600-series Proterra BE40/ZX5 - Updates

[NewFlyerMCI]

4 hours ago, Sam92 said:

 

Good point on how the FTA is a bit heavy handed in regulations. I think they need to not rush this electric bus thing and spread out commuter patterns outside of the typical rush hours cause that right there could reduce pollution a bit by not having so many people trying to get around within the same 3 hour time frames in the morning and afternoon causing traffic and idling vehicles 

12 yr minimum use isn't exactly heavy-handed. I just think when the regulations were devised, no one was accounting for electric buses, which weren't really on the market then. It's not unreasonable to mandate a certain number of years in service if federal funds are being used, especially since most buses go beyond that. I think lowering the requirement to 10 or 8 years should suffice.

[artthouwill]

5 hours ago, Sam92 said:

 

Good point on how the FTA is a bit heavy handed in regulations. I think they need to not rush this electric bus thing and spread out commuter patterns outside of the typical rush hours cause that right there could reduce pollution a bit by not having so many people trying to get around within the same 3 hour time frames in the morning and afternoon causing traffic and idling vehicles 

I don't know if a massive lifestyle change is feasible.   Downtown business hours are pretty standard.   So are school hours.   I wonder if there are examples of spread out work schedules in foreign countries?  The problem is that this particular country is heavily car dependent while the rest of the world makes better use of public transport.   It used to amaze me how many foreigners at O'Hare were willing to take the Blue line Downtown.   Only New York City is more dependent on public transit than cars in this country and traffic in NYC is still gridlocked there. 

[Sam92]

1 hour ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

12 yr minimum use isn't exactly heavy-handed. I just think when the regulations were devised, no one was accounting for electric buses, which weren't really on the market then. It's not unreasonable to mandate a certain number of years in service if federal funds are being used, especially since most buses go beyond that. I think lowering the requirement to 10 or 8 years should suffice.

That’s what I was getting at. I know setting a minibus ok hut I read the part of the article that said “we’re being punished for trying to figure out this situation in order to meet our goal of zero emissions by 2030” and apparently they have to give money back which is a bit messed up. 

[BusHunter]

3 hours ago, artthouwill said:

I don't know if a massive lifestyle change is feasible.   Downtown business hours are pretty standard.   So are school hours.   I wonder if there are examples of spread out work schedules in foreign countries?  The problem is that this particular country is heavily car dependent while the rest of the world makes better use of public transport.   It used to amaze me how many foreigners at O'Hare were willing to take the Blue line Downtown.   Only New York City is more dependent on public transit than cars in this country and traffic in NYC is still gridlocked there. 

Thats cause all the bridges and tunnels in manhattan are heavily tolled. When I went there it was like 15 bucks to cross the river. The only way to cheaply cross is cross from upstate ny or take a PATH train. Plus isnt there congestion charging in the rush periods if traveling by auto? 

You know one thing the article above very lightly mentions is the use of fuel buses so I pulled up an article on the feasability and lifecycle. Fuel cell has the advantage of no infrastructure needed other than a hydrogen tank and fuel. It would be interesting if a small operator like Pace would explore this. The article claims bus prices are falling. Cta can testify to this bus experiment having ran the 5900 ballard buses. I think the buses were just too expensive for them to run. I wonder what ever happened to the hydrogen tanks at chicago and possibly ss. 

https://www.nrel.gov/state-local-tribal/blog/posts/fuel-cell-electric-buses-in-the-usa.html

[NewFlyerMCI]

4 hours ago, Sam92 said:

That’s what I was getting at. I know setting a minibus ok hut I read the part of the article that said “we’re being punished for trying to figure out this situation in order to meet our goal of zero emissions by 2030” and apparently they have to give money back which is a bit messed up. 

Yeah, I think the only way they wouldn't have paid any money back is if Proterra said something or serious fault was found with the buses. CTA didn't have to pay the feds back for the 7500's right?

