South Cook/ Will Restructuring

[MetroShadow]

I'm not sure if we have any updates since the end of the budget fiasco this winter. Are there any updates that we have seen since?

[Busjack]

All I can say is to watch the restructuring web page. However, you probably already knew that. We know that some sort of restructuring is mandated by the 2008 legislation, and that Pace gets $3.75 million off the top this year, and $7.5 million a year after that for it (see this post, which discusses the legislation). Also, if the pattern followed in other restructurings holds, Pace will need to announce another series of hearings before it implements any plan.

Speculation:

• Maybe Pace is waiting to get the money first. The sales tax increase doesn't become effective until April 1. Maybe a half-shot of the money means that this happens in the second half of the year? Who knows?
  
• Since the legislation refers to connecting south Cook County with jobs and earmarks money for that purpose, will Pace be less likely to cut back 355?
  

[Busjack]

Looking at the Pace site, this did come up in the March board meeting minutes. Since they don't seem to stay up, here is the excerpt...

In the fall of 2008, staff plans to implement Phase 1 of the initiative. Schedules for all South and Southwest Division routes are going to be adjusted to match traffic conditions and provide more reliability of service. The next area staff plans to address is the overlap with CTA bus routes to minimize service duplication and provide faster service for suburban customers. A new express route, operating during weekday rush hours, will connect south suburban residents with employment opportunities in Rosemont and nearby areas. In addition, three routes will follow new routings in Bridgeview, Hickory Hills and Palos Hills to provide more direct service to the Bridgeview courthouse. Finally, most Heritage Division routes are going to be redesigned to provide faster and more straightforward service to major destinations in northwestern Will County.

Next winter, Pace plans to hold public hearings for Phase 2, the South and Southwest Cook County service changes. These changes include routing changes to most routes operated by Pace South and Pace Southwest to mirror current travel patterns, and improvement of weekday hours of service and service frequency along additional Joliet based routes. Implementation of these changes is scheduled for spring of 2009.

So, it looks about a year later than first stated.

Update: The restructuring page, previously mentioned, was updated to reflect that.

[Busjack]

According to Moving into the Future, just received, the Joliet part is up for hearing. Here are links to the Public Hearing Notice and to the proposal.

Also, despite all the talk during the DuPage-Fox Valley restructuring a couple of years ago about improving service if funds were procured, it appears that the Naperville Midday circulator is on the block (Hearing Notice).

[Guest metralink]

Also, despite all the talk during the DuPage-Fox Valley restructuring a couple of years ago about improving service if funds were procured, it appears that the Naperville Midday circulator is on the block (Hearing Notice).

[Busjack]

Also, despite all the talk during the DuPage-Fox Valley restructuring a couple of years ago about improving service if funds were procured, it appears that the Naperville Midday circulator is on the block (Hearing Notice).

Actually Naperville supports this as the reductions will result in additional expanded service on the feeder system.

I was going to say "mind telling us how?" but I did find a Napeville Sun article. However, moving the labor cost to one more Route 59 run isn't much of expanded service, and certainly nothing like the zoned feeder bus service initially proposed for Naperville and Lisle. Also, they would need more equipment, unless the existing bus can get back to meet the additional train. Eliminating the midday buses doesn't free up any equipment for the feeders, since they go to the Metra station at about 4:20.

What's pretty clear is that this is a service standards issue, as

But on Route 787/788 "it's a very different story," ...

"It has been declining in ridership for quite some time," Wilmot said.

In 2005 the route averaged 80 passengers a day. Last year there were only 38 per day. For the first six months of 2008, daily ridership was 34 per day

The people who attended the Naperville hearing were asking for something like DAR, but it doesn't appear that that is being substituted.

[CircleSeven]

Pace posted the Phase 1 changes on the routes serving the South & Southwest Divisions, which will go in effect three weeks from Sunday. No giant routing changes outside the 381 95th Street routing within the Brigdeview area and the 385 87-111-127th taking the western end of 95th Street and 88th Avenue replacing service on the 381. For the most part, they will implement limited stops on streets where CTA runs their buses on Michigan, 95th, Western & Cicero. I'm glad that the 349 isn't terminating at 95th as what they were originally planning on doing.

[Busjack]

Pace posted the Phase 1 changes on the routes serving the South & Southwest Divisions, which will go in effect three weeks from Sunday. No giant routing changes ...

