The future of electric vehicle technology

[BusHunter]

You know how when cell phones came out, you had to charge them all with a cord, and then we came out with the wireless charging pad. The technology exists to do the same with electric vehicles charging with a pad in the street. They have been testing this technology now for 10 years, and they claimed to have run a test at Logan airport. It's interesting no moving parts, no towers to get electrocuted, just install a pad in the street an older video talks of putting charging strips in the street. Its definitely interesting to say the least!!

This is a newer video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36uEDbRwVqI

This is the older video, it talks more about the technology, they claim the technology can be used for trains that are electric.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrnpvGyAX8o

They claim BYD is running a pilot in Washington using this technology

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iioVJMbzfVk

[Busjack]

28 minutes ago, jajuan said:

...

Here's a question that falls within topic. Would fuel cell buses fit CTA's current clean air plans since they also are zero emissions except for water, or are they totally committed to only battery electric buses? Granted an overwhelming majority of current existing fuel cell buses are in China, fuel cell buses would appear to eliminate the infrastructure issue of needing charging stations along the route or at route terminals. New Flyer has developed XHE40s, some of which have been provided to AC Transit. And I believe Champaign-Urbana's MTD has gotten a few XHE60s.

Actually, it didn't.

Fuel cell buses would be zero emissions, but the problem noted in the literature once posted by @Bushunter was all the difficulty in generating, transporting, and storing the hydrogen. I don't know how it went over at Chicago garage with the outdoor fueling facility, but I can foresee the stink that would arise if one put a hydrogen tank on Kedzie or Armstrong Ave.

[jajuan]

16 minutes ago, Busjack said:

Actually, it didn't.

Fuel cell buses would be zero emissions, but the problem noted in the literature once posted by @Bushunter was all the difficulty in generating, transporting, and storing the hydrogen. I don't know how it went over at Chicago garage with the outdoor fueling facility, but I can foresee the stink that would arise if one put a hydrogen tank on Kedzie or Armstrong Ave.

Oops thought I was still catching up in the electric topic when I posted that question. But at any rate, the question came to mind because the scandal with the then-CTA president having some financial interest in fuel cell company aside, CTA did at one point dabble with the technology by way of the three 5900 series F40LFs. I wondered if the technology has evolved enough in the 25 years since to be viable enough to be considered again without the scandal this time around of course. 

[Busjack]

3 hours ago, jajuan said:

Oops thought I was still catching up in the electric topic when I posted that question. But at any rate, the question came to mind because the scandal with the then-CTA president having some financial interest in fuel cell company aside, CTA did at one point dabble with the technology by way of the three 5900 series F40LFs. I wondered if the technology has evolved enough in the 25 years since to be viable enough to be considered again without the scandal this time around of course. 

Belcaster aside, they mostly sat in the 79th yard.

A brief search indicates that there are some in Europe and Asia, but this article indicates that the storage of hydrogen is uneconomic, despite what Ballard says.

New Flyer announced a more advanced Ballard bus, but surprisingly to me, it has as much battery capacity as a BEB. Apparently the trade-off is refueling logistics.

Foothill Transit uses Proterras, but is now ordering NF fuel cell buses.

[jajuan]

On 12/12/2022 at 4:16 PM, Busjack said:

Belcaster aside, they mostly sat in the 79th yard.

A brief search indicates that there are some in Europe and Asia, but this article indicates that the storage of hydrogen is uneconomic, despite what Ballard says.

New Flyer announced a more advanced Ballard bus, but surprisingly to me, it has as much battery capacity as a BEB. Apparently the trade-off is refueling logistics.

Foothill Transit uses Proterras, but is now ordering NF fuel cell buses.

Yeah after the brief time of seeing them rolling along Madison at the time when they actually were in service. But what also sparked my question about FC buses was seeing that the Xcelsior fuel cells that were sent to AC Transit seemed to operate pretty well if the videos local Bay area transit fans posted on YouTube is a fair indication of their quality. These definitely aren't what AC Transit got since those are referred to as Xcelsior CHARGE H2. So this is an improvement on them too. Like earlier fuel cell models, these CHARGE FCs are also available as an artic. NF is stepping it up across two fronts in the zero emissions bus market since the XEs are available as 40 and 60 footers. Looking at that range mentioned in this announcement, I'd agree with you that TAs that are going zero emissions are in a balanced tradeoff now of logistics between whether to deal with charging stations both in the garage and on the street or whether to deal with storage of hydrogen.

