Charging Forward (bus electrification plan)

[jajuan]

9 minutes ago, Javi75 said:

On the 4000s and 4300s hybrid buses especially when they’re on LSD make a certain sound when they slow down after going fast, only hybrid buses make that sound when slowing down after going fast. You would have to be close enough to the buses motor to hear it. 

Yeah the sound of the regenerative brakes working in conjunction to the motor and hybrid drive. You hear it in all hybrid buses equipped with an Allison EP-40 or EP-50. The 4000s and hybrid 4300s have the EP-50 while the 800s had the EP-40. You also heard it therefore in the 800s. You don't hear it in hybrids with a BAE System HybriDrive. In those it's more a whistle during deceleration. But back on the Allison hybrid systems, EP-40s tend to be used more in 40 foot buses and shorter, while the EP-50 gets installed in articulated hybrids. SF MUNI is interesting in that the 40 footers that got Allison hybrid systems instead of the BAE system, were equipped with the EP-50 like the majority of their artics instead of the EP-40. But to bring this back on topic, the question now becomes whether the present battery powered electric buses can show themselves able to handle Chicago's road and weather conditions like the hybrids showed themselves to be.

[Busjack]

On 10/26/2022 at 8:06 PM, Tcmetro said:

CTA is still awaiting the 6 electrics from last year's LowNo grant and 10 from this year's grant. ...

CTAs fleet plans have never been terribly transparent, and seem to be relatively flexible compared to other agencies.

Your comment led me to search for the reference:

 

Still didn't explain how these became Nova Bus, apparently without a solicitation, instead of exercising options for Proterras. One clue may be in 49 USC 5339(c)(8) :

Quote

(8) Continued use of partnerships.—

(A) In general.—

A recipient of a grant under this subsection may submit an application in partnership with other entities, including a transit vehicle manufacturer, that intends to participate in the implementation of an eligible project under this subsection.

(B) Competitive procurement.—

Eligible projects awarded with partnerships under this subsection shall be considered to satisfy the requirement for a competitive procurement under section 5325.

 

Maybe CTA and Nova Bus "partnered."

The 2022 grant was better publicized (FTA) :

 

[Tcmetro]

The 6 Novas were mentioned in a presentation to the board last November:

 

https://www.transitchicago.com/assets/1/6/Nov2021_-_Electric_Bus_Update_for_Board_Meeting.pdf

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, Tcmetro said:

The 6 Novas were mentioned in a presentation to the board last November:

 

https://www.transitchicago.com/assets/1/6/Nov2021_-_Electric_Bus_Update_for_Board_Meeting.pdf

Knew that back then. Do you have the definitive explanation why this was a no bid procurement?

[YoungBusLover]

In a strange term of events today neither charging port is working properly today on the #66 and all #600s are getting traded off with standard diesel buses for the time being for the evening rush. #600 over the past few days was pulled into the garage due to the buses not getting a full charge and in recent weeks other #600s have experienced the same issue when it comes to charging. 

[Tcmetro]

 AP News article about electric buses featuring the performance of the Proterras in the Chicago winter:

https://apnews.com/article/chicago-electric-bus-cold-weather-eea4314383f4678c01d78ff202936d68

[Busjack]

Stuff is apparently moving forward on electric buses on the South Side (agenda)

[Busjack]

On 6/14/2023 at 10:15 AM, Busjack said:

Stuff is apparently moving forward on electric buses on the South Side (agenda)

Meeting video confirms this is for 103 Garage and that Low/No grant.

[artthouwill]

On 6/14/2023 at 10:15 AM, Busjack said:

Stuff is apparently moving forward on electric buses on the South Side (agenda)

The board also approved ( or didn't question) the change order that allows CTA to purchase the last 22 Proterras allowance under the contract with Proterra that will bring to 45 the number of Proterras CTA will have purchased.   Eventually i suppose the Proterras will be split between C and 74th and 103rd will get the electric Novas.

[Busjack]

14 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

The board also approved ( or didn't question) the change order that allows CTA to purchase the last 22 Proterras allowance under the contract with Proterra that will bring to 45 the number of Proterras CTA will have purchased.   Eventually i suppose the Proterras will be split between C and 74th and 103rd will get the electric Novas.

