Nov. 2023 Yellow Line Collision

[artthouwill]

Based on my past observations,  I have never seen a  can signal go to a red stop on a train traveling 55nph. Even approaching a red signal, rge cab signals ar least has the operator slow ri 30mph.  That this happened here is odd.  But I'm inclined to believe that the stoppage or slow down was based on the Red signal ahead and did not account for the snowfighter in the tracks.  To me  it doesn't appear that snowfighter could be detected at all unless ir was coupled to an actual train.  Had the snowfighter not been there,  the Yellow Line train may have been able to stop at the red signal on the full brake application or may have needed the emergency brake application at a much lower speed.

My thing is, if CTA knows ( or knew) the snowfighter isn't detectable,  why did they not

A. Have speed restrictions in place along that stretch?

B  Have flaggers out for operators to see?

C.  Radio communication with control and the sniwfighter to allow control to notify operators of their exact location?

 

[Busjack]

2 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

My thing is, if CTA knows ( or knew) the snowfighter isn't detectable, 

That's the question, but the NTSC didn't say that. It said "The passenger train was traveling southbound about 54 mph when the operator received a stop command from the signal system because of the snow removal machine stopped on the track about 2,150 feet ahead." As I said, there was a red signal at least before Ridge Ave.

Something must have triggered something. However, I reread @Sam92's comment about approaching "the throat of the yard." The collision occurred right under the turnback track, so the train would have reached the junction north of the platform in a few hundred feet (Google map),

[artthouwill]

6 minutes ago, Busjack said:

That's the question, but the NTSC didn't say that. It said "The passenger train was traveling southbound about 54 mph when the operator received a stop command from the signal system because of the snow removal machine stopped on the track about 2,150 feet ahead." As I said, there was a red signal at least before Ridge Ave.

Something must have triggered something. However, I reread @Sam92's comment about approaching "the throat of the yard." The collision occurred right under the turnback track, so the train would have reached the junction north of the platform in a few hundred feet (Google map),

If there was a red signal before Ridge then this should have never happened. Cab signals will alert the operator to slow down well before he reaches that red signal.  So at best that signal would have been amber which would have allowed the operator to continue at whatever speed he was traveling.  I don't believe the snowfighter activated anything.   But let's assume that it did .  The cab signals should have alerted the operator to slow down way sooner than it did.  It should have been a gradual slowdown from at least Dodge.  There's no way a signal system should take a train from full speed straight to a full stop.

U will go one step further and assume that the Ridge signal was red.  Again,  cab signals should alert the operator to stop.  If he doesn't activate his brakes in 3 seconds,  the Deadman brakes should automatically engage and bring the train to a stop.  Rgw operator wouldn't have to blow the red signal for that to happen  .  There are pieces missing in this puzzle 

When the Yellow Line reopens u dylly expect to see  more signals east of McCormick  including at Dodge and Asbury.

[dailycommuter62]

CTA will reduce train speeds on Yellow Line in response to crash, federal investigators say

The whole line is getting reduced to 35 mph, no timetable for reopening. I guess the line isn't getting reopened until that standard is installed by mow.

[artthouwill]

4 minutes ago, dailycommuter62 said:

CTA will reduce train speeds on Yellow Line in response to crash, federal investigators say

The whole line is getting reduced to 35 mph, no timetable for reopening. I guess the line isn't getting reopened until that standard is installed by mow.

Personally I think it's an overreaction.   I agree with reducing speeds approaching and in the accident area, but the entire line?  Perhaps this is temporary  

[Sam92]

4 hours ago, Busjack said:

As I mentioned to our New Yawker, the last wayside block signals were removed by CTA in about 1998 (were in the Milwaukee-Dearborn subway) and everything is under ATC cab signals.

What else that doesn't add up to me was that the prior description of red was an enforced stop and then 15 mph, not head through at 15 mph (which this train wasn't doing if the impact was at 27 mph). Your correspondent mentioned something about ATC Bypass, which might enter into it, but he said there was no evidence of running on Bypass.

Yeah I know the old block signal system was updated but aren't the lighted signals still wayside but just for the ATC system?

