Pace Electric Buses

[Busjack]

8 hours ago, BusHunter said:

North will be the test bed for that. Im surprised someone has decided to do a whole garage. Thats really sticking your neck out. Other agencies will be watching and observing. 

Not really sticking their necks out. The 2022 Capital Plan calls for 6 buses, and they said at the hearing that they don't know where they are going to get them, given manufacturing constraints. 

The 5 year plan has:

 

...and given the progress so far on CNGs, that's probably optimistic.

[BusHunter]

2 hours ago, Busjack said:

Not really sticking their necks out. The 2022 Capital Plan calls for 6 buses, and they said at the hearing that they don't know where they are going to get them, given manufacturing constraints. 

The 5 year plan has:

 

...and given the progress so far on CNGs, that's probably optimistic.

Believe me it will take then that long to get electric buses if cta is any indication of that. Funny, 14 years after the end of this in 2026, the city is slated to have an all electric fleet. Yeah right!! Lol!!

The cng order has changed giving me  more wheeling questions. How do they run a garage with 88 cngs??? How do they close nw now??? If the difference goes to other garages would they be beyond max capacity??? Also the fleet will grow with dempster pulse coming on board. So there's more questions than an episode of Jeopardy and Im not Alex Trebek. Lol!!

[Busjack]

Wednesday's agenda includes tagging on a Georgia contract for Proterra buses.

[NewFlyerMCI]

22 hours ago, Busjack said:

Wednesday's agenda includes tagging on a Georgia contract for Proterra buses.

That's interesting. The state of GA entered into that contract about ~4 years ago to basically serve as a common purchaser, not only for their own needs, but also for other transit agencies in the state, if I'm remembering the contract correctly.

[Busjack]

25 minutes ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

That's interesting. The state of GA entered into that contract about ~4 years ago to basically serve as a common purchaser, not only for their own needs, but also for other transit agencies in the state, if I'm remembering the contract correctly.

Not much written about that, but that is correct (Proterra press release of April 2018). There was a discussion a while back about how SF MUNI bought NF buses off a Minnesota bus contract.

They were talking at the last Pace planning committee meeting about ways  to obtain electric buses, including piggybacking, but I am surprised they hit pay dirt that quickly.

[NewFlyerMCI]

11 minutes ago, Busjack said:

Not much written about that, but that is correct (Proterra press release of April 2018). There was a discussion a while back about how SF MUNI bought NF buses off a Minnesota bus contract.

They were talking at the last Pace planning committee meeting about ways  to obtain electric buses, including piggybacking, but I am surprised they hit pay dirt that quickly.

It's my guess that, unlike with traditional piggybacking orders, GA had enough potential options that just haven't been exercised yet due to the nature of the contract

[Busjack]

The board discussion on electric buses indicated that the electric buses are expected in the first or second quarter of 2023, which was the reason for the tag on. Something like $1.25 million per bus, with advanced telemetry systems that will let the garage monitor the charge level while on the road.

[BusHunter]

Proterra sees to be the big winner so far on electric buses. They seem to be the only manufacturer that has composite frames on twice the weight of a traditional bus. Hopefully all of these agencies are not eating crow later. Proterra in its entire existence has only made 645 buses!! Did I read that right? They have been delivering since 2010. So what is that 55 buses a year. I hope Pace is patient. Lol!!

[Busjack]

2 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Proterra sees to be the big winner so far on electric buses. They seem to be the only manufacturer that has composite frames on twice the weight of a traditional bus. Hopefully all of these agencies are not eating crow later. Proterra in its entire existence has only made 645 buses!! Did I read that right? They have been delivering since 2010. So what is that 55 buses a year. I hope Pace is patient. Lol!!

As Metzger said, this was the quickest way to get some buses, so I don't think Pace will be sweating over the delivery date, compared to whatever the alternatives were.

Update: The announcement of Metzger's appointment says 20 buses. Pace did more than dip its toe into the pond.