I was surprised by this post, but as you say, no big routing changes. The big stuff was supposed to be in early 2009, and would require another round of hearings. This is basically tinkering around the edges, although service on 95th west of 76th seems degraded (no direct service to 95/Dan Ryan, and 385 is much less frequent than 381).

[renardo870]

Pace posted the Phase 1 changes on the routes serving the South & Southwest Divisions, which will go in effect three weeks from Sunday. No giant routing changes outside the 381 95th Street routing within the Brigdeview area and the 385 87-111-127th taking the western end of 95th Street and 88th Avenue replacing service on the 381. For the most part, they will implement limited stops on streets where CTA runs their buses on Michigan, 95th, Western & Cicero. I'm glad that the 349 isn't terminating at 95th as what they were originally planning on doing.

So will CTA fill in the gaps for services on Halsted Western and Cicero sice service will be limited? More local 8A/108, 49A or expanded 49 and 54B?

[Busjack]

So will CTA fill in the gaps for services on Halsted Western and Cicero sice service will be limited? More local 8A/108, 49A or expanded 49 and 54B?

CTA resurrected its South study, so I suppose that will be addressed then. I wonder if that study is still down to 159th St., as first foolishly announced. However, I do agree that Pace shouldn't be offering local service in the city, and as far as I am concerned, it can run express from the city limits, or the CTA can construct the Red Line extension, and Pace can cut back its service to future stations around 130th or 119th.

This, however, does raise the more profound point that the RTA should be enforcing service coordination in these overlap zones, but if past history is a guide, it will abdicate this responsibility. In any event, I am not going to be reading the CTA's mind on this issue.

As far as whether there is much of a cutback, there shouldn't be any need for more 49A service, since the posted stop announcement only deals with stops between 79th and 95th, and most of that is in the forest preserve. Similarly, existing 54B service should be sufficient, and most of that route south of Midway is on the railroad viaduct. Also, Pace isn't eliminating any existing posted stops for 353 on King Drive.

While Circle Seven points out that this phase doesn't eliminate 349 north of 95th, we are waiting for the next, big phase, where this might be still on the table, as well as rerouting 386 via Clearing. Hence, parts of the "posted stops only" announcement may be temporary in effect.

[artthouwill]

CTA resurrected its South study, so I suppose that will be addressed then. I wonder if that study is still down to 159th St., as first foolishly announced. However, I do agree that Pace shouldn't be offering local service in the city, and as far as I am concerned, it can run express from the city limits, or the CTA can construct the Red Line extension, and Pace can cut back its service to future stations around 130th or 119th.

This, however, does raise the more profound point that the RTA should be enforcing service coordination in these overlap zones, but if past history is a guide, it will abdicate this responsibility. In any event, I am not going to be reading the CTA's mind on this issue.

As far as whether there is much of a cutback, there shouldn't be any need for more 49A service, since the posted stop announcement only deals with stops between 79th and 95th, and most of that is in the forest preserve. Similarly, existing 54B service should be sufficient, and most of that route south of Midway is on the railroad viaduct. Also, Pace isn't eliminating any existing posted stops for 353 on King Drive.

While Circle Seven points out that this phase doesn't eliminate 349 north of 95th, we are waiting for the next, big phase, where this might be still on the table, as well as rerouting 386 via Clearing. Hence, parts of the "posted stops only" announcement may be temporary in effect.

It will be interesting to see what happens along Halsted. The 108 doesn't provide midday, evening or weekend service to 95th/Red Line, so it will make for a longer walk for some to access the 352. There is a heavy ridership between the city along Halsted and the south suburbs and those passengers will have to make a similar adjustment.

It is interesting that the limited stops portion of the 349 is only north of 95th, since the 349 operates in the city limits between 103rd and 119th. Again the 49A operates rush hours only and operates all the way to 135th (the entire length of Blue Island). Why does the 49A even exist anymore? Extend the 49 local to 95th and shorten the 349 to 95th, and eliminate the joke known as the 49A.

[Busjack]

It will be interesting to see what happens along Halsted. The 108 doesn't provide midday, evening or weekend service to 95th/Red Line, so it will make for a longer walk for some to access the 352. There is a heavy ridership between the city along Halsted and the south suburbs and those passengers will have to make a similar adjustment.

However, in most cases, the 8A does run. So, it is a question whether you end up at 95th or 79th. The original route (42B) was up to 79th, and what now is the 108 was the 95th branch of that, which was inaugurated obviously when the Dan Ryan L opened.

