South Cook/ Will Restructuring

[west towns]

Comparing Apples to Oranges. Would you want to have UPW trains stop at Oak Park, Austin, etc.? Or cause a dis-service to everyone who has to get off at Harlem and take the train downtown?

Exactly if using the same 'duplication' arguement it doesn't make sense to cut the Metra UP west in Oak Park, same rational as cutting the 355 at the red line. The Metra UP west is not the green line market nor is the 355 the red line market. Can't have it both ways, if 'duplication' is such an issue in this region then what's good for the south side is good for everyone, cut the suburban services at the 1st chance you have at the Chicago border.

this logic is stupid, so why does the 355 get cut based on 'duplication'? Markets should drive the decisions!

[Busjack]

I think Dave answered this one. It is not so much duplication (although that is an issue CTA and Pace seem now to want to recognize) as that Pace doesn't want to spend the millions needed to run the bus into the loop and deadhead it back to 163rd and Dixie Highway.

We've talked about limited resources and the service boards having run through the tax increase already. Unless the people in Calumet City and Lansing want to pay enough that Pace doesn't lose money on the bus, and protest enough at the public hearing, they'll have to transfer. Are you going to the hearing? (I did to the North Shore ones). Apparently a $4.00 fare is not enough to wipe out the deficit on the route. That is how the market would have resolved the situation.

Also, apparently the people in South Holland and around River Oaks survived having their buses cut back to 95th or Hegewisch some time in the 1980s. I don't see buses with signs such as Thornton via 142nd Street at the Prudential Building like I did in the 1970s.*

________

*Or, for that matter, 210 to Glenview or 211 to Dearlove.

As for the 355, ridership seems to dictate they continue to use the service despite occasional delays, as the ridership is over 800 rides a day, something must be going right.

By the way, where did you get your ridership numbers? Care to post a link?

[MetroShadow]

By the way, where did you get your ridership numbers? Care to post a link?

Actually, I was looking at the RTAMS ridership statistics, and Look what I found (see attached):

And if I didn't have the urge to skip town this weekend to work on my papers (and part of my thesis), I would shoot for the wednesday or saturday meetings.

[west towns]

I think Dave answered this one. It is not so much duplication (although that is an issue CTA and Pace .

By the way, where did you get your ridership numbers? Care to post a link?

RTAMS

http://www.rtams.org/ui/homepage.asp

[Busjack]

With regard to all the announcements regarding retiming routes in the South Division, Pace had a link to the Transport Chicago Conference, which itself had a paper on the philosophy behind using the IBS system to do that and cut back routes (although the 835 mentioned was thereafter killed).

On an unrelated point, Fox32 News had a story about the transit authorities schmoozing up the House Transportation Committee, in which Melinda Metzger said that Pace needed new buses because of suspension problems due to heavier ridership and the condition of the roads. I guess the North Shore Division doesn't have to worry about the former. :D

[west towns]

With regard to all the announcements regarding retiming routes in the South Division, Pace had a link to the Transport Chicago Conference, which itself had a paper on the philosophy behind using the IBS system to do that and cut back routes (although the 835 mentioned was thereafter killed).

On an unrelated point, Fox32 News had a story about the transit authorities schmoozing up the House Transportation Committee, in which Melinda Metzger said that Pace needed new buses because of suspension problems due to heavier ridership and the condition of the roads. I guess the North Shore Division doesn't have to worry about the former.

wonder if she was referring to the NABI's? NABI's seem to have problems, not like a good old GMC. also anyone go to the south public hearings?

[renardo870]

Any word on the results from the meeting of South Cook/Will County phase three restructuring meeting on 5-6-09?

[qwantae]

wonder if she was referring to the NABI's? NABI's seem to have problems, not like a good old GMC. also anyone go to the south public hearings?

Due to remaining Orion 1s are being retiring, I feel sorry for Route #606 passengers for have to deal with 35ft NABI, because one of my friends takes that route everyday to work in Schaumburg and she barely catches the Orion which she isn't happy about it and everytime she catches the NABI- she hears nothing but smack talking and complaining about the ride and have no seat to sit, that route needs to be 100% 40 foot buses daily.

[twyztdmynd]

Due to remaining Orion 1s are being retiring, I feel sorry for Route #606 passengers for have to deal with 35ft NABI,

I know the route has grown some but back in '90's route used to run with 8000-8100 new looks by CW transportation.