[Busjack]

27 minutes ago, dailycommuter62 said:

CTA will reduce train speeds on Yellow Line in response to crash, federal investigators say

The whole line is getting reduced to 35 mph, no timetable for reopening. I guess the line isn't getting reopened until that standard is installed by mow.

You left out 25 mph near Howard, relevant to a prior point that the impact speed was still too fast considering that is approaching a junction.

19 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

Personally I think it's an overreaction.   I agree with reducing speeds approaching and in the accident area, but the entire line?  Perhaps this is temporary  

I don't think so. While a resumption date hasn't been stated, 35 mph is better than being stuck on a 97 or Yellow Line Shuttle bus. Howard Street is too congested as it is.

[Busjack]

3 minutes ago, Sam92 said:

Yeah I know the old block signal system was updated but aren't the lighted signals still wayside but just for the ATC system?

Only at interlockings. Again, this isn't the NY of the future.

Also, if you go back to pre-1976, only parts of the system that had wayside block signals were the 2 subways and Congress median line. The old parts of the L were not signalized, which is why so many accidents occurred, especially on the SSM.

[Sam92]

1 minute ago, Busjack said:

Only at interlockings. Again, this isn't the NY of the future.

Yeah I know this is different from what new York is installing just figuring out what is what lmao. So what about the signals not near an interlocking like in the subways? I can't think of hand of any signals above ground that aren't at an interlocking except for a repeater signal. I thought a wayside signal was basically any signal along the side of the tracks my bad lol 

[Sam92]

49 minutes ago, dailycommuter62 said:

CTA will reduce train speeds on Yellow Line in response to crash, federal investigators say

The whole line is getting reduced to 35 mph, no timetable for reopening. I guess the line isn't getting reopened until that standard is installed by mow.

 

41 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

Personally I think it's an overreaction.   I agree with reducing speeds approaching and in the accident area, but the entire line?  Perhaps this is temporary  

You know back in 2010-2011 the whole orange line was restricted to 35mph as a precaution because of a potential defect that could lead to something worse if not addressed. I wonder if this what they avoided on the orange line?

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, Sam92 said:

Yeah I know this is different from what new York is installing just figuring out what is what lmao. So what about the signals not near an interlocking like in the subways? I can't think of hand of any signals above ground that aren't at an interlocking except for a repeater signal. I thought a wayside signal was basically any signal along the side of the tracks my bad lol 

I was working on memory. I decided to took at Riding the Rails, and while starting around here there aren't any wayside signals in the Milwaukee subway, darn around 17:22 there are some at Dearborn and Washington (see below). Basically. as of 2019, only in or near the stations from Clark/Lake to Clinton. So I retract to that extent.

[Sam92]

57 minutes ago, Busjack said:

I was working on memory. I decided to took at Riding the Rails, and while starting around here there aren't any wayside signals in the Milwaukee subway, darn around 17:22 there are some at Dearborn and Washington (see below). Basically. as of 2019, only in or near the stations from Clark/Lake to Clinton. So I retract to that extent.

Ahh ok. I know they're still in the state st Subway as well. I was under the impression that any wayside signal whether at an interlocking or not was basically reinforcing what the cab signal is showing/an extra layer of protection. 

[Sam92]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

I was working on memory. I decided to took at Riding the Rails, and while starting around here there aren't any wayside signals in the Milwaukee subway, darn around 17:22 there are some at Dearborn and Washington (see below). Basically. as of 2019, only in or near the stations from Clark/Lake to Clinton. So I retract to that extent.

From the comment it looks like the removal of all wayside signals under Milwaukee was a coincidence but the ATC wasn't meant to replace these signals but just add a layer of safety if the motorman doesn't respond in a timely manner hence the automatic stop if the speed isn't lowered in time along with a track trip next all the wayside signals. State has them all through out so that's why I was confused at first ?

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, Sam92 said:

From the comment it looks like the removal of all wayside signals under Milwaukee was a coincidence but the ATC wasn't meant to replace these signals but just add a layer of safety if the motorman doesn't respond in a timely manner hence the automatic stop if the speed isn't lowered in time along with a track trip next all the wayside signals. State has them all through out so that's why I was confused at first ?

