lead me to believe it would be 74th. Otherwise, based on where there's charging equipment, they'd both have an equal case

Overall, that presentation speaks to exactly what I was talking about in this response I just made a couple of hours ago, especially this part:

Quote

"Makes me wonder why CTA's diesel purchase was so controversial, especially when orgs like the Sierra Club are getting involved. Also goes to show people don't take the time to properly understand things. CTA has ~1000 buses they need to replace, which is over half the fleet, the current ones are not going to last past 2024, and electric technology is not so proven that an order of ~1000 can be seen as comfortably reliable, let alone be completely delivered in under 3 years."

Lot of people thinking this is a "good is the enemy of great" situation when it's not at all.

[artthouwill]

49 minutes ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

The grant was awarded back in July and I believe the buses have been ordered. I forget how exactly, but CTA was able to bypass the competitive bidding process because of it.

I said this back in July (and if this forum had downvotes, I'm sure I'd have received some ?), but I'm fairly certain those 6 Nova LFSe's are going to 103rd. The language and specificity of the grant doesn't lead me to believe it would be 74th. Otherwise, based on where there's charging equipment, they'd both have an equal case

Overall, that presentation speaks to exactly what I was talking about in this response I just made a couple of hours ago, especially this part:

Lot of people thinking this is a "good is the enemy of great" situation when it's not at all.

I don't follow the logic of 103rd receiving any electric bases in the very near future.  Someday?  YES.   But nothing leads me to believe 103rd will receive the 6 Nova e-byses.  Nothing in the CTA presser leads me to believe 103rd will receive them. The Midway charger suggests 74th and the Navy Pier charger is for the 66 and possibly the 65.  I know the 29 serves Navy Pier  but the 29 interlines with other routes at 95th, and there has been no mention of chargers at 95th.  If anything,  the 2 has a better shot because it's a rush inkt route and 77th is already equipped with a charging station. 

[YoungBusLover]

1 hour ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

The grant was awarded back in July and I believe the buses have been ordered. I forget how exactly, but CTA was able to bypass the competitive bidding process because of it.

I said this back in July (and if this forum had downvotes, I'm sure I'd have received some ?), but I'm fairly certain those 6 Nova LFSe's are going to 103rd. The language and specificity of the grant doesn't lead me to believe it would be 74th. Otherwise, based on where there's charging equipment, they'd both have an equal case

Overall, that presentation speaks to exactly what I was talking about in this response I just made a couple of hours ago, especially this part:

Lot of people thinking this is a "good is the enemy of great" situation when it's not at all.

74th is the next destination for the electric movement though. There hasn't been any evidence for 103rd to even get a sniff of the movement, they're getting nothing but #8350s in the next year or two and then maybe just maybe by 2040 they'll receive the go ahead nod for electric.

2 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

I don't follow the logic of 103rd receiving any electric bases in the very near future.  Someday?  YES.   But nothing leads me to believe 103rd will receive the 6 Nova e-byses.  Nothing in the CTA presser leads me to believe 103rd will receive them. The Midway charger suggests 74th and the Navy Pier charger is for the 66 and possibly the 65.  I know the 29 serves Navy Pier  but the 29 interlines with other routes at 95th, and there has been no mention of chargers at 95th.  If anything,  the 2 has a better shot because it's a rush inkt route and 77th is already equipped with a charging station. 

The only problem with the 2 being a candidate is the overall availability for trained operators to operate them on a consistent basis. I'll admit right now 77th doesn't have that many operators including myself that haven't been trained thoroughly on the #600s & #700s yet unless instructed to. 

[artthouwill]

4 minutes ago, YoungBusLover said:

74th is the next destination for the electric movement though. There hasn't been any evidence for 103rd to even get a sniff of the movement, they're getting nothing but #8350s in the next year or two and then maybe just maybe by 2040 they'll receive the go ahead nod for electric.

The only problem with the 2 being a candidate is the overall availability for trained operators to operate them on a consistent basis. I'll admit right now 77th doesn't have that many operators including myself that haven't been trained thoroughly on the #600s & #700s yet unless instructed to. 

I don't believe the 2 will get electrics.  I was saying that just because the 29 serves Navy Pier,  that did make 103rd a candidate for electrics.   Based on that logic, I was saying the 2 would be a better candidate.   

