Incorrectly Programmed Destination Signs

[Busjack]

Since I didn't want to make a legally unsupported assertion about the ADA, I did find the regulation at 49 CFR 38.39. I haven't put a ruler to a letter on a headsign on a bus, so maybe someone else can tell us if the two line signs conform to it.

It also seems like that regulation precludes my idea that the head and boarding signs can have different messages.

[cta_44499_FG]

Thanks for shedding some light on this. Another question: While I understand why one doesn't buy the 1991 type signs anymore, why did CTA switch from Twinvision to Luminator? It seems like the Twinvision ones have a larger choice of fonts and use lower case letters better, and thus are more readable.

i think its time to narrow down those 9 programs as older busses go bye - bye.

another thing that makes it time consuming is the fact that every time a route change takes place....apparently every bus in the system has to be programmed in the event a bus swap/transfer takes place (eg. 6402 gets swapped to Forest Glen for a day and winds up on 90 Harlem, rather than a home bus).

[Busjack]

A smart man told me years ago 'Your boss's priorities are your priorities'.

If having correctly-worded, intelligent destination readings was important to CTA upper management, it would be done.

Obviously, you don't live in Chicago. The bosses' current priority is getting money from Springfield, and the workers' current priority is not getting laid off. Then you have the myriad maintenance problems on both the bus and L, problems keeping schedule, labor relations problems, the pension plan, etc. Management hasn't shown a great ability to deal with those (although Huberman is now trying), so the destination signs would be down the priority list in any event.

I really doubt that the accuracy of destination signs is high on many transit authorities' priority list. I used to live in Rochester (your neighbor), where the old roll signs were split between the route and destination. However, the assumption was that a blank destination was the usual one. Thus, the driver acted like I was stupid when I asked if a bus marked "10 Dewey" was going to Dewey and Latta, and he said "does this say "10 Dewey To Latta"? Thus, "10 Dewey" meant "10 Dewey only to Ridge" although they had a "to Ridge" sign that they displayed on other routes. That didn't change when they went to electronic signs. (However, I haven't been there for 12 years so I can't say what the current situation is.)

Coming closer to home, Pace reformatted its signs a couple of years ago. They did do away with some inconsistencies, such as West Division having the first reading being only the route number centered. However, they still have the inconsistency of South and West divisions usually showing the route name, while Northwest and Southwest usually do not, as well as other inconsistencies such as some signs scrolling intermediate points on the route. However, it does seem consistent in the sense that most of the signs were "dumbed down" to the level of the 1990s 15 character display, still used on the Orion Is, such as "290 CUMBERLAND {over} CTA STATION" becoming "290 CUMBLND CTA." Again, we previously debated whether there was any rationale for that change. Pace has the additional problem that the IBS that selects the signs may not be in sync with the signs. I took me about a year to get them to correct that problem on one route, and they only corrected it in one direction. Hence, I still believe that CTA does a better job programming its signs, although there are still deficiencies. In any event, you would think that the electronic signs would be easier to correct, but that hasn't been the practice.

[Busjack]

another thing that makes it time consuming is the fact that every time a route change takes place....apparently every bus in the system has to be programmed in the event a bus swap/transfer takes place (eg. 6402 gets swapped to Forest Glen for a day and winds up on 90 Harlem, rather than a home bus).

This thread just keeps creating questions. Someone in another forum said that the sign controllers on CTA buses have the codes for the signs for all of the routes, not just the routes out of one garage. Is or isn't that the case? If it is the case (and assuming that the Clever Devices panel accepts the driver's identification as being on an F run) why would a bus swap make any difference?

Admittedly, though, if a route itself is changed (such as 90 was, when it was extended to the Green Line), and all the buses have all the codes, all would have to be reprogrammed.

[rmadisonwi]

This thread just keeps creating questions. Someone in another forum said that the sign controllers on CTA buses have the codes for the signs for all of the routes, not just the routes out of one garage. Is or isn't that the case? If it is the case (and assuming that the Clever Devices panel accepts the driver's identification as being on an F run) why would a bus swap make any difference?

Admittedly, though, if a route itself is changed (such as 90 was, when it was extended to the Green Line), and all the buses have all the codes, all would have to be reprogrammed.

