CTA Bus Vision Project

[YoungBusLover]

14 hours ago, renardo870 said:

96 minutes???? 😱😱

That sounds about right.

[Busjack]

6 minutes ago, YoungBusLover said:

. I don't know if short turns at North Ave makes sense

There was a time when some 3 buses went to North Ave.,  which also answers the "south side garage" point. In the 70s, there were some 2s that started at Irving Park. So, it's possible, but to get back to the topic, the consultants will have to figure out how much downtown service is needed, compared to, say, how much hospital service (i.e., IMD, UChicago, Northwestern/Lurie/Shirley Ryan, Swedish).

[strictures]

4 hours ago, YoungBusLover said:

Call me crazy but should the 22/36 even go into the downtown area anymore since they run practically parallel to many other feeders besides each other coming from the northside?  There has to be another way to supplement service that is beneficial for everyone. I don't know if short turns at North Ave makes sense for either one or let alone Clark/Lake as it is rail station transfer hub in a sense. What are the weekly rush period ridership numbers heading back NB from Lasalle street Metra Station?  Seeing all these buses just piled together during the morning rush on one side of both routes is a bit troubling to me. It should not be that way at all. There diffidently needs to be a review on this.

 

 

Yes both the 22 & 36 should go all the way downtown. Both carry large passenger loads, as I ride them both all the time.

Clark is the backbone of all North Side bus service, runs 24/7 year round.

[artthouwill]

5 hours ago, YoungBusLover said:

Call me crazy but should the 22/36 even go into the downtown area anymore since they run practically parallel to many other feeders besides each other coming from the northside?  There has to be another way to supplement service that is beneficial for everyone. I don't know if short turns at North Ave makes sense for either one or let alone Clark/Lake as it is rail station transfer hub in a sense. What are the weekly rush period ridership numbers heading back NB from Lasalle street Metra Station?  Seeing all these buses just piled together during the morning rush on one side of both routes is a bit troubling to me. It should not be that way at all. There diffidently needs to be a review on this.

 

 

I don't know what the numbers are now, but prepandemic the 22 and 36 use to have crush loads leaving downtown and dropping off in Lincoln Park  along with the 156.   The 11 for some reason couldn't attract decent traffic causing it too get its southern terminal cut from downtown to Clark/ Wisconsin then combined with the 37 only to get cut back to the Brown Line Western Station.   There's no north south bus service to downtown west of Clark Street  other than the 37 south of Fullerton and none north of Fullerton.  The Red Line Howard branch is the busiest in the system so do service on the 22 and the 36 is justified seeing that Lakeview and Lincoln Park are two of the highest density neighborhoods in the city.  That's not counting the high density Gold Coast and River North neighborhoods.   Short turns are the answer but the question is whether to terminate buses halfway from downtown or terminate buses from the north halfway to downtown ( not going downtown at all  but just a local route).?  Or a combination of both?

[YoungBusLover]

16 hours ago, artthouwill said:

I don't know what the numbers are now, but prepandemic the 22 and 36 use to have crush loads leaving downtown and dropping off in Lincoln Park  along with the 156.   The 11 for some reason couldn't attract decent traffic causing it too get its southern terminal cut from downtown to Clark/ Wisconsin then combined with the 37 only to get cut back to the Brown Line Western Station.   There's no north south bus service to downtown west of Clark Street  other than the 37 south of Fullerton and none north of Fullerton.  The Red Line Howard branch is the busiest in the system so do service on the 22 and the 36 is justified seeing that Lakeview and Lincoln Park are two of the highest density neighborhoods in the city.  That's not counting the high density Gold Coast and River North neighborhoods.   Short turns are the answer but the question is whether to terminate buses halfway from downtown or terminate buses from the north halfway to downtown ( not going downtown at all  but just a local route).?  Or a combination of both?

That is a tough one, adding more service is always the go to answer but the street it serves has a complex infrastructure to managing day to day. 

 

17 hours ago, strictures said:

Yes both the 22 & 36 should go all the way downtown. Both carry large passenger loads, as I ride them both all the time.