[Busjack]

On 5/28/2023 at 2:37 PM, OneofthewillsNW said:

at this point, fuel cell is such a better choice for how we operate. 300 miles on a 40 ft frame, 12 min refueling, so only 20% longer then our current servicing timeframe from our normal buses. less negatively impacted by bad weather. 

Although I have my doubts, some TAs, such as Rochester-Genesse RTA support your position:

Quote

Commissioner Jankowski asked why
we are not expanding the electric buses. Rusty Korth stated that we are pressing the
pause button on electric buses because they are limited in the colder weather on the miles
they can drive on a charge. We will have the capacity with hydrogen fuel cell. We are
working on the hydrogen project to show the policy makers that electric does not work
well. What we have seen in the industry is that everyone is moving to hydrogen. Electric
works if you have 2-3 buses but when you have an entire fleet that is electric it just won’t
work.
 Chairman Jeffries stated that RG&E told us that if we went fully electric, they would have
a hard time supporting us. Rusty Korth stated that was correct as they would need to
build a substation in order to support the electric infrastructure.

Although this is another generation, RGRTA previously received  5 CNG buses from NYS DOT, which it would not store indoors, took to the RG&E yard about  miles from the garage to fuel, and eventually sold to CENTRO (Syracuse).

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

Although I have my doubts, some TAs, such as Rochester-Genesse RTA support your position:

Although this is another generation, RGRTA previously received  5 CNG buses from NYS DOT, which it would not store indoors, took to the RG&E yard about  miles from the garage to fuel, and eventually sold to CENTRO (Syracuse).

CNG seems to be working well for Pace. They haven't seemed to experience problems with CNG in the extreme heat or cold, although I would imagine that it would have some effect on mileage during extreme conditions.   I would hope that Pace would continue to keep South CNG and hopefully add Wheeling to the list.  I could be okay with North ans Southwest going electric but I think its fool's good to go all in on electric buses. 

[Busjack]

22 hours ago, andrethebusman99 said:

Way I read it, Proterra will concentrate on the battery business, as the bus building business was not all that successful, with 1000 total built in 9 years.

 

7 hours ago, rvwnsd said:

Given Proterra has only sold 1,300 buses to 130 agencies, this makes sense. Now that both NFI and Gillig sell electric buses there's no reason for transit systems to buy from an inexperienced bus builder like Proterra. I wonder if ENC will try to buy Proterra, given they do not currently make electric buses.

Let's also put this canard to rest. The volume of electric buses sold in the U.S. depe hnds on:

• Grants. For instance, CTA has purchased 47 BEVs from CMAQ and Low/No Grants. Before deciding to pull out, Nova Bus announced 5 bus each orders from WMATA  and MTA. Compare that to firm orders and options from TTC and Quebec.  New Flyer has done a bit better (Miami and COTA). ENC has sold 44 E buses. Who has the most experience? Proterra. Also, the conclusion could be reached that Canada's national government is much more serious about EVs than the US is.
• Mandates that TAs go all electric by 2035 or 2040 are only a couple of years old.
• Entities  such as Pace say that manufacturing capacity doesn't exist.

[Busjack]

While looking for Proterra bankruptcy news, i came across Prague is bringing trolleybuses back in town. The 24m Skoda-Solaris Trollino presented today at Czechbus. 24 meters is about 75 feet, and the bus has 2  articulations. It can run in battery mode.

Do you think CTA can use it? Get real. ?

 

[Sam92]

On 11/26/2023 at 10:02 AM, Busjack said:

While looking for Proterra bankruptcy news, i came across Prague is bringing trolleybuses back in town. The 24m Skoda-Solaris Trollino presented today at Czechbus. 24 meters is about 75 feet, and the bus has 2  articulations. It can run in battery mode.