[NewFlyerMCI]

1 hour ago, BusHunter said:

Thats cause all the bridges and tunnels in manhattan are heavily tolled. When I went there it was like 15 bucks to cross the river. The only way to cheaply cross is cross from upstate ny or take a PATH train. Plus isnt there congestion charging in the rush periods if traveling by auto?

I think the congestion pricing is being worked on, but not in place yet. I forget that you need to pay to enter Manhattan from NJ  since I'm so used to arriving via bus or train. PANYNJ controls the Hudson river crossings (Holland tunnel, Lincoln tunnel and GWB bridge), MTA controls all the other bridges and tunnels in the region. PANYNJ needs to raise the tolls.

[Sam92]

5 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

Yeah, I think the only way they wouldn't have paid any money back is if Proterra said something or serious fault was found with the buses. CTA didn't have to pay the feds back for the 7500's right?

I don’t think so but even then they went through hell to get off the hook for the NABIs so they sat at 103rd for some years before they could either scrap them for funds or something else

[Sam92]

14 hours ago, artthouwill said:

I don't know if a massive lifestyle change is feasible.   Downtown business hours are pretty standard.   So are school hours.   I wonder if there are examples of spread out work schedules in foreign countries?  The problem is that this particular country is heavily car dependent while the rest of the world makes better use of public transport.   It used to amaze me how many foreigners at O'Hare were willing to take the Blue line Downtown.   Only New York City is more dependent on public transit than cars in this country and traffic in NYC is still gridlocked there. 

You’re right about the lifestyle change and downtown hours but we have some rather vestigial transit structures that force that (mainly our spoke and hub rail set up all going in and out of downtown. There’s a lot of reverse commute opportunities and off peak stuff here that people jsut rather drive, Uber or not bother with at all because cta killed what was somewhat of a decent set off peak travel options (the X routes) but yet kept anything that favored the rush hours or a core trunk into downtown. Heck I’m sure we could’ve came up with a more fair decrowding plan here than the guys at northwestern. 

[NewFlyerMCI]

3 hours ago, Sam92 said:

You’re right about the lifestyle change and downtown hours but we have some rather vestigial transit structures that force that (mainly our spoke and hub rail set up all going in and out of downtown. There’s a lot of reverse commute opportunities and off peak stuff here that people jsut rather drive, Uber or not bother with at all because cta killed what was somewhat of a decent set off peak travel options (the X routes) but yet kept anything that favored the rush hours or a core trunk into downtown. Heck I’m sure we could’ve came up with a more fair decrowding plan here than the guys at northwestern. 

CTA doesn't really have hub and spoke though, not to the extent that other major transit systems do. The rail is certainly set up like that, but that's not really reflected in our bus system, CTA adheres to the grid too much and transit/transfer centers (be it standalone or attached to a train station) are not many in number. 

With the suburbanization of a lot of jobs that are worked by low-income people who tend to rely on transit the most (warehousing, factory work, etc), I'd actually argue Metra & Pace impact reverse commute options more than CTA. CTA doesn't have a lot of peak direction only routes, and when they do, they're either in areas that make sense and/or there are alternative options if those routes aren't running (actual decent alternatives). From the south side, I can get out to Evanston at 6a in the morning, or out to Midway at 7a, or Jeff Pk at around the same times, all using CTA. 

CTA doesn't even have bad off-peak or weekend service. 79.3% of all bus service runs every day of the week (excluding X98, 10, 128, 19, 169 & 192). This rises to 83.3% if you only do Mon-Sat. And a lot of the routes not running are those peak-direction routes No route has headways worse than every ~25 mins, any day out the week. I have routes running by my place in Philly that are every 45-70 mins at any time not rush hour lol and I'm in the city, a 20 min train ride from downtown

[artthouwill]

2 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

CTA doesn't really have hub and spoke though, not to the extent that other major transit systems do. The rail is certainly set up like that, but that's not really reflected in our bus system, CTA adheres to the grid too much and transit/transfer centers (be it standalone or attached to a train station) are not many in number. 