There is only one *current* destination sign program per model (if you see a bus going around flashing "CTA PROGRAM 8/26/07" or something like that, you'll know when that sign was updated...which would still be wrong because buses aren't supposed to drive around like that, but I digress...). So, the destination signs on the New Flyers and NABIs, provided they have been updated with the latest program, would all share the exact same codes. In fact, even between the different models of destination signs, the same codes are supposed to give you the same reading.

So, the South Shops guy will create code 9AB, which will read "X SOMEWHERE TO WHEREVER," and have to program that code on the Vultrons, the Luminators, the Twin Visions, etc., and then send that program out to the garages, and they'll put it on the buses. It's a lot simpler to maintain one program with all of the codes for every route, than to make garage-specific programs. The limitation with roll signs was the size of the roll (either being too long to scroll through the different possibilities, or perhaps even being physically too large of a roll to fit in the signbox). The limitation with the electronic signs is the memory used up by the program. While I'm told that the Vultrons may be running out of room with all of the various codes programmed in (not being familiar with how those signs are programmed, I wouldn't know how true that is; but they're reusing old codes now to replace signs that are no longer needed), the Luminators should have plenty of room available for more codes.

Usually once per pick, there is a new program sent out. Some garages are better than others at getting that program installed on the buses. They have to physically install the program on every bus. I don't know if wireless distribution is available for destination signs yet (the Clever Devices system is updated wirelessly). With the Luminators, I think it's as simple as plugging in a flash card. With the Vultrons, the process might be a bit more labor intensive. Nevertheless, each bus should be able to display any sign for any route in the system, provided that the program is up to date.

[cta_44499_FG]

This thread just keeps creating questions. Someone in another forum said that the sign controllers on CTA buses have the codes for the signs for all of the routes, not just the routes out of one garage. Is or isn't that the case? If it is the case (and assuming that the Clever Devices panel accepts the driver's identification as being on an F run) why would a bus swap make any difference?

Admittedly, though, if a route itself is changed (such as 90 was, when it was extended to the Green Line), and all the buses have all the codes, all would have to be reprogrammed.

It is not a question.

I just said what u seem to be calling a question. I don't need you to explain anything when I work for the company (which i'm assumming is obvious.)

I am stating the fact that any reprogramming would have to be sent throughout the system so that ALL busses have it in the event a bus gets swapped. I am not questioning what happens if a bus gets swapped or whatever.

Please be sure you understand what I am saying before you judge. If you're not sure, ask. Thanks.

[busfan4022]

Oh cybafight.

Anyway, I rode 87th street bus and instead of saying Paulina it says Pauli.

If that even counts. >.> <.<

[Busjack]

It is not a question.

Again, I didn't say that. It did raise the two new questions in my reply that you quoted and that rmadisonwi so ably answered.

[busfan4022]

Lets forget about that, and move on with our lives. Shall we?

<.<

>.>

Any whoot I saw a weird destination sign today that said:

*X80 IRVING PARK

*X80 EXPRESS

*X80 TO HARLEM

*2006 Bus Roading Finals

Weird amirite? Huh? Am i? :o

[cta_44499_FG]

Lets forget about that, and move on with our lives. Shall we?

<.<

>.>

Any whoot I saw a weird destination sign today that said:

*X80 IRVING PARK

*X80 EXPRESS

*X80 TO HARLEM

*2006 Bus Roading Finals

Weird amirite? Huh? Am i?

I'm friends with the operator who sets that. First off, typo....it's "2006 Bus Roadeo Finals". Secondly, its a P/R code in the signage that is displayable on the Nova's but for some reason not the Flxibles.

[rmadisonwi]

I'm friends with the operator who sets that. First off, typo....it's "2006 Bus Roadeo Finals". Secondly, its a P/R code in the signage that is displayable on the Nova's but for some reason not the Flxibles.

That's probably one of the exceptions to the "any sign, any bus" rule. Since the Novas have different destination sign types than the Flxibles, the special PR code was only included with the program that goes onto the Nova buses, since Novas were used for the 2006 roadeo.

New Flyers were used for the 2007 Roadeo, so it's possible that any signs relevant to that competition would only show on the New Flyers, NABIs, and Optimas (which, I believe, all have the same sign program).