That was listed in the BE/ZX5 thread.

[artthouwill]

50 minutes ago, Busjack said:

That was listed in the BE/ZX5 thread.

I only mentioned it here because that was on the Agenda ( 8A1) was immediately before the consulting item concerning 103rd  ( 8 A2).

[Busjack]

3 hours ago, Javi75 said:

Is a large number of electric buses realistic for CTA going off how long it for the 600s to roll out or the 700s? 

Besides having nothing to do with 8350s, the question essentially the same as though you asked in 1938, about when CSL got small feeder buses, whether buses would replace streetcars in 20 years. Turns out, 20 years later, they did, and also that CSL/CTA made a mistake in 1947-1948, in buying 600 streetcars, which were scrapped and parts salvaged for L cars. Since people want to grouse here, what took so long to roll out the 5000s and 7000s, while L cars have been around for 130 years?

The more relevant question is why are U.S. TAs scrounging around for small quantities of electric buses, while New Flyer was able to commit for 621 and Nova Bus 1770 (Toronto and Quebec)(including options) in Canada.

More recently, Miami-Dade made a firm order for 100 XE60s. So, something must be available.

[Javi75]

11 hours ago, Busjack said:

Besides having nothing to do with 8350s, the question essentially the same as though you asked in 1938, about when CSL got small feeder buses, whether buses would replace streetcars in 20 years. Turns out, 20 years later, they did, and also that CSL/CTA made a mistake in 1947-1948, in buying 600 streetcars, which were scrapped and parts salvaged for L cars. Since people want to grouse here, what took so long to roll out the 5000s and 7000s, while L cars have been around for 130 years?

The more relevant question is why are U.S. TAs scrounging around for small quantities of electric buses, while New Flyer was able to commit for 621 and Nova Bus 1770 (Toronto and Quebec)(including options) in Canada.

More recently, Miami-Dade made a firm order for 100 XE60s. So, something must be available.

Would every bus route in the city need electric charging stations like the 63 and 66 or would that depend on the electric bus maker? 

[artthouwill]

3 minutes ago, Javi75 said:

Would every bus route in the city need electric charging stations like the 63 and 66 or would that depend on the electric bus maker? 

That's a good question.   My answer would be that most routes would need at least one charging station and there could be sine routes rather dint need it due to  interlunes.  For instance  the 57 Laramie wouldn't need a charging sraruib because it ibterkines with the 73 Armitage which would have a least one charging station.

[busfan2847]

1 minute ago, Javi75 said:

Would every bus route in the city need electric charging stations like the 63 and 66 or would that depend on the electric bus maker? 

The bigger question is how you set up the infrastructure to recharge an all electric fleet from an electric distribution infrastructure that frequently fails to deliver our current needs - let alone an all-electric future.

With regard to re-charging on routes CTA said in the original report: -

"Charging operations should be centralized at bus garages to the extent feasible. This should be supplemented with a limited network of on-route charging locations."

[artthouwill]

12 hours ago, Busjack said:

Besides having nothing to do with 8350s, the question essentially the same as though you asked in 1938, about when CSL got small feeder buses, whether buses would replace streetcars in 20 years. Turns out, 20 years later, they did, and also that CSL/CTA made a mistake in 1947-1948, in buying 600 streetcars, which were scrapped and parts salvaged for L cars. Since people want to grouse here, what took so long to roll out the 5000s and 7000s, while L cars have been around for 130 years?

The more relevant question is why are U.S. TAs scrounging around for small quantities of electric buses, while New Flyer was able to commit for 621 and Nova Bus 1770 (Toronto and Quebec)(including options) in Canada.

More recently, Miami-Dade made a firm order for 100 XE60s. So, something must be available.

I think U.S. TAs have two issues.  First, they really don't seem to have a grasp "mechanically" how these  vusea operate or how to repair them.  The second thing is the enormous cost of infrastructure to support these vehicles.  Each garage needs multiple charging stations and most routes will require at least one charging station .  Some routes don't end ar a CTA owned facility so the question becomes where to put them?  Maybe in 4 to 10 years there will be enough improvement in miles per charge that the amount of charging stations actually needed could decline.  Like I said before, I marvel that Prudential and Ann can run Proterras 5 days a week for 7 years but CTA couldn't run a similar amount of Proterras for any length of time  since they've had them.  But they want to stop ordering diesels when they haven't figured out how to keep their Proterras on the street?