[NewFlyerMCI]

16 hours ago, Busjack said:

As Metzger said, this was the quickest way to get some buses, so I don't think Pace will be sweating over the delivery date, compared to whatever the alternatives were.

Update: The announcement of Metzger's appointment says 20 buses. Pace did more than dip its toe into the pond.

I imagine these buses will be stationed at garages serving one of the various exurbs, since I feel like most of the routes close to the city are a bit too long to toss the electrics at right away

[Busjack]

44 minutes ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

I imagine these buses will be stationed at garages serving one of the various exurbs, since I feel like most of the routes close to the city are a bit too long to toss the electrics at right away

The plan originally announced was to convert North (Waukegan), although there were mentions in the video about testing around the region.

[BusHunter]

17 hours ago, Busjack said:

As Metzger said, this was the quickest way to get some buses, so I don't think Pace will be sweating over the delivery date, compared to whatever the alternatives were.

Update: The announcement of Metzger's appointment says 20 buses. Pace did more than dip its toe into the pond.

Pace probably had to agree to those terms cause Proterra just doesnt have the building capability to do the whole order. That would be a whole years worth of work for Proterra. 

[BusHunter]

44 minutes ago, Busjack said:

The plan originally announced was to convert North (Waukegan), although there were mentions in the video about testing around the region.

I would say it would be cool to test on Pulse, but north probably will need the spares once they have no diesels. In the summer they have no school extras, so theoretically they will have lots of spares, if the buses are a rolling success. The proof will be in the pudding. 

If the cta is any indication, they have 11 electric buses in service, but the most I ever saw out at once was 3 buses and most of the time its less than that. 

[Busjack]

 

11 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Pace probably had to agree to those terms cause Proterra just doesnt have the building capability to do the whole order. That would be a whole years worth of work for Proterra. 

Again, au contre. See the 2022 Capital Plan below. So, if anything Pace got more than it planned (20 instead of 15). It was never going to get all 52 at once. And you don't know what Proterra's production capacity is.

 

11 hours ago, BusHunter said:

I would say it would be cool to test on Pulse....

The only difference between Pulse and regular routes is that Pulse has fewer stops, but the routes are the same length. A more interesting test would be on I-90, something like a 603 or 605 trip.

[chicagocubs6323]

Today Pace announced it will order 20 Proterra ZX5s that will go into service in 2023.

https://www.proterra.com/press-release/pace-bus-order/

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, chicagocubs6323 said:

Today Pace announced it will order 20 Proterra ZX5s that will go into service in 2023.

https://www.proterra.com/press-release/pace-bus-order/

O really wonder if anyone at Pace asked anyone at CTA about their Proterras experience?

[Busjack]

3 hours ago, artthouwill said:

O really wonder if anyone at Pace asked anyone at CTA about their Proterras experience?

1. It's not news. See above.

2. Metzger said they talked to various TAs.,

[BusHunter]

18 hours ago, artthouwill said:

O really wonder if anyone at Pace asked anyone at CTA about their Proterras experience?

So far half of cta proterras has no experience. 

With Proterra only making 50 buses a year, they better buy the Proterra employees a case of scotch, that's about half what they produce per year. 

[Busjack]

8 hours ago, BusHunter said:

So far half of cta proterras has no experience. 

With Proterra only making 50 buses a year, they better buy the Proterra employees a case of scotch, that's about half what they produce per year. 

Why is there the presumption here that (1) they can't ramp up production and (2) everything CTA buys is junk? (NABIs were, but aside from that).

 

[BusHunter]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

Why is there the presumption here that (1) they can't ramp up production and (2) everything CTA buys is junk? (NABIs were, but aside from that).

 

Cause cta employees say that, I have experienced it. Have you rode the buses yet. They sound good on paper but paper is not reality.

[BusHunter]

So I wonder where north will put its 2 chargers, that doesn't sound like a lot of chargers. I wonder does the garage count as one. If so where could they put the other, Waukegan Metra?? Or Gurnee Mills?? Now that leads to another question. Can they put a charger at a 3rd party location?? 