[RIPTA42]

Obviously a sign defect and not a programming error, but this was on #4451 at North Park Garage on Thursday morning:

50 ---ERROR---

50 TO BLUE ISL

[qwantae]

Dont forget this from 6000s from 103rd:

14 JEFFERY

14 JEFFERY EXPRESS

14 TO MADISON

Question: On the Nova LFs (6400s), are they ever going to fix those side destinations that don't change at all?

For example: "62 Archer", thats it, doesnt switch to "To Harlem"

[nflyer22]

Dont forget this from 6000s from 103rd:

14 JEFFERY

14 JEFFERY EXPRESS

14 TO MADISON

Question: On the Nova LFs (6400s), are they ever going to fix those side destinations that don't change at all?

For example: "62 Archer", thats it, doesnt switch to "To Harlem"

I'm pretty sure they have, since after the Spring Pick moves, the 62 Archer ones have been showing the northbound sign too (to Dear/Kinzie).

This brings up another question: How come, at least I've been noticing it on the 21 Cermak everyday (and maybe other routes too?), the westbound sign on the Novas don't work? I've only seen like maybe one or two that did work westbound, but the majority don't.

[nflyer22]

Today, while on the 29 State, I was standing with the other passengers on a New Flyer (forgot the number), and the announcement system wasn't working, neither was the outside destination signs (it said 29 STATE TO NAVY PIER, I was headed southbound). So while riding, we stopped at 9th Street, and the driver lifted up this "cover", the cover that held the Clever Devices control box, with the inside LED sign, and behind it, was a separate controller for the outdoor destination signs. The driver then changed the outside signs to 29 STATE-95TH. That was interesting to me, seeing how there's a separate controller for the outside signs, like the NABIs!

[jajuan]

Has anyone seen the #22 Clark sign on the New Flyer 1000's, it comes out as:

22 CLARK HOWARD/ (flip) 22 RED LINE, just like the #156 LaSalle signs use to be when they said:

156 LASALLE BELMONT/ (flip) 156 HALSTED.

When skimming through old posts in this thread to review some of the problems that were observed in the destinations signs now that they're controlled by the Clever Devices units, I came across this post from Jesi. The above issue is still a problem today seven months later. I was minor then since NP only had the 20 1000s they borrowed from 77th. But with a little over 100+ NF 1000s of its own today, it's a bigger problem than it was 7 months ago.

[geneking7320]

Has anyone noticed some incorrectly programmed destination signs lately? I've noticed a few on many of our busses, complete mistakes or just small errors:

For example:

47 47th/TH st..........: um, obvious here

93 N California/ 93 to HOWARD/KED is displayed on ALL northbound route 93 runs operated with a 1000 series or 5800 series that is equipped with an amber destination sign. However, some of them the side sign displays the correct info, which should be "93 N Calif/Dodge /93 to DAVIS PURPLE L"

201 CHICAGO AVE to HOWARD RED L: last time I checked the route was 201 CENTRAL/RIDGE

anyone notice others?

You posted this 6/13/2007 and sixteen days short of a year later the 6000s on route 47 STILL show the extra "TH". I noticed this last night on Cicero south of 47th street.

[Kevin]

Although never technically incorrect, the northbound destination sign for the #62 now reads "Kinzie/State" instead of "Dear/Kinzie". Not only is this change consistent with AVAS and Bus Tracker, but it also eliminates the awkward abbreviation of Dearborn.

[Busjack]

Although never technically incorrect, the northbound destination sign for the #62 now reads "Kinzie/State" instead of "Dear/Kinzie". Not only is this change consistent with AVAS and Bus Tracker, but it also eliminates the awkward abbreviation of Dearborn.

That shows that the philosophy of the terminal has changed. At one time, it was the main street it was on, followed by the turnback street. Thus, Dearborn/Kinzie. However, the philosophy now is whatever the timepoint is on the schedule, which is now Kinzie/State.

I got real confused by a 135 Clar-LaSalle {flip} 135 Clar-Wilson sign the other day, but that in fact conforms both with the old philosophy and the terminal on the schedule (although, why not just "To Wilson" on the second sign). One the other hand, 55N 55/Narr {flip} 55N 63/Narr did not conform to the philosophy, but does conform to the timepoint.

Of course, they could really mess us up, and bring back the old Archer-Downtown signs.