Clark is the backbone of all North Side bus service, runs 24/7 year round.

At the very least one should differ from the other to create quicker serivce along the routes heading into downtown. The 36 would be my target as far as having it short turn somewhere where it would be beneficial. Either North Ave or Chicago/State. Have every other 36 terminate there. The 22 is the backbone and can handle any excess flow from the 36. Have some 22s short turn at North Ave during peak periods and Cub game days.  Just throwing out Suggestions. Decades ago before runs started terminating at Root on Halsted there was a similar issue I do recall about the lack of NB service on the 8 so maybe that can be implemented for either one or both of the routes.

[Sam92]

18 hours ago, artthouwill said:

I don't know what the numbers are now, but prepandemic the 22 and 36 use to have crush loads leaving downtown and dropping off in Lincoln Park  along with the 156.   The 11 for some reason couldn't attract decent traffic causing it too get its southern terminal cut from downtown to Clark/ Wisconsin then combined with the 37 only to get cut back to the Brown Line Western Station.   There's no north south bus service to downtown west of Clark Street  other than the 37 south of Fullerton and none north of Fullerton.  The Red Line Howard branch is the busiest in the system so do service on the 22 and the 36 is justified seeing that Lakeview and Lincoln Park are two of the highest density neighborhoods in the city.  That's not counting the high density Gold Coast and River North neighborhoods.   Short turns are the answer but the question is whether to terminate buses halfway from downtown or terminate buses from the north halfway to downtown ( not going downtown at all  but just a local route).?  Or a combination of both?

Here's a funny idea. Cut SB 36 at diversey. Cut 24 south of 35th and extend it to nature museum. Run it with some of the excess artics. 24 would send every other bus south of Harrison. Bridgeport to downtown ridership on the 24 seems to be the strongest in that route and tapers off south of there. Having all artics south of diversey should help with the crowds on Clark. Rush hour 22's can run between Irving Park and Lake in the peak to have empty buses in the crowded segments.  Extend 34 to south Holland/83rd along with cutting back 29 to the same so you still retain the connection to that area for the stores that are left and somewhat out the way. 

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, YoungBusLover said:

That is a tough one, adding more service is always the go to answer but the street it serves has a complex infrastructure to managing day to day. 

 

At the very least one should differ from the other to create quicker serivce along the routes heading into downtown. The 36 would be my target as far as having it short turn somewhere where it would be beneficial. Either North Ave or Chicago/State. Have every other 36 terminate there. The 22 is the backbone and can handle any excess flow from the 36. Have some 22s short turn at North Ave during peak periods and Cub game days.  Just throwing out Suggestions. Decades ago before runs started terminating at Root on Halsted there was a similar issue I do recall about the lack of NB service on the 8 so maybe that can be implemented for either one or both of the routes.

One thing that could help is that a second garage  could be assigned to the 36 as before and maybe the 22 also.  However,  CTA seems to be adverse to that idea as there's been a serious reduction of K operated 151 trips.   Certainly K could operate trips on the 36 between downtown and Waveland and Halsted.  Perhaps K could operate trips in the 22 between downtown and Belmont/Halsted.

[Sam92]

1 hour ago, artthouwill said:

One thing that could help is that a second garage  could be assigned to the 36 as before and maybe the 22 also.  However,  CTA seems to be adverse to that idea as there's been a serious reduction of K operated 151 trips.   Certainly K could operate trips on the 36 between downtown and Waveland and Halsted.  Perhaps K could operate trips in the 22 between downtown and Belmont/Halsted.

I mean only thing garage changes affect is who does what. NP already has Belmont to Downtown service on 22 in the rush. I think one of those needs to be split to improve reliability instead of a long run between northside and downtown. Heck I'll take my earlier proposal and tweak the split 36 to feed Belmont and loop via Wellington and go back. Same with the new 24.The few that ride these routes all the way downtown for whatever reason could get fed into the rail lines (I'm guessing these are people that find the trains too far away from they're start points. Same can be said for Clark south of Belmont. Those riders are too far from the red line which probably explains the dense crowds) with RPM phase one wrapping up soon Argyle middle can put in some empty reds to handle the extra riders at Belmont. 

