7000-series - Delivery & Updates

[BusHunter]

11 hours ago, Busjack said:

Probably will get some between 2020 and 2024. Like Forest Glen didn't get any Novas from 74th and C. Or did it?

As I said above, probably not. Hard to justify over 320 under present conditions.

As I have frequently said, you assume bloat. I do not.

I don't have to assume anything, it's all right there in front of your peepers. #5185-86 is not on the Green line? Then I better see an eye doctor!! 426 cars are not on the Red when before it ran in the 360's? 100 cars on the purple when 88 old cars ran it. 54 pink line cars when 44 old ones ran it. I could be here for days. Bringing blue line totals down doesn't make sense unless you bring the other lines down.

Now i will agree it might be possible, that orange could get #2600's while blue is getting #5000's or #7000's in 2022. But they will have an issue in 2017 when the scrapper takes away the 200 #2600 cars. Unless CTA tells them they changed their minds.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, BusHunter said:

But they will have an issue in 2017 when the scrapper takes away the 200 #2600 cars.

Since the plan is that 400 7000s replace 400 2600s, starting in 2020), and the scrapper has already taken away some 2600s (at least the 20  something that were wrecked) your math is no good.

I did not make any representations about the Green Line, but obviously none of its cars were moved to the Orange.

[BusHunter]

1 minute ago, Busjack said:

Since the plan is that 400 7000s replace 400 2600s, and the scrapper has already taken away some 2600s (at least the 20  something that were wrecked) your math is no good.

I did not make any representations about the Green Line, but obviously none of its cars were moved to the Orange.

What seems to be no good is this scrapper #2600 contract which seems to be taking forever. Orange line will never get anything if they don't scrap cars. CTa sure is not going to take the initiative and just give them some new cars. They'll only do it if forced. It's alot like FG and it's problems.

[BusHunter]

I was noticing in a boston link they state their cars are being made by CNR MA.

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2014/10/chinese_rail_company_wins_out.html

Ours are being made by CSR Sifang. Is that two separate companies? One link had said they lost the Boston bid as they were bidding against CNR MA let me look up that link. (one second)

Here is it

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/10/21/gov-patrick-announces-chinese-company-top-bidder-replace-red-and-orange-line-cars/i6hN6Q1UX0fmu49kzqkB9N/story.html

CSR Qingdao Sifang specifically is mentioned as losing the bid. that is the same company right?

[Busjack]

47 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

CSR Qingdao Sifang specifically is mentioned as losing the bid. that is the same company right?

Some of the articles said that the CNR and CSR had merged into CRRC after CSR lost.

The winning bidder here, CSR Sifang JV,  is a joint venture between CRRC and its U.S. based affilliate.

Anyway, this Railway Age says the company is the same.

[Busjack]

58 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

What seems to be no good is this scrapper #2600 contract which seems to be taking forever.

As noted frequently, these are "for up to..." No matter how many cars have been scrapped under that contract to this point, there isn't an obligation to scrap 200 cars, and if the contract runs out, CTA will just rebid. All the contracts establish is that CTA will get so much per ton for the scrap, for up to 200 cars before the deadline, and the scrapper will take them.

[BusHunter]

29 minutes ago, Busjack said:

As noted frequently, these are "for up to..." No matter how many cars have been scrapped under that contract to this point, there isn't an obligation to scrap 200 cars, and if the contract runs out, CTA will just rebid. All the contracts establish is that CTA will get so much per ton for the scrap, for up to 200 cars before the deadline, and the scrapper will take them.

It's probably happening it's just delayed for some reason. Why else should CTA forecast it will have 400 cars to replace, if indeed it has 500? They seem convinced 200 cars are scrapping.

[Busjack]

42 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

They seem convinced 200 cars are scrapping.

Yes, at some point before 2020, assuming you are going back to the first 2600 scrapped.

[Busjack]

On 3/8/2016 at 10:58 AM, garmon757 said:

I don't have Bombardier designs but I did have Sumitomo designs. 

I just sat through the video of the Committee on Finance, Audit & Budget, where the Director of Purchasing repented that the only two bidders, or at least the only two who got to the "best offer" stage were CSR and Bombardier. Are you sure you got this right?

[garmon757]

2 hours ago, Busjack said:

I just sat through the video of the Committee on Finance, Audit & Budget, where the Director of Purchasing repented that the only two bidders, or at least the only two who got to the "best offer" stage were CSR and Bombardier. Are you sure you got this right?

That's correct.

[Busjack]

13 hours ago, garmon757 said:

That's correct.

"That's" ambiguous.

