MCI's on #355.

[CircleSeven]

I notice the biggest pick up/drop off on the #352 Halsted is 95th/Red Line. And especially late at night until 12:50am, every bus is a load when the passengers get on over there. I swear the bus should be running every 15 minutes from 95th to Harvey at all times of operation. I mean come on this is the Highest ridership route in the Pace system. Why wouldn't they place the artics on that street. I mean over 3 years ago, they made all the Express trips (non-stop from 95th to Harvey via I-57) to go to the Heights but the buses continue to be a load. To stay on topic IMHO, the MCI's could work but the heavy getting on and getting off from the back of the bus would be stupid. But a Nabi Artic would be wonderful for the route. It wouldn't deal with any overcrowding or anything like that. Just to go up north too, the #290 Touhy would also be good with Artics.

[Busjack]

Three issues:

• If you are talking about a NABI articulated, that's $460,000 each for something that even CTA says is junk (no less pace2322). Even more for a 60BRT. Maybe a New Flyer, but Pace only buys from the low bidder.
  
• South Halsted is also served by the 8A, and if 352 was that loaded, and has to pass city riders, maybe CTA shouldn't have ceded a portion of its territory north of 127 by cutting back 108 to rush hour only. Maybe this is also an argument that Pace should be charging the same fare as CTA (although it probably doesn't matter if most of the traffic is transferring at 95th).
  
• We were previously discussing how Pace supposedly has no capital funds and had purchased buses that were too big for the routes to which they were assigned. If each route has a specialized bus and needs spares, consider what the capital demand would be.
  

I'll concede that if BRT is instituted on Halsted, it might need a larger bus. But that bus wouldn't stop every block, and certainly not within Chicago. And if the Red Line extension is ever built (and I'm not putting money on that), there wouldn't be any reason for 352 to go north of, say, 115th.

Maybe this is another case where the Auditor General was right in saying to coordinate service before spending any money.

[pace2322]

Come ride with me on run 213 10.2 on the 352 with 950 people i get on it. U dont need a 60 ft bus for that now do u?

[Busjack]

Come ride with me on run 213 10.2 on the 352 with 950 people i get on it. U dont need a 60 ft bus for that now do u?

If you get 950 people on it (per trip? at one time?) you need an 8 car Metra train, not a bus.

[trainman8119]

I am not disputing that the 352 is a heavily used route. My contention is

that you would not have 90 people at one time on a bus. You may

get 90 for the whole trip, but you would never get 90 people on

the bus and get the doors closed...probably not more than say

55-60, and that might be pushing it. I don't even think you

could get much more than that on a CTA bus wil the single seat configuration.

[MetroShadow]

The 352, I believe along with half of the arterial South routes, is infamously known for having a lot of people on this route, and the Bypass routing (at least on 352 and 359) is a borderline decent attempt to reduce hunching in the city and forces people to either take the CTA or

I would argue that PACE should've invested money in a couple of Artics, primarily on 352, 353, 359, and 349 (I could argue for 208 and 290, 322 and 307 also, but I don't think there is a need for it). I find that a lot of people use South routes, especially on those mentioned. I believe that the Bypass routing (in the city) was a decent attempt to streamline the process, force city riders on the CTA (even though 49A lacks that) and that it improves reliability.

here's what I think needs to work:

* The CTA and PACE seriously need to coordinate service on the south side. If Midway and 95/Ryan are hot spots for transfers across the South Cook/Will system, and in order to better coordinate service and reduce congestion and overpopulated buses, they seriously need to figure out 'what buses will work best where' and 'how to prevent bunching and overcrowding'.

* do what the CTA did when they replaced the 7100's in 2000: Buy second hand artics. I know this sounds far-fetched, but instead of considering a demo, you can buy a second-hand bus to be used on South (and some Northwest and West) routes. See how the public takes in how much they are needed, and in a few years purchase a bunch of newer ones. I know how the system is uniform with Orions (1 and 5) and NABI's (for the most part), but best to find out how an artic is really needed

* renew the 108 to make it a full-time operational route. If you want to reduce crowding in the city on a street with 3 1/2 buses, then make it work by fully utilizing the 4th route. Or, at least make use of the 348 and combine it (service to 95/Ryan to 127th to 138/Riverdale)

* Its sad that 355 (back on topic) might be reduced in the future. Seems like the only logical route to take from Downtown to the far southeast side. I would've argued to keep service as it is. I guess I would hypothesize that the changes would force the route onto 95th in the future instead of making it go all the way to Downtown (which is a shame).

(Can 95/Ryan hold anymore buses there?) It seems like its filled to capacity anyway...