To be honest,  I don't think 74th ir C drivers have received any adequate training in the electrics 

[YoungBusLover]

4 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

I don't believe the 2 will get electrics.  I was saying that just because the 29 serves Navy Pier,  that did make 103rd a candidate for electrics.   Based on that logic, I was saying the 2 would be a better candidate.   

To be honest,  I don't think 74th ir C drivers have received any adequate training in the electrics 

Oh ok, I gotcha. Well as far as Chicago is concerned they have the training right next door to the garage that trains everyone from all 7 garages so I'm sure that they've attempted to train a good majority of senior operators so far. 

[NewFlyerMCI]

2 hours ago, artthouwill said:

I don't follow the logic of 103rd receiving any electric bases in the very near future.  Someday?  YES.   But nothing leads me to believe 103rd will receive the 6 Nova e-byses.  Nothing in the CTA presser leads me to believe 103rd will receive them. The Midway charger suggests 74th and the Navy Pier charger is for the 66 and possibly the 65.  I know the 29 serves Navy Pier  but the 29 interlines with other routes at 95th, and there has been no mention of chargers at 95th.  If anything,  the 2 has a better shot because it's a rush inkt route and 77th is already equipped with a charging station. 

 

2 hours ago, YoungBusLover said:

74th is the next destination for the electric movement though. There hasn't been any evidence for 103rd to even get a sniff of the movement, they're getting nothing but #8350s in the next year or two and then maybe just maybe by 2040 they'll receive the go ahead nod for electric.

The only problem with the 2 being a candidate is the overall availability for trained operators to operate them on a consistent basis. I'll admit right now 77th doesn't have that many operators including myself that haven't been trained thoroughly on the #600s & #700s yet unless instructed to. 

The reason I keep insisting 103rd is in play is because of the language the FTA themselves used when saying what the parameters for the grant were and what they said when the grant was awarded. Specifically, 

Quote

The Chicago Transit Authority (CTA) will receive nearly $7 million to purchase battery electric buses and charging equipment, upgrade its Southside bus depot and provide workforce training. The electric buses will replace CTA's oldest diesel buses and reduce greenhouse gases in communities that have experienced air pollution and other environmental health hazards, improving public health and quality of life.

103rd is solidly south side, unlike 74th which can be debated (I personally consider it SW, but that'll vary for everybody, I acknowledge that isn't a solid defense) and the area around 103rd is all factory and industrial, on a much larger scale than around 74th, which is mostly warehouses and train tracks. The communities around 103rd are at much greater risk for and have suffered longer under, the air pollution and other environmental health hazards, the same can't really be said for 74th.

As I said in July, I'm happy to be wrong, and if the order were for just buses, I'd be inclined to say 74th has the better chance of receiving the Nova LSFe's, but since charging equipment and training is coming with, that's everything to get 103rd off the ground.

[artthouwill]

10 minutes ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

 

The reason I keep insisting 103rd is in play is because of the language the FTA themselves used when saying what the parameters for the grant were and what they said when the grant was awarded. Specifically, 

103rd is solidly south side, unlike 74th which can be debated (I personally consider it SW, but that'll vary for everybody, I acknowledge that isn't a solid defense) and the area around 103rd is all factory and industrial, on a much larger scale than around 74th, which is mostly warehouses and train tracks. The communities around 103rd are at much greater risk for and have suffered longer under, the air pollution and other environmental health hazards, the same can't really be said for 74th.

As I said in July, I'm happy to be wrong, and if the order were for just buses, I'd be inclined to say 74th has the better chance of receiving the Nova LSFe's, but since charging equipment and training is coming with, that's everything to get 103rd off the ground.

I consider 74th garage a South Side garage.  I considered Archer garage a SW Side garage.  The Orange Line is a SW Side train route.   I still consider 64th the next garage to get electrics. 

While you are free to debate whether 74th is South or SW, you cannot deny that 77th is South Side.  66th has been home to 700 and 701  and can use electrics with the garage at the center of its core service area .  Plus it gas the added benefit of being in property with South Shops.  It is located in a residential area which is more affected by pollution than anyone near 74th and 103rd combined. 

As an aside, if you consider 74th as SW, then you also have to consider 193rd SE *( which i don't) .  1600E  isn't different from 1900W.  Therforw by your own reasoning  103rd isn't a viable option.

[NewFlyerMCI]

59 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

I consider 74th garage a South Side garage.  I considered Archer garage a SW Side garage.  The Orange Line is a SW Side train route.   I still consider 64th the next garage to get electrics. 