Do you think CTA can use it? Get real. ?

 

would be nice if the artic worthy routes weren't such tight streets or turnarounds lol

[Busjack]

I guess it hertz. CNN: Hertz is selling 20,000 electric vehicles to buy gasoline cars instead. Apparent issues are with new car prices down, so is resale value, and repairs are more expensive.

[pudgym29]

On 1/11/2024 at 4:33 PM, Busjack said:

I guess it hertz. CNN: Hertz is selling 20,000 electric vehicles to buy gasoline cars instead. Apparent issues are with new car prices down, so is resale value, and repairs are more expensive.

There was the time I rented a car in Cleveland, OH. (for Cinema Wasteland), and I was issued a flex-fuel vehicle. Thankfully, I had a laptop which looked up the gas stations that had the E85 fuel and were close enough to Cleveland Hopkins Airport that I would not be subjected with a refueling charge [n.b.: It was not from Hertz]. ?

[Busjack]

28 minutes ago, Javi75 said:

The federal government should take away the electric bus mandate and leave it to transit agencies to decide what equipment is best for them. With how Chicago winters can be I don’t think CTA could manage an all electric bus fleet, most activists use emotion over logic and common sense. Electric vehicles aren’t all that sustainable especially in cold climates, CTA would be smarter to keep a diesel bus fleet with a few hybrids here and there. Where were the 600s at Sunday and Monday?

• You should post in the correct topic. The Federal Government isn't CTA.
• There isn't any federal electric bus mandate. What the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law says according to DOT:: 

Quote

Funding in the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law will support replacement of thousands of transit vehicles, including buses and ferries, with low- and no-emission vehicles.

$5.6 billion in Low- or No- Emission Bus Grants to transition to low- or zero-emission buses and purchase fueling and maintenance infrastructure....

The feds are only offering money and incentives. Transit authorities can refuse the grants. CTA has never refused federal money.

• Pace said it's using the bus to get experience and it worked fine.
• If you think the U.S. government is nuts, what about the Canadian national government committing to 50% of the cost of about 1500 electric buses? It isn't any warmer in Toronto or Montreal.
• CTA also has the option to go hydrogen FC. It tried it 30 years ago.

[Javi75]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

• You should post in the correct topic. The Federal Government isn't CTA.
• There isn't any federal electric bus mandate. What the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law says according to DOT:: 

The feds are only offering money and incentives. Transit authorities can refuse the grants. CTA has never refused federal money.

• Pace said it's using the bus to get experience and it worked fine.
• If you think the U.S. government is nuts, what about the Canadian national government committing to 50% of the cost of about 1500 electric buses? It isn't any warmer in Toronto or Montreal.
• CTA also has the option to go hydrogen FC. It tried it 30 years ago.

I’m just saying that I don’t feel electric buses would workout in the long run with CTA. What is CTA going to do when every single bus in its fleet fails in extreme weather conditions? I hope for the best that electric buses would workout but I don’t think it’s realistic. There’s no real reason to do away with diesel buses other than activists complaining about emissions. 

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, Javi75 said:

I’m just saying that I don’t feel electric buses would workout in the long run with CTA. What is CTA going to do when every single bus in its fleet fails in extreme weather conditions? I hope for the best that electric buses would workout but I don’t think it’s realistic. There’s no real reason to do away with diesel buses other than activists complaining about emissions. 

• But you don't admit that most of the factual premises in your prior post are false.
• Either you believe in climate change or don't. CTA has quantified how much pollution comes out of each kind of bus and how much can be mitigated.
• You certainly don't know why they were in the garage over the weekend. Pace said it was trying to get experience with its bus, and did, including insight into cold weather running. Maybe CTA didn't want to do that out of its "abundance of caution," (similar to its 7-week suspension of the Yellow Line, even though the posters here claimed to know better). Maybe it's a Proterra related issue (there were numerous bankruptcy objections based on warranty issues), Maybe CTA was more concerned with focusing its staff on conventional buses needing road service.
• Maybe you weren't around 78 years ago when  CTA bought 600 streetcars and then decided it couldn't use them, and now you want CTA to repeat that mistake. Maybe you want trolley buses back (NF still makes them).