With the suburbanization of a lot of jobs that are worked by low-income people who tend to rely on transit the most (warehousing, factory work, etc), I'd actually argue Metra & Pace impact reverse commute options more than CTA. CTA doesn't have a lot of peak direction only routes, and when they do, they're either in areas that make sense and/or there are alternative options if those routes aren't running (actual decent alternatives). From the south side, I can get out to Evanston at 6a in the morning, or out to Midway at 7a, or Jeff Pk at around the same times, all using CTA. 

CTA doesn't even have bad off-peak or weekend service. 79.3% of all bus service runs every day of the week (excluding X98, 10, 128, 19, 169 & 192). This rises to 83.3% if you only do Mon-Sat. And a lot of the routes not running are those peak-direction routes No route has headways worse than every ~25 mins, any day out the week. I have routes running by my place in Philly that are every 45-70 mins at any time not rush hour lol and I'm in the city, a 20 min train ride from downtown

Sometimes we don't know how good we have it in Chicago until we go other places.   But with the pandemic,  I think even CTA workers take it for granted.   Some drivers call off figuring they are just ibe person, not realizing  (or caring) that several people are thinking the same thing. 

How this affects the 600s?  I don't know. 

[NewFlyerMCI]

10 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

Sometimes we don't know how good we have it in Chicago until we go other places.   But with the pandemic,  I think even CTA workers take it for granted.   Some drivers call off figuring they are just ibe person, not realizing  (or caring) that several people are thinking the same thing. 

How this affects the 600s?  I don't know. 

I think this originally stemmed from the fact that one of the benefits of electric buses is sharp emissions reductions, but @Sam92 pointed out that de-emphasizing the peak commute and having more commuting options via transit (such as enabling reverse commuting) would also help achieve this goal, thereby lessening the stress of getting the electric buses and infrastructure in place.

I was pointing out that Chicago's in a pretty good place for that (we're in a position where more emphasis on crosstown transit is needed rather than reverse commute and unlike other agencies, there's not a lot of severe drop-off btwn peak and off-peak and/or peak and wknd service), so the onus is really on Pace & Metra to enable this (UPN's 30 min off-peak headways is a great start, for example)

[Sam92]

32 minutes ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

I think this originally stemmed from the fact that one of the benefits of electric buses is sharp emissions reductions, but @Sam92 pointed out that de-emphasizing the peak commute and having more commuting options via transit (such as enabling reverse commuting) would also help achieve this goal, thereby lessening the stress of getting the electric buses and infrastructure in place.

I was pointing out that Chicago's in a pretty good place for that (we're in a position where more emphasis on crosstown transit is needed rather than reverse commute and unlike other agencies, there's not a lot of severe drop-off btwn peak and off-peak and/or peak and wknd service), so the onus is really on Pace & Metra to enable this (UPN's 30 min off-peak headways is a great start, for example)

The drop off isn’t severe but if you’re not going downtown during peak travel periods and instead going across town as you said those type of trips discourage bus rides when you have to transfer more than once and people might want to Uber and that’s more cars on the road instead of buses. I passed up on a lot of jobs that might have guaranteed me because they involved crosstown travel. May not be a major shift but little bits of things like that count along with making what you already have move faster and carry more people which will also attract more riders. Heck you’ve suggested route changes that could help that like when you said combine 43/44 or rerouting 30 down east 83rd. 

[NewFlyerMCI]

All the proterras have been delivered, ahead of schedule apparently. Last of them should be in service before spring is over.

[artthouwill]

3 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

All the proterras have been delivered, ahead of schedule apparently. Last of them should be in service before spring is over.

Do you mean the first 25 or all 45?

[Mr.NewFlyer1051]

16 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

Do you mean the first 25 or all 45?

so we waiting on 20 more?

[BusHunter]

2 hours ago, Mr.NewFlyer1051 said:

so we waiting on 20 more?

There is an option for 20 more. Dont know if cta executed that or not.

