7500-series NABI 60-LFW - Retirements

[wordguy]

Just another piece to add to the puzzle: About a month back, I spotted 7604 in revenue service, sporting a fresh coat of paint (new CTA logos included). It looked as if it had been extensively rehabbed: the panels and lids seemed to be perfectly aligned, and even the bellows looked new. I haven't seen it since.

So now I'm wondering. Could 7604 have been rehabbed under warranty, possibly as a test bus? If so, could it have since been withdrawn from service, owing to continuing problems?

While I realize this is just speculation on my part, I'm guessing --- and that's all it is: just a guess --- that the performance of a rehabbed 7604 (maybe another one or two as well?) could have caused the CTA to reconsider its earlier plan for warranty rehabs.

Is this a stretch or does my theory make some sense?

I, too, trust Kevin's declarations. But without official confirmation, I guess we can still speculate.

[BusExpert32]

I know what the phrase means thank you very much. I just happened to be glancing at these posts late at night and missed that part. Though I don't doubt Kevin either, I do hold out a bit of caution still based on the Bus section stating nothing official has been announced about the NABIs' status.

Ok. Also, I wasn't insulting you or being sarcastic. You quoted me, so I responded. I couldn't have known that you were tired, or used it as an excuse to leave the issue.

[Guest]

I have to wonder if they could possibly be returned to NABI? Despite all the problems I assume there would be some parts and perhaps engines/powertrains that could be reused/rebuilt. Although it could also be more financially feasible to just scrap them instead...

Its unbelieveable after only a couple of years of service how some of these CTA Nabi buses are already heading for the scrap yard, theyre that bad??? What a shame theyre nice looking buses they really grew on me, its too bad theyre lemons!. Believe it or not, Pace's 6600 Nabis have really grown on me, Ive tried to ignore the issue of substandard construction of these vehicles. At Academy Im primarily driving the Nabis now, I rarely drive the Orions. I guess Ive gotten used to them.

[jajuan]

Ok. Also, I wasn't insulting you or being sarcastic. You quoted me, so I responded. I couldn't have known that you were tired, or used it as an excuse to leave the issue.

No offense taken, and I'm just erring on the side of caution and taking a wait and see position given CTA's recent past history of doing the unexpected or shifitng gears from plans that were officially announced (the 74th/Kedzie/Chicago NF/Flx 6000 swap that deviates from Huberman's consolidation plan comes to mind).

[trainman8119]

Here is why you won't hear anything "official" for a bit, anyway. If in fact these

buses are headed to the scrap heap, as speculated, it would most likely be for

reasons previously discussed....ie. engine fires, structure problems, etc. Since

these could potentially make these buses somewhat of a hazard to be on, CTA

probably would not come out and say that they were done with these until it is

time they are totally ready to disappear, fearing, perhaps, that people will stay

away from riding them and causing new problems.

As I thought about this today, I hope that they are not prematurly putting these

to sleep just so they could say that all the artics are "eco-friendly"...cause then

we really would have some serious poor decision makers out there making decisions.

Remember...still no indication where the money is coming on all of this and it already

has been implied here that CTA is gettng buses they don't have money to pay for.

Again, I still wonder about the leasing stuff....it ain't coming from grants, so it must

be coming out of their bank account. This can't be too good from a daily operational

standpoint. :unsure:

[Busjack]

Again, I still wonder about the leasing stuff....it ain't coming from grants, so it must be coming out of their bank account. This can't be too good from a daily operational standpoint.

That's a good point, and may be the answer to the FTA question. We don't know what is the funding source for paying the lease obligation, and all Cerberus is saying is:

Also, it was critical to the CTA that TFG’s structure did not assert any priority rights on any specific federal or state revenue grant streams, thus preserving the greatest flexibility for the CTA.

Also, that:

The lease purchase was secured solely by the buses being acquired and did not involve the pledge of any other CTA assets or collateral.

However, I also mentioned, that unlike the equipment trust days when CTA could meet its obligations, I'm sure Cerberus got other security, since who would want to be the repo man on 150 buses and try to resell them? They also may have reason to feel insecure because, if we believe the trend of opinion in this thread, the buses are not being used for the represented purpose, "retire approximately 250 older (17–25 [sic] years), 40ft diesel buses (having very high repair downtime and operating and maintenance costs—ever more expensive in today’s elevated fuel cost environment)." But that's probably puffery, not a condition of the deal.

