EX-CN&W Pullman RTA cars in California

[chitowndude84]

Not sure if this has been posted before ? But somehow a few EX-RTA/CN&W cars have ended all the way in California

 

One of them is car # 7774,  7700 pullman series 

 

Weird seeing these Chicago out the desert lol

 

$100 says METRA desperate to save $$$ would still reclaim these, Clorox, Slap some METRA logos and put them back in service HA HA

 

 

 

 

[artthouwill]

Great video.  The narrator correctly identified the cars as Metra, but incorrectly said it was from Mexico.

[Pace831]

Those are on the Carrizo Gorge Railway which has a fascinating history. The Metra cars have been there since at least 2007. They are, in order: 7773, 7779, 8728, 7774, 7784. The reason they are there is a mystery, but there was speculation that they were for a commuter train between Tijuana and Tecate, Mexico, or for a tourist train through the gorge. The cars derailed in 2015 in a suspicious incident. Over the next few years they became heavily covered in graffiti as their location became more widely publicized on the Internet. In 2018 they were rerailed as Baja Rail works to rebuild the line.

[richii0909]

1 hour ago, Pace831 said:

Those are on the Carrizo Gorge Railway which has a fascinating history. The Metra cars have been there since at least 2009. They are, in order: 7773, 7779, unknown cab (8715?), 7774, 7784. The reason they are there is a mystery, but there was speculation that they were for a commuter train between Tijuana and Tecate, Mexico, or for a tourist train through the gorge. The cars derailed in 2015 in a suspicious incident. Over the next few years they became heavily covered in graffiti as their location became more widely publicized on the Internet. In 2018 they were retailed as Baja Rail works to rebuild the line.

Yeah it appears the railroad line went out of service in 2008 and these metra cars were on the spur/siding parked. It appears that someone in 2015 decided to free the cars and let them roll down the spur on to the main line. When the first trucks passed through the switch, someone then flipped the switch and then all the cars started to roll in reverse derailing the first car.. Whats not clear is who stripped the cars of brakes etc....

[Pace831]

Just now, richii0909 said:

Yeah it appears the railroad line went out of service in 2008 and these metra cars were on the spur/siding parked. It appears that someone in 2015 decided to free the cars and let them roll down the spur on to the main line. When the first trucks passed through the switch, someone then flipped the switch and then all the cars started to roll in reverse derailing the first car.. Whats not clear is who stripped the cars of brakes etc....

That’s not quite how it happened. The spur runs downhill from the main, and the switch was aligned for the main. Someone must have brought equipment to pull the first truck past the misaligned switch. Then the cars were released and the truck rolled the opposite direction through the switch, so the lead truck was on the main while the rest of the wheels were still on the siding. At the time it was speculated that this was an intentional act to block the mainline. This railroad line has been entangled in allegations of fraud and cover-ups, and the full story that might explain the motive has never really been revealed.

[richii0909]

2 hours ago, Pace831 said:

That’s not quite how it happened. The spur runs downhill from the main, and the switch was aligned for the main. Someone must have brought equipment to pull the first truck past the misaligned switch. Then the cars were released and the truck rolled the opposite direction through the switch, so the lead truck was on the main while the rest of the wheels were still on the siding. At the time it was speculated that this was an intentional act to block the mainline. This railroad line has been entangled in allegations of fraud and cover-ups, and the full story that might explain the motive has never really been revealed.

Yeah it’s a crazy tail with many twists in the story. There’s no telling the motive to what and why.... but how hard is it to fix this situation? I mean trains derail and crash and anything could get fixed or corrected... so what’s the point to burn some money for who ever.. just curious not to familiar with this track or it’s value of interest 

[Pace831]

16 hours ago, richii0909 said:

Yeah it’s a crazy tail with many twists in the story. There’s no telling the motive to what and why.... but how hard is it to fix this situation? I mean trains derail and crash and anything could get fixed or corrected... so what’s the point to burn some money for who ever.. just curious not to familiar with this track or it’s value of interest 

The line is owned by the San Diego Metropolitan Transit System (MTS). It was operated by the Carrizo Gorge Railway (CZRY) from 2004 until 2008 when the line was embargoed. The MTS leased the operating rights to a new company called Pacific Imperial Railroad (PIR) in 2012. By most accounts, PIR never intended to operate trains, only to collect enough money from investors to pad their pockets  while making the lease payment. After PIR ended up in bankruptcy court in 2017, the Baja California Railroad took over their lease.

One theory for the derailment could be that PIR thought their investment fraud scheme was going to get them in trouble soon. They had collected plenty of money but had not yet made any tangible improvements to the railroad. So, they staged the derailment so they’d have a seemingly legitimate excuse to say “we need more money”.

According to this post on Trainorders.com, CZRY had purchased 11 Metra cars. 3 are (were?) used for the Tren Turístico Tijuana Tecate, 2 were scrapped at Jacumba yard, and one more is stored in Campo, CA near the Pacific Southwest Railway Museum. That one has the newer paint scheme with red and blue stripes.

