Charging Forward (bus electrification plan)

[Busjack]

4 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

....

You know how the feds passed a law stating in 2023 and every year after a car must be more fuel efficient than the year before. I wonder does that apply to buses and if it does would it force them to buy at least hybrids after a certain point. 

Since the feds pay for most of the buses, it would be a matter of incentives, such as the infrastructure bill and the terms of CMAQ grants. But it now appears that hybrid buses are not the answer. I don't know what MTA's, TTC's, and MUNI's* results were, but note that CTA and Pace didn't buy any more after 4332 and 2831. 4300-4332 were because of the condition of the federal grant, and** 2830-2831 were jokes.

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*3 of the largest mostly hybrid fleets

**As I noted at the time, there was no benefit since the buses were idling at the layover.

[jajuan]

2 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

MUNI has the advantage of already having a robust, operable, trolleybus system, they have a leg up

Right that part is definitely true. I didn't forget about those. I was just was speaking strictly on their traditional buses. And by having all their buses on that front being hybrids once they retired all their remaining 40 foot Neoplans, they have an even bigger leg up on the rest of the Bay area systems in terms of improvement of their fleet's impact on air quality. The rest of Bay area still has a significant ratio of straight diesel buses operating.

[NewFlyerMCI]

2 hours ago, Busjack said:

Since the feds pay for most of the buses, it would be a matter of incentives, such as the infrastructure bill and the terms of CMAQ grants. But it now appears that hybrid buses are not the answer. I don't know what MTA's, TTC's, and MUNI's* results were, but note that CTA and Pace didn't buy any more after 4332 and 2831. 4300-4332 were because of the condition of the federal grant, and** 2830-2831 were jokes.

-------------------------

*3 of the largest mostly hybrid fleets

**As I noted at the time, there was no benefit since the buses were idling at the layover.

WMATA purchased a rather large fleet of hybrids (DE35/40LFAs, XDE40s and few DE60LFAa & XDE60s), and had close to one of the largest fleets of hybrids in the nation at one point. Since then, they've only purchased CNG (to replace Orion VIIs & C40LF) and diesel (to replace D40LFR, DE40LF, DE40LFR & Orion Vs). The oldest DE35/40s are due to be retired soon, and the oldest XDE40s are going through rehab. WMATA has orders placed for more CNG & diesel buses, so it looks like 2008-2016 (or 2017) reign of hybrids at WMATA is on its deathbed. I think one of the issues WMATA has was cost, hybrid buses were very expensive for them.

That last point might be the general consensus for most TAs; electric buses are only that much more expensive than hybrids, so I'm sure at least a few don't see a point in purchasing them anymore.

[NewFlyerMCI]

53 minutes ago, jajuan said:

Right that part is definitely true. I didn't forget about those. I was just was speaking strictly on their traditional buses. And by having all their buses on that front being hybrids once they retired all their remaining 40 foot Neoplans, they have an even bigger leg up on the rest of the Bay area systems in terms of improvement of their fleet's impact on air quality. The rest of Bay area still has a significant ratio of straight diesel buses operating.

True enough. Although I'll say again, buses being diesel isn't the biggest deal, since a bus with even two passengers is already taking two cars off the road (assuming they aren't captive riders). Part of the reason I wish the environmentalist groups would focus some of their attention elsewhere

[Busjack]

2 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

... since a bus with even two passengers is already taking two cars off the road (assuming they aren't captive riders). Part of the reason I wish the environmentalist groups would focus some of their attention elsewhere

I don't think it works quite that way. Cars since 1996 have had OBD II  emissions controls, and improving mpg. Buses are no longer belching soot like the Pace Orion VIs did, but they still probably are getting less than 4 mpg.

[NewFlyerMCI]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

I don't think it works quite that way. Cars since 1996 have had OBD II  emissions controls, and improving mpg. Buses are no longer belching soot like the Pace Orion VIs did, but they still probably are getting less than 4 mpg.

Fair enough, that was optimistic lol, but 1 full diesel bus is still better than ~10 cars, regardless of fuel

[jajuan]

3 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

True enough. Although I'll say again, buses being diesel isn't the biggest deal, since a bus with even two passengers is already taking two cars off the road (assuming they aren't captive riders). Part of the reason I wish the environmentalist groups would focus some of their attention elsewhere

But with the latest focus now being reducing carbon footprints, public transit systems are now jumping all over each other in the mad dash toward bus fleet electrification. Not even CNG buses can escape being targets in the big major city TA's plans on that front. 