[artthouwill]

31 minutes ago, Sam92 said:

I mean only thing garage changes affect is who does what. NP already has Belmont to Downtown service on 22 in the rush. I think one of those needs to be split to improve reliability instead of a long run between northside and downtown. Heck I'll take my earlier proposal and tweak the split 36 to feed Belmont and loop via Wellington and go back. Same with the new 24.The few that ride these routes all the way downtown for whatever reason could get fed into the rail lines (I'm guessing these are people that find the trains too far away from they're start points. Same can be said for Clark south of Belmont. Those riders are too far from the red line which probably explains the dense crowds) with RPM phase one wrapping up soon Argyle middle can put in some empty reds to handle the extra riders at Belmont. 

While I get the desire to better serve the north side local market,  the fact remains that the heaviest ridership on those two routes is between downtown and Lincoln Park .  You also have to consider that both routes are handled by North Park which is up by Foster.   That's why I mentioned the short turns out of Limits which provided a somewhat better level of service south of Diversey along Clark Street.  Clark and Broadway are the easternmost commercial strip on the north side.  

The 3 used to have all day short turns at 30th and then Michael Reese Hospital,  but the bulk of the demand for the 3 was to and from downtown.   The short turns at 30th and Reese also short turned at 81st.  To me that made zero sense.   I thought all trips from downtown should have terminated at 79th or 81st and the Reese short turns should have terminated at 95th.   Could the 22 short turn some SB buses at Clark/North abd terminated the downtown trips at Foster? I know @strictures woywouldn't like that ( he might agree to Devon) but the point is these full length routes seem inefficient. 

Perhaps you are on to something with extending the 24 north to maybe Clark/Wisconsin but I am not with curtailing the south side service since it provides service to those who would be cut off by the Dan Ryan,  Rock Island,  and the freight tracks to the west    There's three major gaps between Red Line stations there so the 24 is necessary during the week. 

[Sam92]

2 hours ago, artthouwill said:

While I get the desire to better serve the north side local market,  the fact remains that the heaviest ridership on those two routes is between downtown and Lincoln Park .  

That's what my proposal addresses. My proposal is using the extended 24 to provide the same service south of Diversey that 36 provides, replacing 36's 40ft runs with artics on the new 24 to increase capacity. And since the bus would start at Belmont people riding from Lincoln Park to Downtown get empty buses that aren't delayed by the narrow stretch of Broadway south of Montrose. Someone that far north on Broadway that wants to get downtown would be fed into the Belmont station to lessen the inconvenience. 

[Sam92]

3 hours ago, artthouwill said:

 

Perhaps you are on to something with extending the 24 north to maybe Clark/Wisconsin but I am not with curtailing the south side service since it provides service to those who would be cut off by the Dan Ryan,  Rock Island,  and the freight tracks to the west    There's three major gaps between Red Line stations there so the 24 is necessary during the week. 

I get that but there's no one riding even in the week.  I used to stay in Gresham and worked at Clark and Lake; rather than go to the red line I'd just cross the street and hop on the 24 (at rush hour PM) those buses were empty after cermak. Plus in the areas with the gaps there are hardly people that live in those gaps using it. 29 at least has riders in the stretch next to the Dan Ryan to justify it running concurrently

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, Sam92 said:

That's what my proposal addresses. My proposal is using the extended 24 to provide the same service south of Diversey that 36 provides, replacing 36's 40ft runs with artics on the new 24 to increase capacity. And since the bus would start at Belmont people riding from Lincoln Park to Downtown get empty buses that aren't delayed by the narrow stretch of Broadway south of Montrose. Someone that far north on Broadway that wants to get downtown would be fed into the Belmont station to lessen the inconvenience. 

When I was a kid, the 24 was actually the 22A before getting the number 24.  The 29 was actually the 36A before being renumbered.    The 36A actually ran all the way to 119th and State before the Dan Ryan Line opened.  The portion south of 95th became the 34 and the State Str.et portion eventually changed to 29.