Let's also remember that Cerberus also owns Chrysler, Chrysler Financial, and half of GMAC, which the government have also recently bailed out.

I can throw in that someone on the CTA Tattler said I haven't read the contracts, and I haven't. I even wonder if the CTA Board did.

My points:

CTA may avoid the FTA problem the same way NYC did: say that we used our own $120 million (the lease; $160 million after paying the equivalent of interest) to replace the buses and hence that didn't involve federal funds. But where is CTA getting the $13.3 million a year to pay off this lease?*

However, if projections (especially BusExpert's) are correct (and yes, I acknowledge that you were only predicting), where is CTA going to get the money to replace "the approximately 250 older (17–25 [sic] years), 40ft diesel buses?" As well as about 75 of the NABIs (unless they think the spare ratio is going to go down)?

As I implied yesterday, maybe they think the feds (through Ray LaHood) are going to bail them out, or that Governor Queeg** will be gone by Feb. 12 and a capital bill will sail through at that point.

However, there was either a rapid change in plans or misrepresentation. Considering that the 4000s were never used as represented, I tend to the latter. And for that reason, as a taxpayer, I don't want my taxes increased to pay for another of Frank's big blunders. I mentioned off board to jajuan that I wonder how Ron's PowerPoints are going to explain this.

It sure would be fun to be a CTA auditor. Of course, they may be using the same auditors that Lehman Brothers did. How's that waiting for a Washington job going Carole?

____

*Another monkey wrench. CTA has disclosed that it had a leaseback transaction on the Novas, so we know they aren't going to be retired early. We don't know what the situation is with the NABIs.

**Reference to the Caine Mutiny. I had to read it in H.S.

[Busjack]

As I implied yesterday, maybe they think the feds (through Ray LaHood) are going to bail them out....

Someone on the CTA Tattler had a reference to NYC thinking it would get about $4 billion for transit, including for $1500 hybrid buses.

Maybe the CTA is thinking similarly. Or maybe it is like the Tattler poster surmised--Schumer is doing the job for NYC, but Illinois politicians are not. Or maybe that bill won't pass and everyone will be stuck.

I wonder what money is funding the base order of the 900? AND WHY THE CTA HASN'T ANNOUNCED IT.*

____

*Sorry for shouting. But I meant it.

[sw4400]

Here's something interesting on the NABI website under the LFW section...

"The LFW is offered in 31', 35' and 40' lengths which make it a perfect choice for transit properties wanting a family of products. The LFW has gone through a recent face lift with a new styling package taking its exterior design cues from the NABI BRT series. This design includes a sleek, aerodynamic front end and windshield module, as well as larger side windows with far fewer seams, creating the appearance of one, large, space-age styled piece of glass. The end result is a futuristic look that helps give mass transit a more modern personality. Inside the buses, new modern seating and fabrics welcome passengers, and the driver's cockpit has undergone ergonomic advancements"

Note that they eliminated the 60' length model for the LFW's. Perhaps they have silently admitted problems with these vehicles and quit making them? In any case, you think they maybe made some "under the table" deal with the CTA? Retire the 7500-Series buses and we'll send you 58 BRT model NABI's as a trial order to see if we like the product(like we did with the 5800-series New Flyers)?(just speculation) Here's the clip from the BRT section....

The BRT is available in 40', 42', 60' and 65' lengths making it a popular alternative to entice riders out of their cars and encourage them to give public transportation a try. The BRT's open design allows better visibility. It also gives the bus a brighter, sunny interior environment and it gives riders the sense that the buses are more spacious. The dramatic styling of the BRTs with their curved lines and contemporary looks offers a cost effective alternative to expensive light rail.

Here are the actual links....

The LFW article.... http://www.nabiusa.com/NABI/LFW-bus.htm

The BRT article.... http://www.nabiusa.com/NABI/brt-bus.htm

[Busjack]

Here's something interesting on the NABI website under the LFW section...

I won't repeat the rest, for brevity sake.

Could be, except that CTA has at least somewhat locked itself in with the New Flyer order. If NABI wanted the business, it could have been Proposer 2. If it was, it didn't win, since Proposer 1 announced that it had (and not only that it was the low bidder, but that the Board had awarded the contract).

In any event, CTA would have to get over its previously declared dissatisfaction with NABI's assembly plant. If you take this topic as some have, I don't see how this incident helps that. On the NABI side, it would have to show that it has the financial capability to replace $550,000 buses with buses costing over $1 million each that are better made. Anything is possible (like the return of the Compobus), but unless you are betting on another $1 million hockey goal at 10:00 of the second period and you are in the right seat, I wouldn't go there.