[Busjack]

On 2/23/2022 at 6:10 PM, Tcmetro said:

Fisk is going to be redeveloped into a data center, I'm not sure about some of the land around it.

...

Correct (Block Club Chicago). Apparently, Emanuel announced it without either the city or CTA buying the property, Announcement said it was just a Memorandum of Understanding.

[BusHunter]

So now we have the feds giving grant money for electric buses.

https://abc7chicago.com/cta-electric-buses-grant-american-rescue-plan-bus/11630443/

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, BusHunter said:

So now we have the feds giving grant money for electric buses.

https://abc7chicago.com/cta-electric-buses-grant-american-rescue-plan-bus/11630443/

Thanks for the lead. The official FTA source is here.

This doesn't seem to be capital money, per se, as the site says:

Quote

American Rescue Plan (ARP) Additional Assistance Funding
Opportunity

On Monday, March 7, FTA announced funding selections for $2.2 billion in discretionary grant funding for transit systems demonstrating additional pandemic-associated needs. 

Additional Assistance funding is being awarded to 35 transit systems in 18 states demonstrating additional assistance is needed to cover operating expenses related to maintaining day-to-day operations, cleaning and sanitization, combating the spread of pathogens on transit systems and maintaining critical staffing levels.

 

The Illinois Senators' press release indicates that this was money needed to move forward after the pandemic. Maybe the theory is that if CTA had to use capital money to keep service running, this could be used to replenish it so CTA can move forward. But this seems in addition to other grants.

[BusHunter]

7 hours ago, Busjack said:

Thanks for the lead. The official FTA source is here.

This doesn't seem to be capital money, per se, as the site says:

The Illinois Senators' press release indicates that this was money needed to move forward after the pandemic. Maybe the theory is that if CTA had to use capital money to keep service running, this could be used to replenish it so CTA can move forward. But this seems in addition to other grants.

Yeah the title of the story is somewhat misleading. Its also most likely a one time thing. 113 million only buys about 120 buses. A electric bus on average is 900k a piece.

I was trying to figure are the buses worth it.  I was trying to figure the fuel budget.  For example in 2008 the fuel budget was 66 million. If you divide 1800 into that amount you get around 37000 in fuel used per bus for the year. If you figure you are overpaying 500k due to them being electric,  it would take you 15 years to break even on the gas. Now in repairs and manpower for those repairs maybe it could be knocked down to half to 2/3rds that. Still its an expensive proposition. I dont know where all the money will be coming from for 1800 buses. Plus they are talking about 120 buses and they didnt test the nova electrics yet. Hold on guys before you make the wrong choice. I dont know how long it would take proterra to make 120 buses could be up to 6 yeats plus like I said we dont know if nova is better. The cart seems to be put before the horse here!!

[Busjack]

5 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Yeah the title of the story is somewhat misleading. Its also most likely a one time thing. 113 million only buys about 120 buses. A electric bus on average is 900k a piece.

I was trying to figure are the buses worth it. ... The cart seems to be put before the horse here!!

The headline was to "help" switch, not buy 1800 out of it.

Your analysis is about right, although $1 million seems to be for a bus and a charger, and electricity isn't free.

I'm not sure where ABC7 got the electric bus angle, as CTA has not posted a press release on it yet. I still bet that most of the $118 million goes to operating, but we'll probably have to wait for the Finance, Audit, and Budget Committee meeting to get more details.

[BusHunter]

CTA had announced the money would go towards electric buses but didnt say how many buses or how little. Here's an example 

https://www.metro-magazine.com/10161974/cta-unveils-roadmap-for-conversion-to-all-electric-bus-system-by-2040

This article says they want 7 more charging stations however

https://galvanizeit.org/project-gallery/cta-electric

[Busjack]

2 hours ago, BusHunter said:

CTA had announced the money would go towards electric buses but didnt say how many buses or how little. Here's an example 

https://www.metro-magazine.com/10161974/cta-unveils-roadmap-for-conversion-to-all-electric-bus-system-by-2040

This article says they want 7 more charging stations however

https://galvanizeit.org/project-gallery/cta-electric

If you look at the date of the Metro Magazine article (Feb. 22), it was only about the Charging Forward study, and not the American Rescue Plan money.