 

[Sam92]

2 hours ago, artthouwill said:

When I was a kid, the 24 was actually the 22A before getting the number 24.  The 29 was actually the 36A before being renumbered.    The 36A actually ran all the way to 119th and State before the Dan Ryan Line opened.  The portion south of 95th became the 34 and the State Str.et portion eventually changed to 29.

 

So pace was the only thing going to altgeld or Riverdale?

[Busjack]

56 minutes ago, Sam92 said:

So pace was the only thing going to altgeld or Riverdale?

At one time South Suburban Safeway went to Altgeld and 34 went to 138/Leyden (in Chicago at the Riverdale border). At some point, they switched (Chicago Transit and Railfan says 1981 or 1985 on the CTA page,  and on the Pace page  that it was what became RTA 356, which was cut in the 1981 funding crisis, hence before Pace).

Quote

356 - Altgeld Gardens - was South Suburban Safeway Lines route F. Route originally formed in 1947 as branch of #353 route, serving newly opened Altgeld Gardens housing project. At the time, the only Chicago Surface Lines routes in the area were streetcars, and it was impractical for CSL to extend its streetcar line or provide its own connecting buses. For many years, this was the only bus route entirely within city of Chicago to be operated by a suburban bus company. This was also the only suburban bus route with all night service. ... In 1981 amidst RTA funding crisis, CTA began operating certain route #34 buses into Altgeld Gardens, replacing the overnight and Sunday #356 service. And effective 9/8/85, route #356 combined with route #353, operating through from 95th St. into south suburbs. Meanwhile, CTA began operating its #34 route into Altgeld Gardens, after previously operating that route south to 138th/Indiana.

 

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

At one time South Suburban Safeway went to Altgeld and 34 went to 138/Leyden (in Chicago at the Riverdale border). At some point, they switched (Chicago Transit and Railfan says 1981 or 1985 on the CTA page,  and on the Pace page  that it was what became RTA 356, which was cut in the 1981 funding crisis, hence before Pace).

 

To add to that,  that route ran from downtown via King Drive to 111th  and Michigan, 127th, Indiana and 139th to Eberhart and into Altgeld Gardens.  Late night and owl service ran between 63rd and King Drive and Altgeld Gardens. Passengers could connect with the Jackson Park Howard B trains to continue north.   

[strictures]

7 hours ago, Sam92 said:

That's what my proposal addresses. My proposal is using the extended 24 to provide the same service south of Diversey that 36 provides, replacing 36's 40ft runs with artics on the new 24 to increase capacity. And since the bus would start at Belmont people riding from Lincoln Park to Downtown get empty buses that aren't delayed by the narrow stretch of Broadway south of Montrose. Someone that far north on Broadway that wants to get downtown would be fed into the Belmont station to lessen the inconvenience. 

The 22 is always packed at the north end of the route.  Stop claiming that the largest ridership is from the Lincoln Park area.

[Sam92]

7 hours ago, strictures said:

The 22 is always packed at the north end of the route.  Stop claiming that the largest ridership is from the Lincoln Park area.

I left 22 alone in my proposal. 🤠 I'm proposing adding artics from another route to supplement the high ridership south of Lincoln Park while letting the 22 stay as is to handle the whole line

[MetroShadow]

On 7/13/2024 at 5:21 PM, Sam92 said:

So pace was the only thing going to altgeld or Riverdale?

Maybe an extra sticking point: do we bring back the 104 to backfill Altgeld-95 (or Kensington) until RLE is finished?

[Sam92]

25 minutes ago, MetroShadow said:

Maybe an extra sticking point: do we bring back the 104 to backfill Altgeld-95 (or Kensington) until RLE is finished?

Oh I was just asking who went where after 36A went away..BUT if we had bus lanes I'd do a south Michigan Express to downtown until the project was done 🤗

[Busjack]

2 hours ago, MetroShadow said:

Maybe an extra sticking point: do we bring back the 104 to backfill Altgeld-95 (or Kensington) until RLE is finished?