[artthouwill]

However, in most cases, the 8A does run. So, it is a question whether you end up at 95th or 79th. The original route (42B) was up to 79th, and what now is the 108 was the 95th branch of that, which was inaugurated obviously when the Dan Ryan L opened.

If my memory serves me correctly, the 8A always ran between 79th and 127th and the 42B was the 95th to 127th route. Then it was changed to the 8A doing both, then the 95th portion was renamed 108 Halsted/95th.

[jajuan]

If my memory serves me correctly, the 8A always ran between 79th and 127th and the 42B was the 95th to 127th route. Then it was changed to the 8A doing both, then the 95th portion was renamed 108 Halsted/95th.

Sounds a lot like the 34 having three branches of service before the other branches were renumbered and renamed the (now defunct 104) Pullman/Altgeld and the 119 Michigan/119th.

Was the extension of 359 nonstop north of 119th to 95th/Red Line station part of Pace's response to 108's reduced hours along with the 352's expanded weekday midday and weekday service? I have a feeling it was, but I can't remember for sure.

[Busjack]

If my memory serves me correctly, the 8A always ran between 79th and 127th and the 42B was the 95th to 127th route. Then it was changed to the 8A doing both, then the 95th portion was renamed 108 Halsted/95th.

No, the only route number was 42B until the helvetica signs and renumbering in 1975 or 1976. The 1974 signs (split between black and yellow) had a large 79 or 95 in the yellow area before the "Dan Ryan[over]Rapid Transit."

42B goes back to CSL days, as a picture of one is in Lind's book.

Now that Bill V. is back up, he has 42B becoming 8A in 1976, and 108 designated in 1985. No word, though, on when 8A was sometimes cut back to 120th.

[Busjack]

Sounds a lot like the 34 having three branches of service before the other branches were renumbered and renamed the (now defunct 104) Pullman/Altgeld and the 119 Michigan/119th.

Was the extension of 359 nonstop north of 119th to 95th/Red Line station part of Pace's response to 108's reduced hours along with the 352's expanded weekday midday and weekday service? I have a feeling it was, but I can't remember for sure.

Starting from the mid 60s:

1. There were originally only 2 branches of 34--to 138-Leyden and 119th-Morgan. The Altgeld Gardens bus was originally a South Suburban route. Apparently, at some point, CTA and South Suburban or Pace swapped the Altgeld Gardens terminal (Bill V. indicates under Route 356 that was a gradual process), with the 353 Riverdale trips going to 138 until Pace built the 136th terminal.
   
   
2. The 104 bus originally was what was left of the Cottage Grove route, after it was cut back to 95th from 115th, and the 4A was split and routed into the 95th station. Again, 4A got renumbered into 104. There was a short time when it was extended via the expressway to Altgeld Gardens, but apparently that was superseded by the 34. At one time, 111 was just the 111/115 loop, but apparently was combined with 104 to provide a way to the 95th station. As others noted, there was the proposal to split 111 and 115, but apparently that didn't make the final RTA/JARC list.
   
   
3. The 359 was basically a way to get that bus to the Red Line station, and the map clearly states that local riders should use 352.
   

One might note an inconsistency in 1976 in that 4A became 104, but 42B became 8A.

[jajuan]

Starting from the mid 60s:

1. There were originally only 2 branches of 34--to 138-Leyden and 119th-Morgan. The Altgeld Gardens bus was originally a South Suburban route. Apparently, at some point, CTA and South Suburban or Pace swapped the Altgeld Gardens terminal (Bill V. indicates under Route 356 that was a gradual process), with the 353 Riverdale trips going to 138 until Pace built the 136th terminal.
   
   
2. The 104 bus originally was what was left of the Cottage Grove route, after it was cut back to 95th from 115th, and the 4A was split and routed into the 95th station. Again, 4A got renumbered into 104. There was a short time when it was extended via the expressway to Altgeld Gardens, but apparently that was superseded by the 34. At one time, 111 was just the 111/115 loop, but apparently was combined with 104 to provide a way to the 95th station. As others noted, there was the proposal to split 111 and 115, but apparently that didn't make the final RTA/JARC list.
   
   
3. The 359 was basically a way to get that bus to the Red Line station, and the map clearly states that local riders should use 352.
   

One might note an inconsistency in 1976 in that 4A became 104, but 42B became 8A.