[Pink Jazz]

Looks like CTA will be taking a TIFIA loan to finance the 7000-series cars:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/urban/single-view/view/tifia-loan-to-fund-chicago-l-cars.html

In addition, it looks like CTA has decided to make a firm order of 490 cars instead of the initial base order of 400.  This should be about enough to cover the entire Blue and Orange Line fleets of 2600-series cars.

[Busjack]

8 minutes ago, Pink Jazz said:

Looks like CTA will be taking a TIFIA loan to finance the 7000-series cars:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/urban/single-view/view/tifia-loan-to-fund-chicago-l-cars.html

In addition, it looks like CTA has decided to make a firm order of 490 cars instead of the initial base order of 400.  This should be about enough to cover the entire Blue and Orange Line fleets of 2600-series cars.

The TIFIA loan was mentioned in the subcommittee meeting before the the cars were discussed; what's new is that the feds agreed to it. Also note the term "partially."

The 90 cars added to the base order is new. Maybe you are correct that that takes care of BusHunter's concern about the 2600s bloat.

[BusHunter]

Just now, Busjack said:

The TIFIA loan was mentioned in the subcommittee meeting before the the cars were discussed; what's new is that the feds agreed to it. Also note the term "partially."

The 90 cars added to the base order is new. Maybe you are correct that that takes care of BusHunter's concern about the 2600s bloat.

490 cars doesn't really make sense though. Blue is 400, orange is 170 and brown is 170, so you can't equip those lines in their entirety. But there is one line that you can and have enough cars for an expansion, the Red line. 

[Busjack]

23 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Blue is 400, orange is 170 and brown is 170, so you can't equip those lines in their entirety.

You missed what Pink Jazz said ("the entire Blue and Orange Line fleets of 2600-series cars"). You also missed what was at the meeting (available on the video) that the discussion was only about the base order and replacing 2600s because "the 3200s are being rehabbed as we speak."

The only ambiguity caused by the announcement is that when it comes to ordering replacements for the 3200s, whether that will extend into option 3, but I'm sure CSR will take the business. You talked about expansion, maybe there it is.

But then you'll probably will be talking about some 2600s being on the system into 2025, if it is going to take 490 cars to replace them. And, apparently, the 3200s will outlive the service life of the rehab.

[BusHunter]

1 minute ago, Busjack said:

You missed what Pink Jazz said. You also missed what was at the meeting (available on the video) that the discussion was only about the base order and replacing 2600s because "the 3200s are being rehabbed as we speak."

The only ambiguity caused by the announcement is that when it comes to ordering replacements for the 3200s, whether that will extend into option 3, but I'm sure CSR will take the business. You talked about expansion, maybe there it is.

But then you'll probably will be talking about some 2600s being on the system into 2025, if it is going to take 490 cars to replace them.

So what are you saying, that CTA will retain the 490 #2600's it has and not retire the 90 cars? Then if that's the case, I guess #5000's on the Orange is off the table. Still it doesn't explain 490 cars. If they did Blue first, (they should but you never know with CTA) and say they had enough cars to do Orange or Brown (only 20 extra) that would clash with brownages because what do the brownages do run as #7000's on the brown line. If the CSR cars were a disaster, and they cancelled all options, that would put them in a paradox on the Orange and Brown. Now that is almost the same amount of cars that do the Pink, Blue and Green. Maybe someone got smart and decided they could run Pink's all the way through to O'Hare if they ever had a problem, but I'm sure someone would chime in "but the crews aren't trained"

[Busjack]

10 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

So what are you saying, that CTA will retain the 490 #2600's it has and not retire the 90 cars? Then if that's the case, I guess #5000's on the Orange is off the table.

That's what I get from Pink Jazz's post.

10 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

that would clash with brownages because what do the brownages do run as #7000's on the brown line.

The justification given by CTA for not requiring that 7000s be compatible with 5000s is that "we already have run mixed on some lines," such as 2600s on the Red Line until about 6 months ago. So, a mixture of 3200s and 7000s will run to Kimball until maybe 2028.

10 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

If the CSR cars were a disaster, and they cancelled all options

You said "if" but still that's potential product defamation. As noted earlier in the thread, CTA has a solicitation for quality control inspectors. Also, about this time in 2011, it was assumed that the Bombardier cars were a disaster, but Bombardier fixed them.

[BusHunter]

34 minutes ago, Busjack said:

That's what I get from Pink Jazz's post.

The justification given by CTA for not requiring that 7000s be compatible with 5000s is that "we already have run mixed on some lines," such as 2600s on the Red Line until about 6 months ago. So, a mixture of 3200s and 7000s will run to Kimball until maybe 2028.

You said "if" but still that's potential product defamation. As noted earlier in the thread, CTA has a solicitation for quality control inspectors. Also, about this time in 2011, it was assumed that the Bombardier cars were a disaster, but Bombardier fixed them.