[jajuan]

That shows that the philosophy of the terminal has changed. At one time, it was the main street it was on, followed by the turnback street. Thus, Dearborn/Kinzie. However, the philosophy now is whatever the timepoint is on the schedule, which is now Kinzie/State.

I got real confused by a 135 Clar-LaSalle {flip} 135 Clar-Wilson sign the other day, but that in fact conforms both with the old philosophy and the terminal on the schedule (although, why not just "To Wilson" on the second sign). One the other hand, 55N 55/Narr {flip} 55N 63/Narr did not conform to the philosophy, but does conform to the timepoint.

Of course, they could really mess us up, and bring back the old Archer-Downtown signs.

Although I never really got why "Dear/Kinzie" was shown as the destination all this time anyway when the layover has been on State just south of Kinzie for years.

[MVTArider]

While not exactly an incorrectly programmed destination sign, one thing that I notice is the signs on the 30 ft. Gillig Advantages the Met Council runs up here blank out after each round. I have only seen it on those buses but not any other ones yet.

[Busjack]

While not exactly an incorrectly programmed destination sign, one thing that I notice is the signs on the 30 ft. Gillig Advantages the Met Council runs up here blank out after each round. I have only seen it on those buses but not any other ones yet.

Depends on the brand. Rochester NY ones that scrolled up and down did it. The ones that scrolled left to right didn't. Also complicating this was that some of the controllers were changed. I'm sure all those 1980s era buses have been scrapped by now.

More fun were the Chicago ones that went to all green (were frequent in the earlier days of 4400s on 147).

[MVTArider]

Depends on the brand. Rochester NY ones that scrolled up and down did it. The ones that scrolled left to right didn't. Also complicating this was that some of the controllers were changed. I'm sure all those 1980s era buses have been scrapped by now.

More fun were the Chicago ones that went to all green (were frequent in the earlier days of 4400s on 147).

By scroll do you mean the light flash pattern? These buses all have LED signs. I don't know if they are Twin Vision or another manufacturer. By the way by blanking out I mean the sign has the route # and a destination then the route # stays as the sign displays 1 or 2 more destinations on that route, then the sign is blank and then starts over again. It does it on both the side and front. Also these buses have no rear #'s.

Speaking of all green I saw somewhere a picture where the "Not in Service" sign was green with black lettering. Nice way to differentiate from in service coaches.

Off topic but I think all the old buses in Rochester are now retired. A few might have been sold though. I remember when I was little neither my Mom nor me could read some of the destination signs because there would be condensation over the clear cover.

Oh yeah, another interesting sign up here is on bus 4121 where half is (or was) in the daytime bright and half is the nighttime setting. That one I think is a Twin Vision one if anyone wants to know.

[Busjack]

By scroll do you mean the light flash pattern?

Green dots. Way before the advent of LEds.

[cta_44499_FG]

Although I never really got why "Dear/Kinzie" was shown as the destination all this time anyway when the layover has been on State just south of Kinzie for years.

You still have 22 CLARK//22 to DEVON, and 151 SHERIDAN//151 CLARK/DEVON though the actual terminal is at Arthur and Ashland around the corner. The odd thing is on the older busses, the 36 BROADWAY signs read to DEVON/CLARK, and the 1000s read to DEVON/ASH. The reasoning probably that most people know where Devon is, but not Arthur, so go witha street people have heard of.

There are others of course:

56 MILWAUKEE// 56 to WASH/MICHIGAN (terminus is on the street on Madison)

57 LARAMIE// 57 to GRAND (terminus is at Latrobe/Grand)

62 ARCHER// 62 to HARLEM (terminus is at Neva)

65 GRAND// 65 to LARAMIE (terminus is at Latrobe)

73 ARMITAGE// 73 to LARAMIE (terminus is at Latrobe/Grand)

76 DIVERSEY// 76 to HARLEM (terminus is at Neva)

77 BELMONT// 77 to HARLEM (terminus is at Octavia, for the short trips of course)

78 MONTROSE// 78 to WILSON/MARINE (terminus is on the street at Montrose and Marine WB)

80 IRVING PARK// 80 to LAKE SHORE (as well as X80, terminus is at Broadway WB)

90N NORTH HARLEM// 90N to TOUHY (route travels about six blocks west to Overhill)

any others?