[sw4400]

On the NABI side, it would have to show that it has the financial capability to replace $550,000 buses with buses costing over $1 million each that are better made. Anything is possible (like the return of the Compobus), but unless you are betting on another $1 million hockey goal at 10:00 of the second period and you are in the right seat, I wouldn't go there.

This is what I'm thinking here... NABI needs business in these tough economical times, and to "please" the customer(a.k.a the CTA in this instance), we(NABI) subsitute good product to replace bad product(in this case... scrap/park/return the 225 NABI 60-LFW's and we'll send you somewhere between 50-225 NABI 60-BRT's at no cost to you, provided if you like them you have to give us a good word with other transit companies. This way the CTA gets a good quality NABI bus(yeah right. I'll believe that when I see it ), and if a Transit Company wants to get another Transit Companies' opinion on how they liked the NABI products(the aforementioned CTA for example), they can tell them that they have good products now. See what I'm getting at here? This isn't like.... ok, we'll drop the New Flyer contracts and go with NABI(I'd ask what Huberman was smoking if he did that), this is just a way to give NABI a chance to clear it's name from garbage technology.

Again, speculation here....

[Busjack]

This is what I'm thinking here... NABI needs business in these tough economical times, and to "please" the customer(a.k.a the CTA in this instance), we(NABI) subsitute good product to replace bad product(in this case... scrap/park/return the 225 NABI 60-LFW's and we'll send you somewhere between 50-225 NABI 60-BRT's at no cost to you, provided if you like them you have to give us a good word with other transit companies.

Unfortunately, the bus market isn't the competitive world out there. This isn't like Jewel having to redecorate every time new management takes over to keep its customers from going to Dominick's Lifestyle stores (even though I can go to Garden Fresh).

The tough economic times don't affect the bus manufacturers, since the majority of the business is driven by the availability of government money. And the federal government can print more.

As far as reputation among transit authorities, they can say that Los Angeles has bought over a 1000 of them and was so satisfied that they "begged us" (that's probably too strong, but anyway) to bring back the Compobus. We have plenty of BRTs there, too.

And, don't forget, NABI is owned by Cerberus, which I previously mentioned, needed government bailouts for their Chrysler, Chrysler Financial and GMAC units. Now, maybe Chrysler could use government money to prove to consumers that they have a better product, but NABI has no incentive to do so.

[BusHunter]

This is probably not retirement... but project Band-Aid, Duct Tape, Staple Gun & Glue Gun to fix these "buses" up until the 12-Year mark(if they can even make it based on Gene King's sighting of a NABI on #3) Quote below....

"Last night I saw a NABI working #3 King Drive which looked as though it might not be too long from retirement. Seriously though, the bus was turning south from Chicago onto Michigan and the rear section was tilted to the door side while it also leaned back. It likely needed some work."

Look for the CTA logo to be replaced with a trash can, indicating that these buses are garbage!

Many different ways to replace North American Bus Industries(a.k.a NABI), here are some I and others came up with... add to it if you like.

NABI= Not Able to Build It

NABI= Not Able to Bus Intact

NABI= Need Another Bus Immediately!(not my quote, but very good!)

NABI= Needs Another Band-aid, Ivan!

NABI= Nails And Band-aids Inside and out

Here's another NABi= Not Another Bus Immobile. I saw another NABI stranded. #7617 at State/Wacker and I said to myself Not Another Bus Immobile!! Thinking about what Kevin said, ("Get your photos by summer") I suppose they could retire all NABI's (211 of them) by summer, if they used all Nf's delivered between now and then to retire them and them only. (no more #6000's retire) But this would mean ironically, that some would be retired for 40 foot buses. 50 #1980 - #2029, + about 90 #4063 - #4149 = 140 plus throw in the 58 buses and you get very close to the amount you need for full retirement.

[tranistnut84]

They REALLY got to get rid of this junk.When I rode one on the 147 last year,I had water dripping on me,It got so bad I had to change seats.

Heres an idea since the buses are third world quality,Maybe some third world country might buy em up from the CTA ?? Money is money :lol:

[Busjack]

Heres an idea since the buses are third world quality,Maybe some third world country might buy em up from the CTA ?? Money is money

I sort of wonder about that.