[artthouwill]

I know the route has grown some but back in '90's route used to run with 8000-8100 new looks by CW transportation.

True, but there were also 40 ft buses that ran during that time with the GMC fishbowls (I worked there at the time) and then when we got the Orions, it was exclusively 8700s and 8800s. The 35fts were on 326 and spares. I was long gone by then but I still believe the majority of that route was served by the same Orion 40fts when Colonial/Academy took over from Keeshin.

[jesi2282]

South Cook County / Will County Restructuring Phase III update.

Route #348 Work with Blue Island to identify an alternative turnaround for western terminus.

Route #353 Continue to serve to Thornton by alternating trips to serve two southern termini: the current one at the Homewood Park-n-Ride and the new one at River Oaks.

Route #354 Continue to provide service to Dixmoor via the current routing.

Route #355 Establish the Hegewisch South Shore Station (instead of the 115th/Kensington Metra Station and the 95th Street CTA Red Line Station) as the northern terminus for all trips.

Route #379 Implement one later northbound trip to improve service to FedEx in Bedford Park.

Route #382 Adjust routing to operate via Ford City for southbound a.m. peak trips and northbound p.m. peak trips that serve the 73rd St Industrial Corridor in Bedford Park.

Route #384 Work with Palos Heights and Trinity College to ensure provision of service to Palos Community Hospital via the Palos Heights/Trinity College Dial-A-Ride.

Route #877 On-time performance improvements only; no change in routing or number of trips.

Route #888 On-time performance improvements only; no change in routing or number of trips.

http://pacebus.com/sub/news_events/whats_n...y_Restructuring

[Busjack]

What you didn't say was that your link also said:

Based on the comments made at the April Public Hearings and the e-mails and letters received to date, the following table summarizes the routes for which concerns were raised and the adjustments being recommended:

That didn't mean that the Board passed them, although there wouldn't be any reason for posting them at this time unless the Board had.

On the other hand, this seems to undo whatever savings were proposed. For instance, I don't see why they need both 877 and 888, since either it is a combo or one bus is 5 minutes after the other. Maybe the $7.5 million South Cook County fund is enough to cover it.

Apparently whoever commented that 355 should go the Hegewisch prevailed.

[artthouwill]

South Cook County / Will County Restructuring Phase III update.

Route #353 Continue to serve to Thornton by alternating trips to serve two southern termini: the current one at the Homewood Park-n-Ride and the new one at River Oaks.

.

Route #355 Establish the Hegewisch South Shore Station (instead of the 115th/Kensington Metra Station and the 95th Street CTA Red Line Station) as the northern terminus for all trips.

http://pacebus.com/sub/news_events/whats_n...y_Restructuring

I don't understand the purpose of the dual termini for Rt 353. It would be hard to attract far south siders to a one seat ride to River Oaks with a sporadic schedule. As it is, during rush hours it is half hour service south of Riverdale, even longer during the midday, and to have 2 termini? To me, it would be better to have the 358 extended to the 95th/Red Line with half hour service between 95th and River Oaks, via Torrence, Colfax, 95th, terminate 355 at Hegewisch, and let the 353 be the way it isbetween 95th and Homewood only. The other alternative is to route 358 via 130th to Bishop Ford Exp to 95th/Stony then via 95th to Rd Line.

[Busjack]

I don't understand the purpose of the dual termini for Rt 353.

The only one must have been that people in Thornton complained that they were losing all service. My answer would have been that if there is residual demand in Thornton, institute a call and ride. There were plenty of them in the original plans, but it appears that in this phase, the only one discussed is in the Palos area. (Is that why the original proposal to extend 348 to Moraine Valley College was cut back?)

The retain 354 though Dixmoor must have been a similar situation.

IIRC, in the 70s, there was a River Oaks bus from the Prudential Building similar to what you propose. The reason I remember that is that we would occasionally ride the bus from one of my mother's friend's house near State Line, and the friend said to be sure to take the Lansing bus, not the River Oaks one. That's before 355 went into Hammond (and there actually was a downtown Hammond in those days).

[MetroShadow]

Sorry I didn't comment on this earlier, but I was ill and still had to deal with grad school issues.