I don't know where Galvanize got a picture of an articulated electric bus.

ABC7 just did a story about the $118 million grant, but didn't say anything about electric buses. Not posted on its website yet.

 

[Busjack]

Today's Board Meeting Presentation was generally the Charging Forward plan, but one thing that was explained was that the references to 23 Proterras when the base order was 20 was because 3 of the buses were funded by VW settlement money. If that's what the change order on the agenda was, so be it, although that seems backwards.

[BusHunter]

Spotted #608 getting charged at Austin and chicagos turnaround this morning. Had two cta emergency vehicles behind it with there lights flashing. I dont know what was up but It never seemed to go into service. 

[jajuan]

On 2/23/2022 at 10:19 AM, Busjack said:

Therof FG ane was the fictional Fisk garage. With block length or range anxiety being a concern, I would thin nearer to downtown would be better, which is the only reason I mention it.

However, with the report leaving the fates  of FG and NP up in the air, it'ss probably not worth speculating about it.

Art never said that. He was talking about today.

Maybe you can time travel back to the 1950s and put battery electric buses where, at the time, CTA was running electric streetcars and trolley buses, the comment would have some relevance.

Again, irrelevant to the discussion in the report that the purchase schedule in the report was based on the 14 year replacement schedule for diesel buses. The report never asserted that the 600s would last until 2036.

Maybe you can read the following:

 

And the whole crux of the discussion becomes can CTA make the necessary peripheral infrastructure changes within the next four years to make that change to all electric purchases. Given the funding issues and the issues they have in building a new garage, I don't see it just yet. 

[Busjack]

7 hours ago, jajuan said:

And the whole crux of the discussion becomes can CTA make the necessary peripheral infrastructure changes within the next four years to make that change to all electric purchases. Given the funding issues and the issues they have in building a new garage, I don't see it just yet. 

Nobody, and especially not Charging Forward, said that all infrastructure improvements had to be made within 4 years. The report just said that diesel bus purchases had to end in 2026, and contained proposed schedules for buying electric buses and on converting garages.

[jajuan]

On 3/27/2022 at 8:40 PM, Busjack said:

Nobody, and especially not Charging Forward, said that all infrastructure improvements had to be made within 4 years. The report just said that diesel bus purchases had to end in 2026, and contained proposed schedules for buying electric buses and on converting garages.

That may be, but let's be real. If you're going to stop diesel purchases by 2026 some kind of inroads would need to be made on charging infrastructure both in the garages and on the street. The buses are not just going to charge themselves. I'm not saying they have to be at 100 percent. But they need to be on some significant path at making all bus purchases electric come 2026.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, jajuan said:

That may be, but let's be real. If you're going to stop diesel purchases by 2026 some kind of inroads would need to be made on charging infrastructure both in the garages and on the street. The buses are not just going to charge themselves. I'm not saying they have to be at 100 percent. But they need to be on some significant path at mat making all bus purchases electric come 2026.

As I noted, the paths are in the plan, although specifics such as "install a substation at Van Buren and Spaulding in 2032" [hypothetical] are not. An example is the following chart:

 

[jajuan]

On 3/28/2022 at 4:28 PM, Busjack said:

As I noted, the paths are in the plan, although specifics such as "install a substation at Van Buren and Spaulding in 2032" [hypothetical] are not. An example is the following chart:

 

Makes sense on the grander scheme. And I wasn't trying to be extra nitpicky. My main point was basically that if CTA really wants to be on the committed path of only purchasing electric buses starting in 2026, then it needs to be getting the ball rolling basically today on securing funds for the initial charging infrastructure and having planning meetings starting in the same timeframe for decisions on optimal placement of charging units at key points on relevant routes. I say that because I take note that come 2026, the artics are going to be in serious need of replacement. The oldest 4000s will be about 18 years old, and the oldest 4300s will be just hitting retirement age. I also take note of how right now roughly 10% of the artics are sidelined long term awaiting major repairs due to the current significant backlog down in SS. Repair backlogs could possibly effect a higher number of artics at that time, looking ages of the 4000s at that point. Plus CTA is eventually going to want all the electric buses they do acquire over the 15 year transition that starts at 2026 to be able to stay on the road for the same long stretches that some of the current diesel and hybrid buses currently do. That of course means use of the on-route chargers during some point of a given bus's service day. With its still being in the teething stages on just 40 foot electric buses, as @BusHunterpoints out, it's still just lofty goals for CTA.