[Javi75]

4 minutes ago, Busjack said:

• But you don't admit that most of the factual premises in your prior post are false.
• Either you believe in climate change or don't. CTA has quantified how much pollution comes out of each kind of bus and how much can be mitigated.
• You certainly don't know why they were in the garage over the weekend. Pace said it was trying to get experience with its bus, and did, including insight into cold weather running. Maybe CTA didn't want to do that out of its "abundance of caution," (similar to its 7-week suspension of the Yellow Line, even though the posters here claimed to know better). Maybe it's a Proterra related issue (there were numerous bankruptcy objections based on warranty issues),
• Maybe you weren't around 78 years ago when  CTA bought 600 streetcars and then decided it couldn't use them, and now you want CTA to repeat that mistake. Maybe you want trolley buses back (NF still makes them).

I just feel that CTA is rushing into electric buses when it should also factor service reliability. 2040 for an all electric fleet and the 8350s being the last diesel order is rushing things. CTA should be more realistic about the quality of service and efficiency. 

[Busjack]

2 minutes ago, Javi75 said:

I just feel that CTA is rushing into electric buses when it should also factor service reliability. 2040 for an all electric fleet and the 8350s being the last diesel order is rushing things. CTA should be more realistic about the quality of service and efficiency. 

Again, instead of retracting and repeating, what factual support do you have, other than the knee-jerk reaction of most posters here that anything that doesn't give instant gratification (including 7000s, 8350s) must be junk, especially here where it is experimental technology?

[Javi75]

12 minutes ago, Busjack said:

Again, instead of retracting and repeating, what factual support do you have, other than the knee-jerk reaction of most posters here that anything that doesn't give instant gratification (including 7000s, 8350s) must be junk, especially here where it is experimental technology?

I personally have very low expectations for CTA as a whole transit agency. I always anticipate CTA messing something up to the extent of thousands of riders being impacted. Anytime CTA tries something new I’m always going to expect something to go wrong. 

[YoungBusLover]

27 minutes ago, Busjack said:

Again, instead of retracting and repeating, what factual support do you have, other than the knee-jerk reaction of most posters here that anything that doesn't give instant gratification (including 7000s, 8350s) must be junk, especially here where it is experimental 

Proterra going bankrupt was the final nail in the coffin. Hardly any agency that purchased there product over the past 5 years is still running them at 100%, add CTA into the mix that has barely ran over 20% of the fleet the past 4-5 months is alarming in actuality. Being behind the scenes they're State of the art junk. Going electric is one thing but doing is properly is another which is something all agencies are still getting the hang of. I honestly think this experiment would of better worked out had CTA stuck with NFI years ago when they purchased the #700s. Now they're stuck between a company that no longer exists versus another one that will become the big giant across the US once Npva leaves next year.

[Busjack]

34 minutes ago, Javi75 said:

I personally have very low expectations for CTA as a whole transit agency. I always anticipate CTA messing something up to the extent of thousands of riders being impacted. Anytime CTA tries something new I’m always going to expect something to go wrong. 

So be it, but I don't expect much of someone for whom everything is Random CTA. Anf you would also have to attribute it to TTC,

STM/AUTC, Miami Dade. MBTA and NYCTA are bigger idiots on the rail front.

16 minutes ago, YoungBusLover said:

Proterra going bankrupt was the final nail in the coffin. Hardly any agency that purchased there product over the past 5 years is still running them at 100%, add CTA into the mix that has barely ran over 20% of the fleet the past 4-5 months is alarming in actuality. Being behind the scenes they're State of the art junk. Going electric is one thing but doing is properly is another which is something all agencies are still getting the hang of. I honestly think this experiment would of better worked out had CTA stuck with NFI years ago when they purchased the #700s. Now they're stuck between a company that no longer exists versus another one that will become the big giant across the US once Npva leaves next year.

Since we're getting into idiot TAs, there's BC Transit, which had the most warranty objections.