While you are free to debate whether 74th is South or SW, you cannot deny that 77th is South Side.  66th has been home to 700 and 701  and can use electrics with the garage at the center of its core service area .  Plus it gas the added benefit of being in property with South Shops.  It is located in a residential area which is more affected by pollution than anyone near 74th and 103rd combined. 

As an aside, if you consider 74th as SW, then you also have to consider 193rd SE *( which i don't) .  1600E  isn't different from 1900W.  Therforw by your own reasoning  103rd isn't a viable option.

77th by itself might be a polluting factor, but certainly not to degree in relation to where 103rd and that whole Calumet area is regarding those surrounding neighborhoods. 77th is by itself, 103rd is with a collection of other factories and what not, which has a larger impact imo, despite being located farther from any homes than 77th is. I also didn't consider 77th since buses would have to return to the garage to charge instead of being able to benefit from layover charging, unless they were on the 2 like you said earlier.

My definition of the soutside is everything south of Roosevelt and east of Ashland, and as my grandmother said, whatever the hell Hegewisch is doing. Like I said, that's definitely personal bias coming thru and it definitely holds no weight. Ultimately, we'll see where they go.

[YoungBusLover]

Oh I know exactly where they're going and it isn't 103rd anytime soon.??? 

[Sam92]

2 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

77th by itself might be a polluting factor, but certainly not to degree in relation to where 103rd and that whole Calumet area is regarding those surrounding neighborhoods. 77th is by itself, 103rd is with a collection of other factories and what not, which has a larger impact imo, despite being located farther from any homes than 77th is. I also didn't consider 77th since buses would have to return to the garage to charge instead of being able to benefit from layover charging, unless they were on the 2 like you said earlier.

My definition of the soutside is everything south of Roosevelt and east of Ashland, and as my grandmother said, whatever the hell Hegewisch is doing. Like I said, that's definitely personal bias coming thru and it definitely holds no weight. Ultimately, we'll see where they go.

 

3 hours ago, artthouwill said:

I consider 74th garage a South Side garage.  I considered Archer garage a SW Side garage.  The Orange Line is a SW Side train route.   I still consider 64th the next garage to get electrics. 

While you are free to debate whether 74th is South or SW, you cannot deny that 77th is South Side.  66th has been home to 700 and 701  and can use electrics with the garage at the center of its core service area .  Plus it gas the added benefit of being in property with South Shops.  It is located in a residential area which is more affected by pollution than anyone near 74th and 103rd combined. 

As an aside, if you consider 74th as SW, then you also have to consider 193rd SE *( which i don't) .  1600E  isn't different from 1900W.  Therforw by your own reasoning  103rd isn't a viable option.

74th, 77th and 103rd are all technically south side garages by both location and service area. 103rd is primarily Red Line feeder and commute based routes, 74th and 77th handle crosstown travel/trunk service across the south side. 74th just happened to be the only garage that had space to take on the midway routes along with a few routes to interline. Archer was the only true southwest garage by route assignment, the southwest routes from midway had to be rehooked to some 74th runs after they archer since it’s an outright pain to pull-in and pull-out from midway in any cost efficient manner. That’s the real reason why we had to decrowd 2 years later to simplify and clear out the remainder of archers “deadweight” (129, 122, 123 etc) 

[NewFlyerMCI]

On 11/24/2021 at 10:01 PM, YoungBusLover said:

Oh I know exactly where they're going and it isn't 103rd anytime soon.??? 

Well, are you allowed to fill us in? That would settle it ?

[YoungBusLover]

#621-#622 arrived at SS earlier this week.

[NovaBusFan]

On 12/3/2021 at 3:35 PM, YoungBusLover said:

#621-#622 arrived at SS earlier this week.

Yessirrr

[BusHunter]

On 11/24/2021 at 2:32 PM, artthouwill said:

I don't follow the logic of 103rd receiving any electric bases in the very near future.  Someday?  YES.   But nothing leads me to believe 103rd will receive the 6 Nova e-byses.  Nothing in the CTA presser leads me to believe 103rd will receive them. The Midway charger suggests 74th and the Navy Pier charger is for the 66 and possibly the 65.  I know the 29 serves Navy Pier  but the 29 interlines with other routes at 95th, and there has been no mention of chargers at 95th.  If anything,  the 2 has a better shot because it's a rush inkt route and 77th is already equipped with a charging station. 