Before we go off the deep end here, I'm just giving a "what if" scenario. CTA would have to be prepared for this if it did happen or they are not doing their homework. No one is obligated to buy options, but if their john hancock is on a contract then they are on the hook for 490. Running #3200's and #7000's is no different than running #5000's now on Orange. To me it looks like one scenario #7000's to red, but still that doesn't solve the 460 displaced #5000's. I still can't explain the change. 400 made more sense.

As far as Bombardier, let me remind you that they might have gave them some cars with a few defects, but they fixed them because that was on an active ordered contract and that is the companies obligation or I'm sure there would be litigation towards them.

[Busjack]

59 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

As far as Bombardier, let me remind you that they might have gave them some cars with a few defects, but they fixed them because that was on an active ordered contract and that is the companies obligation or I'm sure there would be litigation towards them.

And basically you are assuming that CTA would take delivery of 490 cars on the base order without blowing the whistle. They didn't on a base order of 406 in 2011.

Of course, CTA could decide not to take options in any event, but then they would have to rebid to replace 3200s when they become about 32 years old, and then probably wouldn't get any replacements until they were 36 (given the approximately 4 year setup and prototype testing period in the contracts for 5000s and 7000s)..

Again, if you go back to the video, there were comments about asking other users of CSR products, and there were no complaints, including with regard to timeliness of deliveries.

 

[BusHunter]

13 minutes ago, Busjack said:

And basically you are assuming that CTA would take delivery of 490 cars on the base order without blowing the whistle. They didn't on a base order of 406 in 2011.

Of course, CTA could decide not to take options in any event, but then they would have to rebid to replace 3200s when they become about 32 years old, and then probably wouldn't get any replacements until they were 36 (given the approximately 4 year setup and prototype testing period in the contracts for 5000s and 7000s)..

Again, if you go back to the video, there were comments about asking other users of CSR products, and there were no complaints, including with regard to timeliness of deliveries.

 

It wouldn't matter, they would still receive the 490, blowing the whistle or not. Only something on a NABI scale could possibly void a contract, but even that didn't void it actively only post acceptance.

I'm sure with a factory nearby, there will be lots of inspections by CTA, maybe even with whole teams of inspectors and brass  These will probably be the most heavily inspected cars just from the convenience of being nearby. CTA could also look into other things like using it's own trucks to haul new equipment to Skokie Shops. They could save tons of money on delivery. It might actually be worth it to buy or lease a few trailers.

[Busjack]

29 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

CTA could also look into other things like using it's own trucks to haul new equipment to Skokie Shops. They could save tons of money on delivery. It might actually be worth it to buy or lease a few trailers.

The contracts are generally F.O.B. CTA shops, In this case, the general specifications say that delivery must be made at Skokie Shops to avoid liquidated damages for late delivery, and inspection upon delivery will be at Skokie Shops (General specs 23, 24). Basically, it is the vendor's responsibility to get them there.

[Pace831]

Bombardier is claiming the procurement process was rigged to favor CSR. Here's the story.

[Busjack]

25 minutes ago, Pace831 said:

Bombardier is claiming the procurement process was rigged to favor CSR. Here's the story.

Well, I said anyone can protest and probably will.*

However, what this gets down to is the usual problem that CTA is supposed to be an independent municipal corporation, but Emanuel thinks it is his personal playpen. Thus, as Hinz implies. this filing is only exhaustion of administrative remedies until Bombardier can get it to the feds, as CTA brass is sure to reject that ground. The other issue, which only the feds have the capability to decide, is whether the Chinese government is subsidizing the bid.

 

*Also it appears that someone other than the poster got the legal retainer.

[BusHunter]

i wouldn't doubt it. There's lots of unfair things going on with this city. I didn't know Bombardier didn't propose a manufacturing plant here, the story says they planned to manufacture from NY. If so that's what killed them fair or not. This whole process to me was interrupted politically to please the mayor of the city so he could say he got us more jobs. I think that was wrong and selfish to ask that of a manufacturer. It's all supposed to be about who bids the lowest, not where they are building. That undermines the whole process. I can see how someone could manipulate that to get what they want. If that's the case I can't wait for the next bus contract to go out.

[Busjack]

23 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

It's all supposed to be about who bids the lowest, not where they are building.

It might not be in which city they are building, but Bombardier also did not bid the lowest, by $226 million.

23 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

If that's the case I can't wait for the next bus contract to go out.

As previously noted, New Flyer putting a bus completion facility in southern California seems tied to a LACMTD contract, and New York has tied bus and railcar contracts to having facilities in NY state, including Bombardier. The congresswoman didn't go to Plattsburgh just for the fun or posing behind a steering wheel. Do you also think it is coincidence that Sumitomo moved its assembly from Wisconsin to Illinois (although that solely involved state money)?