I would still contend the 355 go to 95th regardless of the Hegewisch terminal in case noone wants to pay up for Hegewisch-Chicago services. There's no other option to get to the red line other than the 30, and from the SS to 67th is about an hour plus. However, I believe the original plans (I have to get my laptop and upload it) for the alternative was to discontinue the Downtown service and make routing on Wentworth and Burnham part of a larger scheme (Aside from the 364, I'm not sure).

The 353, I was proven wrong, apparently there is a demand for Thornwood service, although how would that affect the split termini? I'm guessing alternating each bus (moving the Hwy. 6 short turns to the mall anyway), and keeping the proposed structure as is.

Is that 354 recommendation still using the loop, just adding Dixmoor service; And I guess there's reasoning enough to keep the 888.

Finally, what's to do with the 348, since Blue Island isn't satisfied with the western terminal. I guess send it to the park and ride at 127th/Kedzie would be an option (although in a different suburbs, I reckon), but how does Rivercrest sound despite being served by 2 routes?

[Busjack]

I would still contend the 355 go to 95th regardless of the Hegewisch terminal in case noone wants to pay up for Hegewisch-Chicago services. There's no other option to get to the red line other than the 30, and from the SS to 67th is about an hour plus. However, I believe the original plans (I have to get my laptop and upload it) for the alternative was to discontinue the Downtown service and make routing on Wentworth and Burnham part of a larger scheme (Aside from the 364, I'm not sure).

• The original plan for 355 was to have the bus go via Sibley past the Bishop Ford, and become a feeder to the 147th ME station and then the Harvey TC. The slide contained all sort of commentary on how that would get the riders to Michigan Ave. faster, and apparently not more expensively if a Link Up pass were used.
  
• The second plan was to go via the Kensington ME station to 95th/Dan Ryan.
  
• The apparently third and final plan is to feed Hegewisch.
  

Since Metra sets the fares at Hegewisch, apparently it didn't make much difference whether the handoff was there or at Kensington. However, you are correct that bus connections to the north of Hegewisch are sparse.

There were also plans to interline 357 and 358, and to make 358 the only way to Hegewisch, but apparently those were sidelined.

The 353, I was proven wrong, apparently there is a demand for Thornwood service, although how would that affect the split termini? I'm guessing alternating each bus (moving the Hwy. 6 short turns to the mall anyway), and keeping the proposed structure as is.

The run to River Oaks was always to be via 170th Street, and the slides claimed that there were some industries to be served, even if the bus did not go as far as River Oaks. Thus, Thornwood HS is covered the same either way. The issue was past 170th and Cottage Grove.

With regard to you Rivercrest suggestion, there must have been a reason why the 348 proposal was cut back from Moraine Valley College to Blue Island (thus no longer going by Rivercrest), but I don't know what it is.

[artthouwill]

• The original plan for 355 was to have the bus go via Sibley past the Bishop Ford, and become a feeder to the 147th ME station and then the Harvey TC. The slide contained all sort of commentary on how that would get the riders to Michigan Ave. faster, and apparently not more expensively if a Link Up pass were used.
  
• The second plan was to go via the Kensington ME station to 95th/Dan Ryan.
  
• The apparently third and final plan is to feed Hegewisch.
  

Since Metra sets the fares at Hegewisch, apparently it didn't make much difference whether the handoff was there or at Kensington. However, you are correct that bus connections to the north of Hegewisch are sparse.

There were also plans to interline 357 and 358, and to make 358 the only way to Hegewisch, but apparently those were sidelined.

The run to River Oaks was always to be via 170th Street, and the slides claimed that there were some industries to be served, even if the bus did not go as far as River Oaks. Thus, Thornwood HS is covered the same either way. The issue was past 170th and Cottage Grove.

With regard to you Rivercrest suggestion, there must have been a reason why the 348 proposal was cut back from Moraine Valley College to Blue Island (thus no longer going by Rivercrest), but I don't know what it is.

My understanding was that the 355 would still serve 95th, but it would serve Hegeswisch instead of Kensington.

I understand the 170th routing to River Oaks, but to me there is not enough ridership south of 170th/Cottage going to Homewood nor would alternating triips t River Oaks attract enough riders on the new leg to justify service. In my earlier post, I would just assume leaving the 353 as is and extend the 358 (not the 355) to 95th. Thus a new possibility of new ridership from the South side with direct service to ROM without taking a grand tour of the south suburbs to get there.