I would have to agree. There is supposed to be 6 garage charging stations, so if all e buses went to 103rd. They would have charging stations at all the other garages but no buses. It sounds to me like each garage would get at least one bus. Staff cant learn anything if there is no bus.

[NewFlyerMCI]

56 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

I would have to agree. There is supposed to be 6 garage charging stations, so if all e buses went to 103rd. They would have charging stations at all the other garages but no buses. It sounds to me like each garage would get at least one bus. Staff cant learn anything if there is no bus.

This wouldn’t be a likely scenario either. Kedzie, 74th, Chicago and 77th are the only garages with charging equipment, 77th and Chicago with 2 chargers each and 74th and Kedzie with 1 each. Since this grant comes with funding for charging equipment, sure, maybe NP & FG (and 103rd) would get that, but it still wouldn’t make sense to spread out the buses, since Chicago, 74th, 77th, Kedzie and 103rd are the only garages with routes that can use the existing layover chargers. Additionally, CTA for the most part, has kept the electric buses together, with all the 600s at Chicago, and the 700s at Kedzie or 77th together, even if one or both weren’t in service. Where ever these 6 Novabuses do go, they’ll probably stick together.

[BusHunter]

16 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

This wouldn’t be a likely scenario either. Kedzie, 74th, Chicago and 77th are the only garages with charging equipment, 77th and Chicago with 2 chargers each and 74th and Kedzie with 1 each. Since this grant comes with funding for charging equipment, sure, maybe NP & FG (and 103rd) would get that, but it still wouldn’t make sense to spread out the buses, since Chicago, 74th, 77th, Kedzie and 103rd are the only garages with routes that can use the existing layover chargers. Additionally, CTA for the most part, has kept the electric buses together, with all the 600s at Chicago, and the 700s at Kedzie or 77th together, even if one or both weren’t in service. Where ever these 6 Novabuses do go, they’ll probably stick together.

They are still in the experimental stage though so what I said makes sense. Its how I would do it. What good is a big order of electric buses if you dont know if you can put it at "X" garage? 

As the electric fleet grows, it will have a more heavier need for recharging at the garages. In the cold like today, the batteries are discharging as they sit. So 2 chargers will not help a fleet of 30 buses. Eventually, they are gonna have to look at charging equipment in each stall. For starters though a couple buses here and there is the way to go. 

Maybe in the future, the buses may come with generators to charge themselves. Its ingenious and you dont need infrastructure at the garages. The Ford F-150 electric truck is going to have this but it is advertised as a generator for your house but why not use it in a charging application. Maybe we'll find out more when the truck actually comes out. 

[YoungBusLover]

4 hours ago, BusHunter said:

They are still in the experimental stage. Though so what I said makes sense. Its how I would do it. What good is a big order of electric buses if you dont know if you can put it at "X" garage? 

As the electric fleet grows, it will have a more heavier need for recharging at the garages. In the cold like today, the batteries are discharging as they sit. So 2 chargers will not help a fleet of 30 buses. Eventually, they are gonna have to look at charging equipment in each stall. For starters though a couple buses here and there is the way to go. 

Maybe in the future, the buses may come with generators to charge themselves. Its ingenious and you dont need infrastructure at the garages. The Ford F-150 electric truck is going to have this but it is advertised as a generator for your house but why not use it in a charging application. Maybe we'll find out more when the truck actually comes out. 

In order for the electric fleet to have the necessary equipment for charging at each garage there will have to be expansions and rebuilds completes first. 77th would be first since it's the oldest and also has the most space to accommodate any sized fleet for storage and or maintenance. FG and NP would fall in line next since they're both outdoor garages that would need to become fully indoor for future electric fleets. The other 3 garages would just need light modifications. The power grid needs an obvious upgrade and overhaul before CTA can do anything drastic but that's decade's down the road.

[NewFlyerMCI]

10 minutes ago, YoungBusLover said:

In order for the electric fleet to have the necessary equipment for charging at each garage there will have to be expansions and rebuilds completes first. 77th would be first since it's the oldest and also has the most space to accommodate any sized fleet for storage and or maintenance. FG and NP would fall in line next since they're both outdoor garages that would need to become fully indoor for future electric fleets. The other 3 garages would just need light modifications. The power grid needs an obvious upgrade and overhaul before CTA can do anything drastic but that's decade's down the road.

Not sure if it has to be completely indoor or just covered. King County is building a massive 120-bus charging area and I don't think it's covered.