[Sam92]

1 hour ago, jajuan said:

Makes sense on the grander scheme. And I wasn't trying to be extra nitpicky. My main point was basically that if CTA really wants to be on the committed path of only purchasing electric buses starting in 2026, then it needs to be getting the ball rolling basically today on securing funds for the initial charging infrastructure and having planning meetings starting in the same timeframe for decisions on optimal placement of charging units at key points on relevant routes. I say that because I take note that come 2026, the artics are going to be in serious need of replacement. The oldest 4000s will be about 18 years old, and the oldest 4300s will be just hitting retirement age. I also take note of how right now roughly 10% of the artics are sidelined long term awaiting major repairs due to the current significant backlog down in SS. Repair backlogs could possibly effect a higher number of artics at that time, looking ages of the 4000s at that point. Plus CTA is eventually going to want all the electric buses they do acquire over the 15 year transition that starts at 2026 to be able to stay on the road for the same long stretches that some of the current diesel and hybrid buses currently do. That of course means use of the on-route chargers during some point of a given bus's service day. With its still being in the teething stages on just 40 foot electric buses, as @BusHunterpoints out, it's still just lofty goals for CTA.

Add to that a lot of turnarounds we're built waaaay back and werent anticipating the ridership of today (i.e routes that converted to artics in small terminals or straight frequency)

[jajuan]

3 hours ago, Sam92 said:

Add to that a lot of turnarounds we're built waaaay back and werent anticipating the ridership of today (i.e routes that converted to artics in small terminals or straight frequency)

Right. And that doesn't even get into the other point I forgot to mention that the future electric buses, both standard length and artics, will also need to be able to withstand the punishment of zipping up and down Lake Shore Drive when assigned to either one of the Lake Shore expresses.

[Sam92]

10 hours ago, jajuan said:

Right. And that doesn't even get into the other point I forgot to mention that the future electric buses, both standard length and artics, will also need to be able to withstand the punishment of zipping up and down Lake Shore Drive when assigned to either one of the Lake Shore expresses.

That's something CDOT and CTA gotta get in the ring about with the grand canyon Jr forming by McCormick. Bump makes you wanna pick the bus up and carry it the rest of the way ??

[BusHunter]

19 hours ago, jajuan said:

Makes sense on the grander scheme. And I wasn't trying to be extra nitpicky. My main point was basically that if CTA really wants to be on the committed path of only purchasing electric buses starting in 2026, then it needs to be getting the ball rolling basically today on securing funds for the initial charging infrastructure and having planning meetings starting in the same timeframe for decisions on optimal placement of charging units at key points on relevant routes. I say that because I take note that come 2026, the artics are going to be in serious need of replacement. The oldest 4000s will be about 18 years old, and the oldest 4300s will be just hitting retirement age. I also take note of how right now roughly 10% of the artics are sidelined long term awaiting major repairs due to the current significant backlog down in SS. Repair backlogs could possibly effect a higher number of artics at that time, looking ages of the 4000s at that point. Plus CTA is eventually going to want all the electric buses they do acquire over the 15 year transition that starts at 2026 to be able to stay on the road for the same long stretches that some of the current diesel and hybrid buses currently do. That of course means use of the on-route chargers during some point of a given bus's service day. With its still being in the teething stages on just 40 foot electric buses, as @BusHunterpoints out, it's still just lofty goals for CTA.

It is really just baby steps at cta so far. Most buses don't run more than 2 or 3 hours and only 3 run max per rush period. It is really depressing to come down chicago and not see these. Don't know whats the issue. Was thinking this morning maybe the buses could be spread around. Why wait for next year or two years why not just let 103rd try out a few buses. Even if there is no route charger at least the buses could get some well needed exposure. It worked for the 700s. If the garage doesn't have a charger how about running a couple out of 77th. I don't know if we'll ever see all proterras on the #66. It seems far fetched. At least more managers could see the buses and get a clue.. I don't get it the Aon express is running good. Maybe cta needs to speak to that operators maintenance. LOL!!