First, the bus bodies came from a third world country, Hungary. Basically, the U.S. is the place where there are few domestic bus manufacturers.

Of course, CTA pawned old trolley buses off on Mexico, and (according to Krambles) tried and failed to sell some 7400s (the 1973 version) to Zaire, so anything is possible.

BTW, if you consider China, compare all the pictures on Bus Explorer of knock off Flxibles and Daewoo RTSs with the Olympic background of all articulated buses with a yellow triangle at the back. Similar buses were shown when foreign news interviewed some Beijing cab driver about what he thought about Obama. Maybe the Olympics gets you a uniform bus fleet, which may be what Daley is thinking (if anything).

[Busjack]

plus throw in the 58 buses and you get very close to the amount you need for full retirement.

As indicated by my reply to Bus Expert, I've given up trying to figure this out. On Channel 11 there was a story about Chicago not submitting its project list for the stimulus plan, and then on Channel 7 a story that Illinois was in line for a chunk of transportation money.

[BusHunter]

Well surprising to report, 12 NABI's have been retired. They are #7519, #7527, #7541 and #7544 from 103rd. #7572, #7609, #7628, #7631 and #7632 from North Park. #7686,#7687 and #7709 from 77th. Before this #7629 had been retired from the LSD fire last year. #7555 and #7520 were off the roster and presumed to be retired also. Seems like they would be now. So that brings us down to 211 left.

February's update revealed a few more NABI's went to the dead line. This was before the NABI crisis. Although now these new ones on the list and the ones above are referred to as being on the long term hold list and not retired. 7 NABI's join the list from 103rd. They were #7506, #7511, #7523, #7530, #7535, #7550 and #7553. 2 from Kedzie #7558, #7680. 3 more from 77th #7690, #7691 and #7698. 8 more from NP join the list #7571, #7575, #7576, #7580, #7586, #7600, #7603 and #7622. That would bring us down to 191 left if they return at all.

[Busjack]

Since this has to do more with the 7500s thread, I'll reply here.

Regarding the #7500's, why do you think CTA changed the status of the dead ones? i think because they don't want to go on record as saying there retired. They have a pending lawsuit against NABI, now how would it look to say you've retired something at 6 years old without doing a major inspection (which hadn't been done last month) to justify you could in fact retire them. Legally wouldn't they have shown they've given up on a product that's supposed to at least run it's 12 years without the legal proof that they could do that. I think that's where were at now. They are trying to get an expert to say these are clearly unsafe so they can in fact retire them. That's why I'm a little suspicious of this break in the NABI's. The timing to me seems a little convenient. ( just my opinion ) If you want proof based on what was said about them last month. Kevin did not stand up and say you were wrong about them then. They were in fact retired then. Now the famous #910 - #939. If Kevin says I'm wrong on that I guess I'll have to take him at his word ( at least he did state I'm possibly making a mistake by misjudging what I'm seeing on the roster) But honestly I can't believe no one until I do see #2000 - #2029, so get your cameras ready there some proof that is needed so we can clear this up and move on. Like I always say everyone makes mistakes.

I guess I was commenting more on the "secret cult of the roster."

Based on other inaccuracies noted (such as 7520 not being considered dead last month) it is hard for us outsiders to know if what we are given is factual, such as that CTA actually did change the status of the 25-35 buses. While CTA may have a motive in covering up putting them as "retired" or "on hold," and I tend to agree with that (based on the circumstantial evidence I listed in the Poll: NABI Inspections topic) there may be less sinister things happening.

Not to show any disrespect to our host, but I noted certain inconsistencies here, from "get your pictures by the end of summer" (from which BusExpert admittedly came to some conclusions, as well as did some Wikipedia IP posters I previously mentioned) to a story with a url http://www.chicagobus.org/news/nabi-retirement saying "An early retirement of the NABI fleet had been suspected recently, as over a dozen of the vehicles dropped off the active fleet roster in January. At last count, approximately 200 of the buses had remained in service," somewhat hedging one's bets.

But, getting back to the cult--is the roster such proprietary information that it can't be posted as an attachment? In that case, it probably shouldn't be selectively leaked, either.

[BusHunter]

Since this has to do more with the 7500s thread, I'll reply here.I guess I was commenting more on the "secret cult of the roster."