26 mill is alot for 20 buses. I wonder will they be Green liveried? The highland Park hybrids were. Regardless it's gonna be nutty to see Proterras at Pace.

[Busjack]

2 hours ago, BusHunter said:

So I wonder where north will put its 2 chargers, that doesn't sound like a lot of chargers. I wonder does the garage count as one. If so where could they put the other, Waukegan Metra?? Or Gurnee Mills?? Now that leads to another question. Can they put a charger at a 3rd party location?? 

26 mill is alot for 20 buses. I wonder will they be Green liveried? The highland Park hybrids were. Regardless it's gonna be nutty to see Proterras at Pace.

If Pace is going to follow the Charging Forward theory of minimizing remote chargers, the main one will be at the garage (10th and Jackson), which isn't that far from the downtown pulse point (see map). I tend to doubt that it would be on Sheridan Road, which is basically park land. The Metra station isn't much better; besides, there is the steep ramp to get to it.

The only long schedule  block at North is the 565 574 272 574 570 572 interline. Hence, while all of this is subject to study, my money is on College of Lake County. Gurnee Mills is no longer the end of the line, and doing it there would require acquiring private property.

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

If Pace is going to follow the Charging Forward theory of minimizing remote chargers, the main one will be at the garage (10th and Jackson), which isn't that far from the downtown pulse point (see map). I tend to doubt that it would be on Sheridan Road, which is basically park land. The Metra station isn't much better; besides, there is the steep ramp to get to it.

The only long schedule  block at North is the 565 574 272 574 570 572 interline. Hence, while all of this is subject to study, my money is on College of Lake County. Gurnee Mills is no longer the end of the line, and doing it there would require acquiring private property.

That's a crazy interline.   I wonder if it will remain when the Wheeling garage opens.   Wheeling is close enough to Hawthorne for it to take 272 full time as opposed to sharing with North  as NW does now.  I rode with a driver that did that block.   It was a 12 hour shift.   That driver did it twice a week with 3 days with 5 hour shifts on other routes. I don't know the layover time between routes at CLC.  RGe 574 isn't a  long route but the 272 is.   That bus would have to charge before it becomes a 574 and again upon its return to CLC after doing a 272 and 574.

[BusHunter]

2 hours ago, Busjack said:

If Pace is going to follow the Charging Forward theory of minimizing remote chargers, the main one will be at the garage (10th and Jackson), which isn't that far from the downtown pulse point (see map). I tend to doubt that it would be on Sheridan Road, which is basically park land. The Metra station isn't much better; besides, there is the steep ramp to get to it.

The only long schedule  block at North is the 565 574 272 574 570 572 interline. Hence, while all of this is subject to study, my money is on College of Lake County. Gurnee Mills is no longer the end of the line, and doing it there would require acquiring private property.

It's a question that will have to be addressed in the future as Pace has alot of 3rd party terminals. Someone on another forum was questioning the putting of a charger on a curbside location layover like Austin and Lake. (Sorry I don't know Norths territory that well to use a real example) is that legal because it is a public way in a city environment. Don't know if such an example exists now anywhere.

Then there's also shared turnarounds like 63rd/archer. Who pays for that? I suppose a feeder could have a one end terminal charger. Still pads are probably better for charging, but you have bus infrastructure issues then. Alot of what defeats electric buses is the change in the technology itself. You can't have a universal system because technology will always change it around. 

[BusHunter]

11 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

That's a crazy interline.   I wonder if it will remain when the Wheeling garage opens.   Wheeling is close enough to Hawthorne for it to take 272 full time as opposed to sharing with North  as NW does now.  I rode with a driver that did that block.   It was a 12 hour shift.   That driver did it twice a week with 3 days with 5 hour shifts on other routes. I don't know the layover time between routes at CLC.  RGe 574 isn't a  long route but the 272 is.   That bus would have to charge before it becomes a 574 and again upon its return to CLC after doing a 272 and 574.

How did they justify the cdl mandate on his work hours per day?