[Busjack]

My understanding was that the 355 would still serve 95th, but it would serve Hegeswisch instead of Kensington.

Although we have to wait for the final maps, the site says:

Route 355 Establish the Hegewisch South Shore Station (instead of the 115th/Kensington Metra Station and the 95th Street CTA Red Line Station) as the northern terminus for all trips.

But since you mention mention it, it might be like the time I rode it and a train was blocking 130th near the Ford plant. The bus just went up Torrence to 103rd. Maybe it stays on 103rd to Michigan.

[MetroShadow]

The "schedules" are out for most of the south suburban routes (except 356 and 372).

In regards to the 355, it'll be a feeder to Hegewisch only, and it'll connect with incoming/outgoing trains at the station. I'm assuming at this point it'll interline with the 358.

As for the 353, the service gets a little weird: 15 to Riverdale, 30 to 170th, and at least 60 to River Oaks or Homewood.

[artthouwill]

The "schedules" are out for most of the south suburban routes (except 356 and 372).

In regards to the 355, it'll be a feeder to Hegewisch only, and it'll connect with incoming/outgoing trains at the station. I'm assuming at this point it'll interline with the 358.

As for the 353, the service gets a little weird: 15 to Riverdale, 30 to 170th, and at least 60 to River Oaks or Homewood.

Just wait for those freight trains in Dolton to block up everything.

[Busjack]

The "schedules" are out for most of the south suburban routes (except 356 and 372).

In regards to the 355, it'll be a feeder to Hegewisch only, and it'll connect with incoming/outgoing trains at the station. I'm assuming at this point it'll interline with the 358.

To clarify, the schedules are available if you click on the Passenger Notice for the respective route. The link Dave provided does mention 356 and 372.

With regard to interlining, 355 and 358s arrive at Hegewisch about the same time (except for extra 355s at 7:19 and 8:10), and there is no change from the existing 358 schedule. Thus, if there is any interlining (for run purposes), conversely then a 358 would deadhead.

Now that you mention it, I'm surprised that there is no midday Wentworth service, but I guess that water is long over the dam. If they want to be consistent that it is only a feeder, they could have renumbered it to 755.

Also, for those speculating about the Blue Island loop, it is just Gregory-127th-Western, layover apparently between the Metra stations. Nothing too far afield there.

As for the 353, the service gets a little weird: 15 to Riverdale, 30 to 170th, and at least 60 to River Oaks or Homewood.

On Saturday, about every 2 hours to the terminals. I doubt that the terminal split (at least on Saturday) stays very long, as that seems too sparse to maintain any ridership.

[Busjack]

Alert: You can get the 356 and 372 schedules by clicking on some other proposed schedule, such as 355, and then change the number in the url to the route of interest. The resulting links are:

• 356 front
  
• 356 back
  
• 372 front
  
• 372 back
  

You just have to know the patterns.

As best as I can tell, the 372 doesn't come to Homewood in time to connect with the 356; looks like they assume about a 20 minute layover. On the other hand, the 356 does connect with the 372. They must be assuming that through riders will take 352.

Further update: Passenger notices for 356 and 372 are now up. You don't need my backhanded entry.

[qwantae]

Alert: You can get the 356 and 372 schedules by clicking on some other proposed schedule, such as 355, and then change the number in the url to the route of interest. The resulting links are:

• 356 front
  
• 356 back
  
• 372 front
  
• 372 back
  

You just have to know the patterns.

As best as I can tell, the 372 doesn't come to Homewood in time to connect with the 356; looks like they assume about a 20 minute layover. On the other hand, the 356 does connect with the 372. They must be assuming that through riders will take 352.

Further update: Passenger notices for 356 and 372 are now up. You don't need my backhanded entry.

Last Wednesday Morning I drove on Dixie HWY in Homewood, Flossmoor towards Prairie State College, I did see Southbound new signs logo 372 on it and with old Northbound 352 bus signs, but still seeing 370 old signs on both sides on Halsted when I was leaving the college.

[west towns]

The new changes are almost here, anyone going out on Sunday and Monday to test the new services?

you would think they would market this more as its a big service improvement

[MetroShadow]

The new changes are almost here, anyone going out on Sunday and Monday to test the new services?

you would think they would market this more as its a big service improvement

I might....we'll see.