Based on other inaccuracies noted (such as 7520 not being considered dead last month) it is hard for us outsiders to know if what we are given is factual, such as that CTA actually did change the status of the 25-35 buses. While CTA may have a motive in covering up putting them as "retired" or "on hold," and I tend to agree with that (based on the circumstantial evidence I listed in the Poll: NABI Inspections topic) there may be less sinister things happening.

Not to show any disrespect to our host, but I noted certain inconsistencies here, from "get your pictures by the end of summer" (from which BusExpert admittedly came to some conclusions, as well as did some Wikipedia IP posters I previously mentioned) to a story with a url http://www.chicagobus.org/news/nabi-retirement saying "An early retirement of the NABI fleet had been suspected recently, as over a dozen of the vehicles dropped off the active fleet roster in January. At last count, approximately 200 of the buses had remained in service," somewhat hedging one's bets.

Channel 7 stated the same thing. The part you quoted almost sounds word for word what they said. I wonder where they got their info. Anyway remember #6832, well it's on long term hold status too. Even after smashing into a viaduct. If that tells you anything.

[BusExpert32]

Since this has to do more with the 7500s thread, I'll reply here.I guess I was commenting more on the "secret cult of the roster."

Based on other inaccuracies noted (such as 7520 not being considered dead last month) it is hard for us outsiders to know if what we are given is factual, such as that CTA actually did change the status of the 25-35 buses. While CTA may have a motive in covering up putting them as "retired" or "on hold," and I tend to agree with that (based on the circumstantial evidence I listed in the Poll: NABI Inspections topic) there may be less sinister things happening.

Not to show any disrespect to our host, but I noted certain inconsistencies here, from "get your pictures by the end of summer" (from which BusExpert admittedly came to some conclusions, as well as did some Wikipedia IP posters I previously mentioned) to a story with a url http://www.chicagobus.org/news/nabi-retirement saying "An early retirement of the NABI fleet had been suspected recently, as over a dozen of the vehicles dropped off the active fleet roster in January. At last count, approximately 200 of the buses had remained in service," somewhat hedging one's bets.

But, getting back to the cult--is the roster such proprietary information that it can't be posted as an attachment? In that case, it probably shouldn't be selectively leaked, either.

Why is "Get your photos by the end of the summer" inconsistent? Since you have admitted to not having the inside information, you can't really prove any of your points or conclusions about what's going on inside the the CTA and what the plan with the NABIs was, is, or will be, either. Also, Kevin has proven to be reliable with all of his posts. Can we all please wait until another formal annnouncement regarding the NABIs before any more of this.

[Buslover88]

Kevin has proven to be reliable with all of his posts.

Busjack didn't say that Kevin's posts aren't reliable. Also, Busjack meant no disrespect to him either.

Why is "Get your photos by the end of the summer" inconsistent?

I guess it's inconsistent now because the NABIs are gone (no disrespect to Kevin whatsoever).

[sw4400]

I guess it's inconsistent now because the NABIs are gone (no disrespect to Kevin whatsoever).

Much as I'd like to agree, Buslover88, I cannot. The NABI's aren't offically retired by the CTA, just parked while being inspected one by one. After inspection is completed, the NABI's(the "good" ones anyways) could be back out on the streets as early as this Monday(the press release has the NABI's parked this week, but doesn't mention next week). It all depends on how long it takes to inspect 200+ buses thoroughly. The CTA hasn't offically retired all 200+ NABI's(even Kevin has them "Retired" on his page with a question mark, indicating he, too, doesn't know the future of these buses).

[cta5658]

i have some pictures of the NABI's waiting for inspection at 103rd St. Garage

[Buslover88]

Much as I'd like to agree, Buslover88, I cannot. The NABI's aren't offically retired by the CTA, just parked while being inspected one by one. After inspection is completed, the NABI's(the "good" ones anyways) could be back out on the streets as early as this Monday(the press release has the NABI's parked this week, but doesn't mention next week).

Did you notice that I used "gone" instead of "retired"? I didn't say they were retired. I just said they were gone (for now). Good for them if they hit the streets sooner or later.

[sw4400]

i have some pictures of the NABI's waiting for inspection at 103rd St. Garage

Is #7552 the one with the break in the middle(pic #1)? The way the middle is sagging, it looks like that could be the bus that forced the NABI's out of service.

[cta5658]

Is #7552 the one with the break in the middle(pic #1)? The way the middle is sagging, it looks like that could be the bus that forced the NABI's out of service.

from the way #7552's middle looks, i think this might be the bus that forced the NABI's out of service