[richii0909]

6 hours ago, Pace831 said:

The line is owned by the San Diego Metropolitan Transit System (MTS). It was operated by the Carrizo Gorge Railway (CZRY) from 2004 until 2008 when the line was embargoed. The MTS leased the operating rights to a new company called Pacific Imperial Railroad (PIR) in 2012. By most accounts, PIR never intended to operate trains, only to collect enough money from investors to pad their pockets  while making the lease payment. After PIR ended up in bankruptcy court in 2017, the Baja California Railroad took over their lease.

One theory for the derailment could be that PIR thought their investment fraud scheme was going to get them in trouble soon. They had collected plenty of money but had not yet made any tangible improvements to the railroad. So, they staged the derailment so they’d have a seemingly legitimate excuse to say “we need more money”.

According to this post on Trainorders.com, CZRY had purchased 11 Metra cars. 3 are (were?) used for the Tren Turístico Tijuana Tecate, 2 were scrapped at Jacumba yard, and one more is stored in Campo, CA near the Pacific Southwest Railway Museum. That one has the newer paint scheme with red and blue stripes.

Wow!!! Well I’m not surprised, in this day and age everyone is trying to scam everyone. So now that PIR is in the toilet... what will MTS do... it’s like MTS needs some oversight! The line is probably some terrible disrepair... not to mention the need to upgrade rail and make it PTC compatible. What a shame the line looked like it had many potentials.

[Pace831]

1 hour ago, richii0909 said:

Wow!!! Well I’m not surprised, in this day and age everyone is trying to scam everyone. So now that PIR is in the toilet... what will MTS do... it’s like MTS needs some oversight! The line is probably some terrible disrepair... not to mention the need to upgrade rail and make it PTC compatible. What a shame the line looked like it had many potentials.

The only reason MTS got involved is because they wanted the far west end for the San Diego Trolley transit service. They have no interest in the rest of the line other than to collect the lease payment. It’s almost certain that the lease agreement assigns responsibility for maintenance to the lessee, so MTS didn’t do anything wrong. Baja Rail, the current lessee, has cleared rockslides, moved the derailed cars, and installed gates and conducted patrols to discourage trespassers. They still need to do expensive repairs to the track, bridges, and tunnels, including repairing a major tunnel collapse. PTC won’t be needed because this isn’t a Class I railroad. Whether Baja Rail will see the project through to completion remains to be seen.

I did some more reading on Trainorders.com. According to one member who operated trains for the CZRY, the same people who had taken charge of the CZRY in 2007 were the ones who later formed the PIR, under the guise of creating a new company. Some of the original CZRY members were also shareholders in an excavating company called East County Dirt Works, who actually owned the Metra cars as well as three ex-Montreal commuter coaches on a siding four miles into the gorge. After CZRY abruptly shut down in 2008, ECDW sued them to in an attempt to get their equipment moved to an alternate storage location. For many reasons, this effort failed and the cars remain there today.

One more anecdote told by the same person was that CZRY had hired a contractor to scrap all the equipment at Jacumba. The scrapper had begun to cut up the two Metra cars there when they were informed that CZRY didn’t actually own the equipment and had no authority to order it to be scrapped. They put the owner (at ECDW) on the phone who told them to finish scrapping the Metra cars and leave the rest. Apparently CZRY thought they could get away with pocketing some money from unauthorized scrapping of equipment they didn’t own.

[andrethebusman]

Remember, this is all in Mexico, not in the US. So a totally different legal culture exists. Laws as we think of laws are at best sporadically enforced, and are frequently ignored.

The Trainorders post mention F-units at Jacumba. Any ideas on details?

[busfan2847]

Only the section from Tijuana to just west of Tecate is in Mexico. The line from Division (Canyon City) through Jacumba to Plaster City is in the USA.

The F-units at Jacumba are probably the ones mentioned below:

Carrizo Gorge Railway never owned any locomotives, but leased from various places. The railroad leased several locomotives from its employees and stockholder's interests from East County Dirt Works (ECDW).

Two EMD F7As 100 & 102, ex-WCRC, née B&LE.

One EMD F7B 101, ex-WCRC, née B&LE.

One EMD GP9 3878, ex-DLSX, née SP.

One EMD GP9 4324, ex-C&NW.

One GP40M-2 669, ex-UP.

One Alco S-4 1465, ex-RELCO, née SP.

[Pace831]

51 minutes ago, andrethebusman said:

Remember, this is all in Mexico, not in the US. So a totally different legal culture exists. Laws as we think of laws are at best sporadically enforced, and are frequently ignored.

The Trainorders post mention F-units at Jacumba. Any ideas on details?

I don't understand your comment "this is all in Mexico". MTS, CZRY, and PIR are all US companies. Part of the line does run through Mexico, but all the events described in this thread so far took place in the US. Baja Rail got involved because they operate part of the Mexican segment.

Here are pictures of the two F7A's and F7B at Jacumba. 100 and 102 seem to have been the CZRY's primary motive power. There is also a B-unit, 101, that apparently never operated and was used for parts. All three units were previously used on the Spirit of Washington dinner train. According to the former CZRY employee on Trainorders, they were owned by ECDW and leased to CZRY. I'm not sure who is "responsible" for them now.