[Busjack]

* do what the CTA did when they replaced the 7100's in 2000: Buy second hand artics. I know this sounds far-fetched, but instead of considering a demo, you can buy a second-hand bus to be used on South (and some Northwest and West) routes.

There is certainly no justification in Northwest. In fact, by concentrating the Orion VIs there, they have the lowest seating capacity 40 foot bus (due to the longitudinal seating and engine compartment), but routes such as 208, 250, and 270 are not overloaded. With regard to 290, you either have the Lincolnwood Mall service, which I argue should be CTA, except that CTA abandoned Touhy and is not productive on Lunt, and there is certainly no justification for dragging an articulated all the way to Park Ridge on alternate runs.

Also, the Seattle artics were an emergency stop gap until the 7500s could be received, and Pace certainly doesn't have the money to maintain buses that were in that condition.

* Its sad that 355 (back on topic) might be reduced in the future. Seems like the only logical route to take from Downtown to the far southeast side. I would've argued to keep service as it is. I guess I would hypothesize that the changes would force the route onto 95th in the future instead of making it go all the way to Downtown (which is a shame).

(Can 95/Ryan hold anymore buses there?) It seems like its filled to capacity anyway...

Apparently it doesn't work as a feeder to the South Shore. In South Suburban days, it stopped on the 87th ramp, but I don't know of anyone who transfered there. If the Red Line extension is not built, my guess would be 87th. Remember, no one could figure out how Pace could do away with or cut back 210, until it thought up the Berwyn Red Line station.

[pace2322]

Ok i give up with u guys. U dont know whats go one becasue u are not on that route 5 to 6 days a week. and thats 950 people for the 10 hours the run is.

[Busjack]

OK, so since a one way trip between Harvey and 95th takes about 40 minutes (according to the 352 Schedule, that would be 13 to 15 trips (allowing for layovers, but subject to breaks or any runs that go beyond Harvey to Hazel Crest or Chicago Heights, but obviously without the full load). That might mean 60 to 70 per trip, but again it is not clear whether some are getting on or off. 60 or 70 might be reasonable for a full load (35 seats on a 6200 and 35 standing).

[MetroShadow]

There is certainly no justification in Northwest. In fact, by concentrating the Orion VIs there, they have the lowest seating capacity 40 foot bus (due to the longitudinal seating and engine compartment), but routes such as 208, 250, and 270 are not overloaded. With regard to 290, you either have the Lincolnwood Mall service, which I argue should be CTA, except that CTA abandoned Touhy and is not productive on Lunt, and there is certainly no justification for dragging an articulated all the way to Park Ridge on alternate runs.

Also, the Seattle artics were an emergency stop gap until the 7500s could be received, and Pace certainly doesn't have the money to maintain buses that were in that condition.

Again, NW isn't the best option to send any buses other than what they have...although I have seen instances on 270 have been overloaded in the past, and 290 is spotty (Howard to Lincolnwood does have a lot, although Central Street and points west wouldn't justify it).

But I do understand the need for either larger buses or more frequencies out of South. We know of the problem down there, but the question is how willing will HQ be to alleviate the problem before it gets worse?

[Busjack]

But I do understand the need for either larger buses or more frequencies out of South. We know of the problem down there, but the question is how willing will HQ be to alleviate the problem before it gets worse?

Well they are having community forums on the restructuring plan, but the last I saw, the proposal was not on the Pace site.

[pace2322]

The run i am talking about are 5 round trips to Chicago Heights. About u are goping north at Harvey u have about 70+ on the bus on most of the trips. Also i have all the stuff about the routes there are redoing. But i cant show them on here so. U are not going to want to see what there want to do. Thats all i have to say.

[Buslover88]

I have to argee with pace2322 on this one. You guys don't know what it's like for that route unless you've ridden it.

Back on topic now, the MCI's aren't that good for #355...you need Artics for that route, and PACE should run their routes on a time schedule like CTA.

That's all I have to say, but some of this will get deleted...

[Busjack]

Back on topic now, the MCI's aren't that good for #355...you need Artics for that route, and PACE should run their routes on a time schedule like CTA.

Pace has a schedule, go to the Bus Schedules and Maps page. Also, Pace runs pretty close to schedule, although the IBS raised some questions about that.

Like CTA????? CTA may print schedules but never runs in accordance with them. Is bus bunching imaginary? Are you saying every 5 to 20 minutes, even though some Pace routes barely have the patronage for once an hour?

Do you really think one could manipulate an articulated through the Dan Ryan construction zones? I could see a few more MCIs (which are express buses that could run express to Sibley (15000 South)), but not an articulated.

[Busjack]

Also i have all the stuff about the routes there are redoing. But i cant show them on here so. U are not going to want to see what there want to do.