Thank you for making some of that history a little clearer. I remember looking at old CTA service maps that were kept in the Undergraduate Library of University of Illinois down in Champaign-Urbana. I also remember seeing a number of south side routes with different branches of service and current south side routes still fused with north side routes, for example the 22 going all the way through to the south side, then split into pretty the current 22 and 22A, and the 22A finally becoming 24 Wentworth. I remember when 111 was still just the 111th/115th two way loop. The Pullman leg was added shortly after my aunt and late uncle moved to the Far South Side a block north of where Blair Holt was shot. I thought I remembered a few of the early 80's maps showing what was the former 104 being designated as part of route 34. Considering it was 15 years ago when I say these maps, I could have remembered wrong.

Bringing this back to the context of Pace service in South Cook, I kind of figured the 359 extension was more a way to get that bus to the Red Line from Pace making it extra explicit at the time of its initial implementation that the extension was nonstop and local passengers wouldn't be served. Interesting that this is a case of Pace doing to CTA what others lament the CTA of doing to Pace with its increase of service into the suburbs, to name a couple the creation of X49 and more recently increasing CTA service to North Riverside by fusing the 21 and 25.

[CircleSeven]

I did some heavy riding today. I had the chance to ride the #381 for the last time from that 11-mile stretch of 95th Street from 88th Avenue to State Street, since tomorrow will be the day when the route will change. I could've never thought that the CTA would also make new bus stop signs to accomodate Pace's restructuring changes. It appears that CTA also made new bus stops on West 95th Street. Sadly, the signs features the #381 on the non-"Posted Stops". I didn't know if they'd just put it their weeks ago or more recently but I've seen 381 on the new CTA bus stop signs from east of Western to like Ashland Avenue. But from Halsted on down, no 381 on the bus stop signs, not even on Eggleston (where it's Pace's Posted stop for 352 & 381).

When I rode the #352 & #349 on the other hand, I only seen the #352 on the posted stops, and on the non posted ones, it featured the #8A & #108. Since I was riding southbound, on the 8A description, it states along the lines "South to 127th, during mid-morning to early afternoon....". It didn't mention the route stopping at 119th during Rush Hours on the description at all. I'd only saw one sign that featured 8A, 108, 352 & 359 stop at 124th. On Western Avenue, at which I rode northbound from Harvey, Nothing but new bus stop signs from 135th to 79th, even at Old Western & Frontage Road, where the 49A & the 349 (on selective Sunday Trips) turns around. I should also notice this is the first time i've seen both CTA & Pace's new logos on the heading of the new signs, even both of their websites are at the bottom of the signs with the RTA Travel Phone Number, very interesting. Although I will miss the old 49A/349 bus stop with the map graph (the graph show the route from 79th to 154th & Park), on the non-posted stops it had the regular 49A with the map graph of that route. The 49A/349 stop only has the descriptions.

I didn't see any new CTA bus stop signs on Cicero. I was wondering if they're going to either post the new bus stops soon or they'll might hold off on it and wait until Pace unveils the big restructuring plan this Spring. But I've seen some new Pace Bus Stop signs with their new logo, especially the one I waited on at 95th St. & 88th Av. where it had the 379 & 385 bus stops posted.

So overall, it was a good day, despite me waiting for the Orange Line due to track maintenance work this weekend, and I also saw CTA's Holiday Train at 95th at about 2:20pm today (and no I didn't see Santa. In fact about it who believes in him anyway?). It will be interesting how this new Stop Policy turns out tomorrow & throughout this week.

EDIT: I almost forgot to mention, some of the new bus schedules on the buses instead of the regular Blue Print on the schedules, it's a Red Print. And i think it's for the routes that had the ones with the routes that have the Partial Stops. I have the copy of the new #353 95th-Riverdale-Homewood & the #385 87-111-127th with the red print. I don't know if they'll have the red print on all the routes affected or keep the red prints entirely for that purpose.

[Busjack]

When I rode the #352 & #349 on the other hand, I only seen the #352 on the posted stops, and on the non posted ones, it featured the #8A & #108.

I happened to notice, too, today, new signs with the circular logo for 8A and 108. I am somewhat surprised with this level of coordination between CTA and Pace and that new signs were posted.

When 228 became 423, someone just taped "423" over "228 Harlem," and those stayed that way for a couple of years until CTA replaced the map style signs with the two-panel ones, sometime earlier this year. I was expecting, at most, something similar on Halsted, but as you pointed out, CTA replaced the signs.

But I've seen some new Pace Bus Stop signs with their new logo, especially the one I waited on at 95th St. & 88th Av. where it had the 379 & 385 bus stops posted.