 

From the video, no. The Real Time Video there's a beep right before the train enters Clark/Lake. Then there's a stretch  with wayside signals, with a yellow light but no beep Iat Monroe), Once it leaves. the wayside signals are gone. There aren't any between Damen/Milwaukee and that point, nor out on the Congress segment (noting that the stretch has been redone since then).

If I were to surmise anything, it has to do with the closely spaced station stops.

[Sam92]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

From the video, no. The Real Time Video there's a beep right before the train enters Clark/Lake. Then there's a stretch  with wayside signals, with a yellow light but no beep Iat Monroe), Once it leaves. the wayside signals are gone. There aren't any between Damen/Milwaukee and that point, nor out on the Congress segment (noting that the stretch has been redone since then).

If I were to surmise anything, it has to do with the closely spaced station stops.

Ahh so at this point outside of those area you're pretty much saying signals control mainly interlockings and select switches then? And ATC handles the rest? 

[Busjack]

10 hours ago, Sam92 said:

Ahh so at this point outside of those area you're pretty much saying signals control mainly interlockings and select switches then? And ATC handles the rest? 

Yes. I was surprised by the downtown subways, but I must have got off at Clark/Lake.

[Busjack]

Sun-Times article on what Carter said at a CT Board meeting about the accident. I don't quite get his comment about the same conditions don't exist anywhere else in the system, in that if it takes so many feet for a 5000 to stop from 55 mph, that applies elsewhere, unless the 6 cars assigned to the Yellow Line are different. (Maybe leaves don't fall from the Dan Ryan.) Anyway, the reduced speed proposal was made by CTA, and was not an NTSB recommendation, and service is not resuming soon.

CTA statement on which the above was based.

[Sam92]

8 hours ago, Busjack said:

Sun-Times article on what Carter said at a CT Board meeting about the accident. I don't quite get his comment about the same conditions don't exist anywhere else in the system, in that if it takes so many feet for a 5000 to stop from 55 mph, that applies elsewhere, unless the 6 cars assigned to the Yellow Line are different. (Maybe leaves don't fall from the Dan Ryan.) Anyway, the reduced speed proposal was made by CTA, and was not an NTSB recommendation, and service is not resuming soon.

CTA statement on which the above was based.

Maybe since yellow line runs 4 trains max they figured they could get away with shorter stopping distance there vs other parts of the system. Also since a lot of signals across the system were updated in the recent decades outside of the yellow line that could play a part. NSM has new signals, Dan Ryan got updated signals, along with congress, Ohare, Milwaukee and state subways. Orange line was restricted 10 years ago as a safety precaution for a signal issue so that leaves Purple, yellow and green as the only lines with older signals. Maybe that's why he claims only yellow has the issue? 

[Sam92]

Found the orange line incident I was referring to a while back 

[Busjack]

WGN investigation on why the Yellow Line is still closed. They didn't find much other than NTSB turned over the site to CTA and CTA has denied FOIA requests, including for security camera video.

[Busjack]

CTA Press Release: Yellow Line reopens Jan. 5.

[Rail Introvert]

13 hours ago, Busjack said:

CTA Press Release: Yellow Line reopens Jan. 5.

Well about damn time!!

[strictures]

3 hours ago, Rail Introvert said:

Well about damn time!!

But running at at measly 30 MPH, which almost doubles the running time to Oakton & Dempster.  No need to cut the speed WB & the only place to cut the speed EB is at Asbury to the Howard Yard.

[Sam92]

2 hours ago, strictures said:

But running at at measly 30 MPH, which almost doubles the running time to Oakton & Dempster.  No need to cut the speed WB & the only place to cut the speed EB is at Asbury to the Howard Yard.

Still beats a shuttle bus. At least they're taking safety precautions 

[Busjack]

52 minutes ago, Sam92 said:

Still beats a shuttle bus. At least they're taking safety precautions 

At least according to the riders interviewed by the media. Using 97 as a proxy, it''s 32 minutes from Dempster to Howard, while the Yellow Line might have gone from a scheduled 9 minutes to 13.