[busfan2847]

7 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

I think U.S. TAs have two issues.  First, they really don't seem to have a grasp "mechanically" how these  vusea operate or how to repair them.  The second thing is the enormous cost of infrastructure to support these vehicles.  Each garage needs multiple charging stations and most routes will require at least one charging station .  Some routes don't end ar a CTA owned facility so the question becomes where to put them?  Maybe in 4 to 10 years there will be enough improvement in miles per charge that the amount of charging stations actually needed could decline.  Like I said before, I marvel that Prudential and Ann can run Proterras 5 days a week for 7 years but CTA couldn't run a similar amount of Proterras for any length of time  since they've had them.  But they want to stop ordering diesels when they haven't figured out how to keep their Proterras on the street?

There needs to be a Grand Plan backed with serious money. In London 1000 of the 9000 buses in service are electric. This has involved a major expenditure in providing the recharging infrastructure which has been met by direct payments or grants at favorable terms by central government and local government to the private bus operators. There are no on-route chargers so far and all vehicles are recharged at garages. Duties have been changed to swap buses instead of just drivers so that the operation is optimized.

Electric motors are inherently less likely to break down compared to a diesel engine with more moving parts, and fluids. Yes it is a completely different environment which needs staff to be trained in how to operate and maintain them and I think this may be where cta is having problems. I do not understand why so few are on the road each day. There has been only a few occasions when more than 10 are in service at any one time.

The Aon shuttle is ideal for electric operation - buses are needed for a few hours morning and afternoon over a short distance, with a midday break allowing recharging.

[Javi75]

2 hours ago, busfan2847 said:

The bigger question is how you set up the infrastructure to recharge an all electric fleet from an electric distribution infrastructure that frequently fails to deliver our current needs - let alone an all-electric future.

With regard to re-charging on routes CTA said in the original report: -

"Charging operations should be centralized at bus garages to the extent feasible. This should be supplemented with a limited network of on-route charging locations."

Also in the instance of the most extreme winter weather in Chicago, can an electric bus handle those conditions without system wide breakdowns. I remember when I was kid the Nabis were going down with a huge portion of the fleet dated so it was system wide breakdowns some days. CTA was lucky the 1000s were reliable and coming in fast or else bus service would’ve been tough. 

[Busjack]

2 hours ago, Javi75 said:

Also in the instance of the most extreme winter weather in Chicago, can an electric bus handle those conditions without system wide breakdowns. I remember when I was kid the Nabis were going down with a huge portion of the fleet dated so it was system wide breakdowns some days. CTA was lucky the 1000s were reliable and coming in fast or else bus service would’ve been tough. 

Pace went to Duluth MN and says they run fine there. Canadian cities have at least as cold weather as here, and usually more snow.

Those NABIs were prematurely retired junk, so I don't know how they prove anything, especially about 2040.

[Javi75]

9 minutes ago, Busjack said:

Pace went to Duluth MN and says they run fine there. Canadian cities have at least as cold weather as here, and usually more snow.

Those NABIs were prematurely retired junk, so I don't know how they prove anything, especially about 2040.

It’ll be interesting to see if it works, CTA needs to build the infrastructure for it, can an electric bus run express on LSD from 67th to 11th?  A lot of work would need to be done to electrify the entire bus system. 

[Busjack]

27 minutes ago, Javi75 said:

can an electric bus run express on LSD from 67th to 11th?

Why not? As L trains and electric cars prove, electric motors accelerate better than internal combustion engines, and generate more torque on start-up. Range is from 75 (first version of the 700s) to 275 miles. Last I know, the distance you listed is 7 miles.

One would think that, after the environmentally deprived areas, DLSD would be the next place where one would want to eliminate emissions.

Are you just throwing stuff at the wall without doing any research?