It also seems like there are more new Pace signs in the South division than up north. That includes some 370 signs on Halsted between 159th and 163rd, although I thought that that stretch was eventually going to become 352.

[CircleSeven]

I happened to notice, too, today, new signs with the circular logo for 8A and 108. I am somewhat surprised with this level of coordination between CTA and Pace and that new signs were posted.

When 228 became 423, someone just taped "423" over "228 Harlem," and those stayed that way for a couple of years until CTA replaced the map style signs with the two-panel ones, sometime earlier this year. I was expecting, at most, something similar on Halsted, but as you pointed out, CTA replaced the signs.

See, I first thought that CTA would at least put a white sticky tape and cover the 352 on the non-posted stops with the old bus stops (because it had the 3 panel signs featuring those 3 bus routes, even detailed description, no map graphic). So I felt, they were better off with new signs, instead of pasting off the 352 of the old sign and I think it had the old pace logos on those old signs, CTA would have to past that too, since Pace would only stop on their posted stops with their logo, someone would've got on at the non-posted stops and there's the old Pace logo, thinking that bus stops there.

There was another bus stop error I forgot to mention. While I was riding NB on the 349 to 79th, there was a SB bus stop sign near 85th street where it features both 49A & 349. I dunno if they were out of the 49A alone map signs but it would confuse very few because that's where the Dan Ryan Woods is and who would get off at that stop anyway and we're in winter conditions.

It also seems like there are more new Pace signs in the South division than up north. That includes some 370 signs on Halsted between 159th and 163rd, although I thought that that stretch was eventually going to become 352.

I wouldn't thought that, well not right away. If anything, they could've waited on posting those new ones until Pace unveils their big plan in a couple of months at the least. But should they plan on having the 352 go on Halsted south of Harvey, then they'll end up pasting over the 370 and put a 352 there, though that alone would be tacky when you see a close up on the bus stop sign.

[Busjack]

But should they plan on having the 352 go on Halsted south of Harvey, then they'll end up pasting over the 370 and put a 352 there, though that alone would be tacky when you see a close up on the bus stop sign.

That is sure how they did it with the yellow and blue signs; the numbers have some thickness. I can show you a 422 pasted over 212 pasted over 832.

However, the numbers on the new style Pace signs seem flush.

I wonder, combining this with the ease in which CTA replaced the signs on Halsted, whether it is easier now that the signs probably are computer generated. Anyone here work in the sign shop?

[Busjack]

Another report from the list of things affecting service that shows cooperation between CTA and Pace, not seen from 1997 until recently:

New Bus Stop Added Along the #54B South Cicero Route

Effective immediately, southbound #54B South Cicero CTA buses will make stops at the mid-block bus stop at 7150 S. Cicero Avenue to provide a direct connection between CTA and Pace bus services.

[Guest metralink]

Anyone know what's up with the south restructuring? Wasn't there more phases, I thought they would come with the spring run cuts usually in March

[Busjack]

Anyone know what's up with the south restructuring? Wasn't there more phases, I thought they would come with the spring run cuts usually in March

I did download the request for bids on 889, and that said end of March. Don't know if that is representative of the rest of the restructuring.

[Busjack]

Update: I moved this to at least a more appropriate thread:

What about the future plans for South Cook Pace Routes like:

-A pace service from CTA Red Line/ 95 to River Oaks Mall, daily service.

-379 to Orland Sq Mall to connect to 831 (831 Sould bring back to Midway, it was still getting plenty riderships) add weekend evenings til 11pm.

-383 to Matteson (Lincoln Mall)

-386 to Harvey TC via Country Club Hills, Tinley Park via 183rd, add Sunday service

-385 - Saturday service

My Suggestions:

-530 Extention from Naperville to Yorktown

-554 Extend weekday evenings, weekend service from Elgin to Woodfield

I assume you are acknowledging that the first group is in the South Cook plan. I still think that the proposed 386 is too long with regard to such things as driver breaks and keeping a schedule. I would split the Harlem and 183rd parts. 831 apparently wasn't getting plenty ridership, or they wouldn't have been continually messing with it (i.e. via Orland or via Lemont).

530 might work, since there doesn't seem to be regular service between Naperville and Yorktown. I am assuming that the problem about making Yorktown a staging center has been worked out.

554 I question, since it is a weak route. On the other hand, there were proposals to make 208 run the complete Golf Rd. corridor, from Evanston to Elgin. I wonder why that wasn't implemented, but I am pretty sure it is because the ridership isn't there.