[Pace831]

7 minutes ago, busfan2847 said:

Only the section from Tijuana to just west of Tecate is in Mexico. The line from Division (Canyon City) through Jacumba to Plaster City is in the USA.

The F-units at Jacumba are probably the ones mentioned below:

Carrizo Gorge Railway never owned any locomotives, but leased from various places. The railroad leased several locomotives from its employees and stockholder's interests from East County Dirt Works (ECDW).

Two EMD F7As 100 & 102, ex-WCRC, née B&LE.

One EMD F7B 101, ex-WCRC, née B&LE.

One EMD GP9 3878, ex-DLSX, née SP.

One EMD GP9 4324, ex-C&NW.

One GP40M-2 669, ex-UP.

One Alco S-4 1465, ex-RELCO, née SP.

100-102, 669, and 1465 are all in Jacumba currently. They have not moved since 2012 and have all evidently had parts stolen. 3878 and 4324 met a similar fate on a customer siding near Tijuana.

[andrethebusman]

Jacumba is south of the border. South of Tijuana actually. The derailed metra cars are in Mexico. So everything discussed so far (possible deliberate wrecking, unauthorized scrapping)  took place In Mexico. Google Earth clearly shows there is rail activity for maybe a mile south of the San Ysidrio border, mostly tank cars and covered hoppers, but south of Jacumba everything looks as of 2017 very dead.

 

[Pace831]

2 hours ago, andrethebusman said:

Jacumba is south of the border. South of Tijuana actually. The derailed metra cars are in Mexico. So everything discussed so far (possible deliberate wrecking, unauthorized scrapping)  took place In Mexico. Google Earth clearly shows there is rail activity for maybe a mile south of the San Ysidrio border, mostly tank cars and covered hoppers, but south of Jacumba everything looks as of 2017 very dead.

 

Jacumba on Google Maps

If you’re looking at Google Earth, the location of the yard is identified as “Jacumba Hot Springs, CA”. It’s an unincorporated city whose name is commonly shortened to “Jacumba”, located just north of the border. Zoom in on the satellite view and you can see the F7’s and other equipment in the small yard there. Follow the tracks north (railroad east) just over three miles and you’ll see the Metra cars.

There is a “Jacumba“ in Tijuana but the railroad does not pass through there.

[andrethebusman]

Funny thing that Google Earth shows two gallery cars plus several hoppers in a small yard south of Tijuana as of 2017. This matches description of "unauthorized scrapping" mentioned above. Google seems to associate this location with "Jacumba" in Baja California state and Jacumba Hot Springs in CA is a totally separate place. Street view of the Mexican Jacumba shows a fence around the yard with a gate across tracks.

[NewFlyerMCI]

5 hours ago, andrethebusman said:

Funny thing that Google Earth shows two gallery cars plus several hoppers in a small yard south of Tijuana as of 2017. This matches description of "unauthorized scrapping" mentioned above. Google seems to associate this location with "Jacumba" in Baja California state and Jacumba Hot Springs in CA is a totally separate place. Street view of the Mexican Jacumba shows a fence around the yard with a gate across tracks.

If you look at Google Maps at the "Estacion Jacumba" location just across the border from the San Ysidro station on the San Diego Trolley, you'll see some gallery cars as well in various liveries. The Google Maps image was dated around 2009 however

[Pace831]

The three gallery cars that were stored in the yard just south of the border were used for the Tijuana-Tecate Tourist Train. Two or three of them were wrapped at one point. Based on Google Earth, only one is still there and the other two were moved sometime between Nov 17, 2016 and Jan 26, 2017. I wondered where they went but it looks like @andrethebusman found them. Andre, can you post a link to the map showing the location of the "small yard south of Tijuana" you are describing? I was unable to locate it.

Jacumba Hot Springs had its name changed in 2013 to promote tourism. It was just "Jacumba" before that, and presumably the locals still refer to it by its shorter name.

Several references in the Trainorders post indicate the unauthorized scrapping took place in Jacumba (Hot Springs), CA, not in Mexico. That is the location of the CZRY's main yard where the F7s were kept. Based on the other events described in that post, the scrapping must have taken place around 2007.

[richii0909]

 Best seats ever!!!!!! Jacumba has been resurrected again!!

[Pace831]

On 3/28/2019 at 11:47 PM, andrethebusman said:

Funny thing that Google Earth shows two gallery cars plus several hoppers in a small yard south of Tijuana as of 2017. This matches description of "unauthorized scrapping" mentioned above. Google seems to associate this location with "Jacumba" in Baja California state and Jacumba Hot Springs in CA is a totally separate place. Street view of the Mexican Jacumba shows a fence around the yard with a gate across tracks.

Are you referring to  Estación Garcia? Street view shows the two wrapped tourist train cars there in 2017. The third car, which isn't wrapped, was in the yard by the border at that time. Google Earth imagery from January 2014 shows the three tourist cars on a siding in the fenced area just west of Estación Garcia with some hoppers. Those are the same cars you see in the 2017 images, but before the black wraps were put on.