What's the problem? They are holding public forums, so the restructuring proposal is public information. As I noted, Pace (at least in the cases of the North Shore and Fox Valley initiatives) posted previous proposals, and the Press Release said at the bottom:

Comments can also be made through the website where the proposals will soon be available.

[Buslover88]

No, bus bunching is real. I know there are bus and time schedules, duh. Of course i'm saying they should run every 5 to 20 minutes, duh. And them buses can operate on Ashland or Stony Island, duh..

[Kevin]

No, bus bunching is real. I know there are bus and time schedules, duh. Of course i'm saying they should run every 5 to 20 minutes, duh. And them buses can operate on Ashland or Stony Island, duh..

Running Pace buses every 5 to 20 minutes would be a great idea if your goal was to bankrupt the agency. On a majority of their routes, the need simply isn't there.

[Buslover88]

I wouldn't want to bankrupt PACE, but seriously, service is so slow. People need to move, and PACE just doesn't cut that. That's why i'm always going to try to stay off PACE...

[Guest metralink]

I wouldn't want to bankrupt PACE, but seriously, service is so slow. People need to move, and PACE just doesn't cut that. That's why i'm always going to try to stay off PACE...

Before you comment on Pace service you should understand what limited resources they have to work with. They should get the respect for being able to perform mircles with what the region hands them.

In fact, I'm willing to bet they get more respect outside the region for achieving such a high recovery ratio for suburban service than they do inside this region.

Given what limited resources Pace has to work with they do a great job of putting out service. The innovations like bus preferences such as TSP and limiting stops will give advantage. The region has a lot to do with the issues due to policies and decisions made such as land use, allocations of regional funding, community involvment and the current RTA funding formula.

[Busjack]

I wouldn't want to bankrupt PACE, but seriously, service is so slow. People need to move, and PACE just doesn't cut that. That's why i'm always going to try to stay off PACE...

As an academy student in Logan Square, do you ever ride Pace? I remember your stories about 2 hour rides to go 2 miles on Diversey.

For the rest of you: Pace and Metra work only if you look at the schedules. Usually they run close to schedule. In the old days, you didn't need CTA schedules, because the buses ran every 3 to 10 minutes on most routes. Now you basically have that only on routes like 79. But it appears that otherwise the printed CTA schedules aren't worth much, due to lack of service control.

[CircleSeven]

The run i am talking about are 5 round trips to Chicago Heights. About u are goping north at Harvey u have about 70+ on the bus on most of the trips. Also i have all the stuff about the routes there are redoing. But i cant show them on here so. U are not going to want to see what there want to do. Thats all i have to say.

You are absolutely right about that. The changes with most of those routes are very tedious to even be explained. I actually went to the public hearings in Blue Island on Thursday Night and let me tell you nearly all but like one or maybe 2 routes won't even be touched. Nearly all of the routes would be restructured including our beloved #355. Like I stated, I'm not going to even get to the nitty-gritty to all of the routes that are going to be restructured since they are in this phase but they will have all the proposed changes on the website hopefully by Friday Night or next week. But when you'll see them, you will either be shocked or surprised. They will host another set of Hearings In May as they would see if all the routes would be suitable to restructured based on public input and hopefully by the Fall, all the changes would go in effect.

[Busjack]

If you look at juliehamos.org/transit, there was a House Committee on Mass Transit hearing on service standards, as it pertains to bus routes and schedules. There are both Pace and CTA presentations on how they implement service changes. Notable in the CTA presentation:

• Maximum load of 60 passengers for 40 ft. bus.
  
• Due to funding constraints, CTA schedules service to accommodate full standing loads during peak hours.
  

Apply that as you will to the preceding discussion.

[pace2322]

If you look at juliehamos.org/transit, there was a House Committee on Mass Transit hearing on service standards, as it pertains to bus routes and schedules. There are both Pace and CTA presentations on how they implement service changes. Notable in the CTA presentation:

• Maximum load of 60 passengers for 40 ft. bus.
  
• Due to funding constraints, CTA schedules service to accommodate full standing loads during peak hours.
  

Apply that as you will to the preceding discussion.

Yea bus its ok to have 70+ on our 6600s on the 352. We need more 2300s at south i am so sick of getting a 6600 on the 352.

[trainman8119]

Yea bus its ok to have 70+ on our 6600s on the 352. We need more 2300s at south i am so sick of getting a 6600 on the 352.

The thing to remember here is that while you may have 70+ on your

bus, you, at least, have a seat the whole time. And short of doing the work,

it shouldn't make that much of a difference if you have a 6600 with 35 standees

or a 2300 with 20...it is still overcrowded and you're probably not going to

make the time anyway !!!! Now, if you want to say you would just prefer to drive a

2300 (which I am sure is the case) over a NABI, then you have a beef.