115 covers the same territory. Since the subject of South Suburban Safeway came up, 111 took care of the former 353 on King Dr.

2 hours ago, Sam92 said:

Oh I was just asking who went where after 36A went away..BUT if we had bus lanes I'd do a south Michigan Express to downtown until the project was done 🤗

Aside fum the question is (since this is the Vision project, not a reincarnation of where one wants to play with the map) where the ridership demand has shifted, I take "downtown" skeptically, unless it is out of downtown (maybe bring back the 127 Circulator, but run it properly), I note:

• Downtown to what? The Indiana (actually Michigan Indiana, since there are stretches where they are one-way streets) buses to 63rd, 51st, Hyde Park, and now only to 35th. Apparently not a successful corridor.
• There is the Red Line .Before the Red Line, there was the 6 Garfield via Indiana Michigan and 6X Garfield Express and 111AX Vincennes Express via the expressway. 111AX seems most analogous to what you imply.
• Michigan is one block from State.

If anything seems responsive to Vision, it is the extension of 4 to 115th, and CTA finally figuring out that the X4 stop should be at 58th; at least both serve UC Hospital.

 

[strictures]

3 hours ago, Busjack said:

If anything seems responsive to Vision, it is the extension of 4 to 115th, and CTA finally figuring out that the X4 stop should be at 58th; at least both serve UC Hospital.

 

I had complained about the X4 stop being at 59th for years & got nowhere.  For some weird reason, many people here thought I wanted both 59th & 58th as a stop for the X4, but just 58th was the correct decision.  Why the CTA put the express stop at 59th, which almost no one uses & has no connecting E/W buses never made sense, other than than someone at 567 saying, just have it stop every half mile, no matter what.  Now that it does stop at 58th, I've actually used it a few times, but the service is very spotty, often absurdly long waits, so taking the local 4 ends up what I & others do.

[Busjack]

An example of where new development may justify more bus sevice: Sun-Times article about a proposed developmemt at 170 N. May St. and 175 N. Racine Ave., which lists other developments in the area. It's near the Morgan Green Line station, but the projected population density would seem to justify bringing back some version of the 23 Morgan-Racine bus, although I'm not sure to where (maybe to IMD or the shopping area near Roosevelt).

[Sam92]

22 hours ago, Busjack said:

An example of where new development may justify more bus sevice: Sun-Times article about a proposed developmemt at 170 N. May St. and 175 N. Racine Ave., which lists other developments in the area. It's near the Morgan Green Line station, but the projected population density would seem to justify bringing back some version of the 23 Morgan-Racine bus, although I'm not sure to where (maybe to IMD or the shopping area near Roosevelt).

I can see the old route doing fine and helping the Bridgeport-UIC crowds on Halsted (giving a direct route to the middle of the campus vs the edge where the 8 drops them off) but that forces K to take up the route. Or you can cut 31 and route the southern tail to lake Meadows so 77th can take over since they have the space for another route. 

[Busjack]

29 minutes ago, Sam92 said:

I can see the old route doing fine and helping the Bridgeport-UIC crowds on Halsted (giving a direct route to the middle of the campus vs the edge where the 8 drops them off) but that forces K to take up the route. Or you can cut 31 and route the southern tail to lake Meadows so 77th can take over since they have the space for another route. 

Again, the garage shouldn't dictate routes, especially since (1) I had proposed taking resources off LaSalle if the offices are never to return, and (2)  the new 23 would be at most 2 buses.

An IMD/UIC terminal loop would make sense.

 

[Sam92]

53 minutes ago, Busjack said:

 

An IMD/UIC terminal loop would make sense.

 

If it's just from Grand to IMD I doubt it would be able to sustain itself. West loop is expensive to live so I doubt any UIC students are living there, IMD to West loop Is probably taken care of by the Pink line Which is why I suggested the old route. I'm not using a garage to dictate a route moreso bringing a useful generator. Garages still matter to an extent as far as staffing