But maybe if TAs shouldn't have gone with Proterra, if NF is the answer, why hasn't CTA put 700, 701 into regular revenue service after they were rebuilt?  Last time they were tracked was about in March 2020

 

[Javi75]

1 minute ago, Busjack said:

So be it, but I don't expect much of someone for whom everything is Random CTA. Anf you would also have to attribute it to TTC,

STM/AUTC, Miami Dade. MBTA and NYCTA are bigger idiots on the rail front.

Since we're getting into idiot TAs, there's BC Transit, which had the most warranty objections.

But maybe if TAs shouldn't have gone with Proterra, if NI is the answer, why hasn't CTA put 700, 701 into regular revenue service after they were rebuilt?  Last time they were tracked was about in March 2020

 

I’m only talking about CTA I don’t care about other TAs just speaking from the perspective of a CTA rider. I hope that everything CTA does is successful but I always expect something to go wrong, never said CTA was an idiot TA. 

[Busjack]

1 minute ago, Javi75 said:

I’m only talking about CTA I don’t care about other TAs just speaking from the perspective of a CTA rider. I hope that everything CTA does is successful but I always expect something to go wrong, never said CTA was an idiot TA. 

You sure left that impression. You also keep backtracking.

[YoungBusLover]

3 hours ago, Busjack said:

So be it, but I don't expect much of someone for whom everything is Random CTA. Anf you would also have to attribute it to TTC,

STM/AUTC, Miami Dade. MBTA and NYCTA are bigger idiots on the rail front.

Since we're getting into idiot TAs, there's BC Transit, which had the most warranty objections.

But maybe if TAs shouldn't have gone with Proterra, if NF is the answer, why hasn't CTA put 700, 701 into regular revenue service after they were rebuilt?  Last time they were tracked was about in March 2020

 

Your suspicion is as good as mine when it comes to NFI and CTA parting ways after 2014 along with the #700s getting sidelined. Something had to of tipped of CTA to sudeline right after the Midway Chargers were constructed because they were supposed to go to 74th but those fell through as we so now. In regards to other agencies such as BC Transit one could argue that there shortfalls helped them in the long run.

[Busjack]

4 hours ago, YoungBusLover said:

Your suspicion is as good as mine when it comes to NFI and CTA parting ways after 2014 along with the #700s getting sidelined. Something had to of tipped of CTA to sudeline right after the Midway Chargers were constructed because they were supposed to go to 74th but those fell through as we so now. In regards to other agencies such as BC Transit one could argue that there shortfalls helped them in the long run.

I'm not sure what you are saying about NFI and CTA "parting ways," other than paying $1 million to rebuild the two buses and buy the Midway charger, the reason why the two buses have sat for almost 4 years is "unknown." I brought it up because you suggested NF as an alternative to Proterra,

If you are saying with regard to issuing the contract for up to 45 BEBs, CTA determined after a competitive process that Proterra offered the most advantageous deal. Maybe it goofed, but we don't know what is the problem. The CT Board authorized exercising the last 22 options, but we don't know if CTA issued a Notice to Proceed, especially since it said in the budget that it was monitoring the bankruptcy.

[YoungBusLover]

20 hours ago, Busjack said:

I'm not sure what you are saying about NFI and CTA "parting ways," other than paying $1 million to rebuild the two buses and buy the Midway charger, the reason why the two buses have sat for almost 4 years is "unknown." I brought it up because you suggested NF as an alternative to Proterra,

If you are saying with regard to issuing the contract for up to 45 BEBs, CTA determined after a competitive process that Proterra offered the most advantageous deal. Maybe it goofed, but we don't know what is the problem. The CT Board authorized exercising the last 22 options, but we don't know if CTA issued a Notice to Proceed, especially since it said in the budget that it was monitoring the bankruptcy.

Quote

If you are saying with regard to issuing the contract for up to 45 BEBs, CTA determined after a competitive process that Proterra offered the most advantageous deal. Maybe it goofed, but we don't know what is the problem. The CT Board authorized exercising the last 22 options, but we don't know if CTA issued a Notice to Proceed, especially since it said in the budget that it was monitoring the bankruptcy.

Yessir, you're correct with that statement. That's where my mindset is in regards to the overall direction the CTA is going in.