[jajuan]

On 6/27/2023 at 7:00 PM, Javi75 said:

Is a large number of electric buses realistic for CTA going off how long it for the 600s to roll out or the 700s? 

Bringing this into the proper thread, it will have to be because CTA has committed itself to being one of the TAs that transitions to an all electric bus fleet by mid 2030s to early 2040s. In CTA's case, the goal is 2040.

[Busjack]

Press release that CTA received a federal grant for 6 chargers for the 95th/Red Line bus terminal.

[Busjack]

On 10/26/2022 at 8:06 PM, Tcmetro said:

CTA is still awaiting the 6 electrics from last year's LowNo grant and 10 from this year's grant. The budget also says that CTA has $68 million in CMAQ grants from 2020 and 2022 for electric buses.

If the existing and funded electric buses are considered as replacements for the 1000s, then that accounts for the 100 buses.

CTAs fleet plans have never been terribly transparent, and seem to be relatively flexible compared to other agencies.

 

On 12/22/2022 at 4:28 PM, Busjack said:

Your comment led me to search for the reference:

 

Still didn't explain how these became Nova Bus, apparently without a solicitation, instead of exercising options for Proterras. One clue may be in 49 USC 5339(c)(8) :

 

Maybe CTA and Nova Bus "partnered."

The 2022 grant was better publicized (FTA) :

 

 

On 12/22/2022 at 6:48 PM, Tcmetro said:

The 6 Novas were mentioned in a presentation to the board last November:

 

https://www.transitchicago.com/assets/1/6/Nov2021_-_Electric_Bus_Update_for_Board_Meeting.pdf

 

On 7/6/2023 at 11:55 AM, Busjack said:

Press release that CTA received a federal grant for 6 chargers for the 95th/Red Line bus terminal.

We know this much. We also know that Nova Bus is pulling out of the US in 2025.

Since many posters engage in uninformed speculation, I'll engage in a semi-informed one:

Despite several small orders on Nova Bus's website (noted here), there isn't a release that CTA ordered any. Also, there isn't a CT Board ordinance authorizing a contract.

Negative evidence isn't conclusive, and is subject to change, but i were going to the sports book, I would bet against these buses being Novas.

 

 

 

 

 

[Sam92]

15 hours ago, Busjack said:

Question: Since when the electric buses were 8350s? Or vice versa?

 

16 hours ago, artthouwill said:

I agree.   I believe 2040 was right aggressive and optimistic for being fully electric.  I believe CTA should understand at least one additional set of diesel buses    if they wish to order a small number of electrical, that's dune.  Byr they need a comprehensive plan for charging infrastructure.

 

16 hours ago, YoungBusLover said:

Yeah it isn't detrimental to service but after all this P/R over the past year or so about them, One would think that you'd see practically an entire fleet of Electric buses out by now almost. Ya can't preach going "Fully electric by 2040." while the beta stage fleet as I call it is sitting Idle every other week.Those charging stations to me are one of the reasons reasons why they haven't been running more in mass like they once did earlier in the spring and summer. It's hard to keep electric buses on the road when the quote on quote infrastructure can't even charge the buses properly let alone the buses themselves at times not being able to keep a charge for over 6 - 12 hours. 

 

8 hours ago, Sam92 said:

 

 

 I think at some point the all electric deadline is gonna be pushed back. I gotta find the link to post; but basically if the conversion proves too troublesome, CTA and other TAs can ask for an extension of some sorts and let the Feds know that "we can't realistically" implement this by the date due to trouble getting infrastructure up to date in time etc. The article basically tells of similar issues in other places and says that if it all electric implementation collides with providing consistent service then CTA should prioritize service as they have a loophole and won't be penalized for not meeting the deadline. On a side note, even though the 600s aren't exactly getting rolled out at a fast clip it seems like an improvement over the 700s ??

 

Hilariously my retarded self seen the topic should've moved here and STILL put my reply in the wrong thread but anyway here's the link I was referring to as far as CTA having to face the decision of meeting the all electric deadline or providing reliable service with conventional buses:

https://chi.streetsblog.org/2023/09/14/the-cta-cant-afford-to-let-electric-buses-hold-up-reliable-service