[YoungBusLover]

3 hours ago, BusHunter said:

There is an option for 20 more. Dont know if cta executed that or not.

I hope they didn't.

[BusHunter]

6 hours ago, YoungBusLover said:

I hope they didn't.

If they just wait 6 nova electrics will be coming. Funny 6 buses again sounds like another pilot. They need to see which bus runs the best and buy that. Like my links above state though it will probably end up the buses will be hard to fix due to lack of parts due to an evolving tech. I think all these electrics may end up with the fate like the 900s had unfortunately. I wouldn't buy too many buses could be a money pit. 

[NewFlyerMCI]

14 hours ago, artthouwill said:

Do you mean the first 25 or all 45?

The first of the proterras, I have no word on whether the second option has been exercised

[NewFlyerMCI]

2 hours ago, BusHunter said:

If they just wait 6 nova electrics will be coming. Funny 6 buses again sounds like another pilot. They need to see which bus runs the best and buy that. Like my links above state though it will probably end up the buses will be hard to fix due to lack of parts due to an evolving tech. I think all these electrics may end up with the fate like the 900s had unfortunately. I wouldn't buy too many buses could be a money pit. 

Even if it was unintentional, it basically is a pilot. CTA will be the first American agency to use these buses, and only the second to use it for more than a trail basis. However, for Novabus at least, CTA is a great place to start, since I'm fairly certain they're the 2nd largest Novabus fleet in America, if not all of North America.

That second point is a really great point, Foothill Transit in CA has these issues with their proterras (one of the first orders)

[Sam92]

6 minutes ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

Even if it was unintentional, it basically is a pilot. CTA will be the first American agency to use these buses, and only the second to use it for more than a trail basis. However, for Novabus at least, CTA is a great place to start, since I'm fairly certain they're the 2nd largest Novabus fleet in America, if not all of North America.

That second point is a really great point, Foothill Transit in CA has these issues with their proterras (one of the first orders)

I thought nyc was the nova king. 

[NewFlyerMCI]

Just now, Sam92 said:

I thought nyc was the nova king. 

I did say 2nd largest. NYC only wins through sheer fleet size

[Sam92]

Just now, NewFlyerMCI said:

I did say 2nd largest. NYC only wins through sheer fleet size

Yeah i know you said 2nd lol. We might be first depending on how many flyers get replaced with Novas. 

[BusHunter]

47 minutes ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

Even if it was unintentional, it basically is a pilot. CTA will be the first American agency to use these buses, and only the second to use it for more than a trail basis. However, for Novabus at least, CTA is a great place to start, since I'm fairly certain they're the 2nd largest Novabus fleet in America, if not all of North America.

That second point is a really great point, Foothill Transit in CA has these issues with their proterras (one of the first orders)

Yeah with proterra changing models, I already say #600-#605 are going to have this problem first. As they move into the new model, the product support will slowly fade for the older ones. I dont know if its possible to update the tech, but in a way the #700's did just that very thing. The fact that they are not running is distressing. They are around 7 or 8 years old, they are almost to the 9 or 10 year mark. I just hope new flyer is not getting the cold shoulder because of that. The only thing they are guilty of is having an older electric bus to help maintain. In 10 years Proterra may be in the same boat. 

Agencies like Pace are definitely at a crossroads. What they slate to happen will exceed what cta has done and they havent even piloted the first bus!! At least cta has an idea of what they face. Thats why Pace should just get the cngs, they will be thanking themselves in the future. Technologies like fuel cells are getting cheaper and you dont have to have towers all over town. Other avenues should be explored. Just dont put your eggs in one basket. Anyone buying electric should have the mindset that the buses may only last 9 or 10 years however. Dont know of thst makes them worth it or not. 

[NewFlyerMCI]

1 hour ago, Sam92 said:

Yeah i know you said 2nd lol. We might be first depending on how many flyers get replaced with Novas. 

By my count, NYC has enough Novas alone to account for at least 3/4ths of CTA's entire fleet (not counting the 6400s), it would take a lot of buses to make up that distance