4 hours ago, BusHunter said:

What good is a big order of electric buses if you dont know if you can put it at "X" garage?

CTA does know which garages they can put them at though? They also know not to order big since they don't have the charging facilities for a huge fleet. With this logic, CTA should've never made a big purchase of artics if they couldn't put them at "x" garage, since 74th & FG can't hold them.

[BusHunter]

All this talk of charging makes me wonder how np gets away with using plug in hybrids. Its outside. 

Pace is going to have 50 something electric buses. I wonder how it intends to charge all its buses? Rotate buses through the charger? Plus with cta its taken years just to get 2 towers in operation. Midway is still not in use. Pace is probably going to be the prototype charging setup around here at least on a megabus scale.. Hopefully it all works out because North wont have diesels to fall back on like cta will. 

[artthouwill]

7 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

Not sure if it has to be completely indoor or just covered. King County is building a massive 120-bus charging area and I don't think it's covered.

CTA does know which garages they can put them at though? They also know not to order big since they don't have the charging facilities for a huge fleet. With this logic, CTA should've never made a big purchase of artics if they couldn't put them at "x" garage, since 74th & FG can't hold them.

Plugs are primarily used to keep the diesel engines warm enough to start in cold weather like we had this morning.   Diesels tend not to start when left off in below freezing temps outdoors.   That's why the 6000 series Flxbles were sent to FG because they had the plug in heater that the 5300s didn't.   I don't know if CTA has any plans for replacing or rebuilding the 2 outdoor garages.

That said, chargers for the electrics need to be indoors at the garages.  Do the chargers at Chicago and Austin, Midway,  and Navy Pier have covers over them to protect against icing?  What about the top of the buses?  If ice develops there, will contact be made or missed with the charging units ?  I wonder how NYMTA deals with this. 

[BusHunter]

https://www.dailybulletin.com/2021/09/08/mechanical-problems-with-early-electric-buses-plague-multiple-transit-agencies/

Here is an interesting read about some of the problems with electric buses as they age. Got to wonder if some of this might have affected the 700s. They are aging.

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, BusHunter said:

https://www.dailybulletin.com/2021/09/08/mechanical-problems-with-early-electric-buses-plague-multiple-transit-agencies/

Here is an interesting read about some of the problems with electric buses as they age. Got to wonder if some of this might have affected the 700s. They are aging.

You need to send a copy to CTA, PACE   and the Sierra Club. 

[Sam92]

13 hours ago, artthouwill said:

You need to send a copy to CTA, PACE   and the Sierra Club. 

 

14 hours ago, BusHunter said:

https://www.dailybulletin.com/2021/09/08/mechanical-problems-with-early-electric-buses-plague-multiple-transit-agencies/

Here is an interesting read about some of the problems with electric buses as they age. Got to wonder if some of this might have affected the 700s. They are aging.

Good point on how the FTA is a bit heavy handed in regulations. I think they need to not rush this electric bus thing and spread out commuter patterns outside of the typical rush hours cause that right there could reduce pollution a bit by not having so many people trying to get around within the same 3 hour time frames in the morning and afternoon causing traffic and idling vehicles 

[NewFlyerMCI]

20 hours ago, artthouwill said:

That said, chargers for the electrics need to be indoors at the garages.  Do the chargers at Chicago and Austin, Midway,  and Navy Pier have covers over them to protect against icing?  What about the top of the buses?  If ice develops there, will contact be made or missed with the charging units ?  I wonder how NYMTA deals with this.

I've yet to actually see the one at Navy Pier, so I can't speak to that. The one at Midway is attached to the canopy covering the buses. I think the one at Chicago/Austin has "cover", insofar as that it's a tall pylon with the drop down charger attached.

MTA actually has an unrelated problem with one of it's chargers being the frequent target of car crashes (~3 times in 1-2 years) despite being located on bus turnaround property 

[NewFlyerMCI]

19 hours ago, BusHunter said:

https://www.dailybulletin.com/2021/09/08/mechanical-problems-with-early-electric-buses-plague-multiple-transit-agencies/

Here is an interesting read about some of the problems with electric buses as they age. Got to wonder if some of this might have affected the 700s. They are aging.

 

17 hours ago, artthouwill said:

You need to send a copy to CTA, PACE   and the Sierra Club. 

Lol, this article is actually relevant to part of my work, sent it right along to my supervisor ?