Destination Signs

[MCTSmke]

In your reply above you are now saying if there is no indicator the bus serves all stops on the route because you looked at a map. If you looked at a map one should be able to conclude the route terminal from the map. You could then assume that terminal is standard terminal for the route.

The 63W/62H western terminal is not labeled on the CTA map

Route 30 southern terminal is not clear because it is on a loop

The 65/74 western terminal is labeled as Nordica not Harlem

Etc...

Both you and I are most likely advanced transit users and know what to look for. However (and I know this because I have helped enough people with their trips and had to explain things) when the line for Rt. XX goes past their destination on a map, they dont know where the terminals are even located, (and I've seen some people try to read maps, it would take them an hour if they had to locate the terminal and the terminal name) all they think is... "I need to take route XX to get there". And (angin because I have seen this) they assume every bus labeled XX goes there.

[Busjack]

The 63W/62H western terminal is not labeled on the CTA map

What? At least there are dots in Summit.

Also, the back of the map has

63WWEST 63RD

63rd/Archer east to Midway (Orange) 5:00a-11:10p 5:00a-10:30p 7:10a-9:10p

Midway (Orange) west to 63rd/Archer 5:00a-11:10p 5:10a-11:10p 7:10a-9:40p

and something similar for each route. That should resolve where the "official terminals" are for each route, at each time of the day.

[MCTSmke]

What? At least there are dots in Summit.

Also, the back of the map has

and something similar for each route. That should resolve where the "official terminals" are for each route, at each time of the day.

Yeah, that table is a life saver when planning a trip, I use that table all the time. I wish more systems would have that however it seems that the CTA's is the best I have seen (NYC comes pretty close though).

The maps in the shelters lack that table though :-(

[Guest ctafan630]

The 63W/62H western terminal is not labeled on the CTA map

Route 30 southern terminal is not clear because it is on a loop

The 65/74 western terminal is labeled as Nordica not Harlem

Etc...

Then this is a problem with the CTA not correctly listing the terminal on the destination sign. This issue has nothing to do with the terminal not being properly labeled on the map

On the 74 schedule and the CTA system map Grand/Nordica is listed as the terminal. This is where the terminal is located.

http://www.transitchicago.com/riding_cta/b...spx?RouteId=236

http://www.transitchicago.com/assets/1/cli...ap/200806NW.htm

I havent been near the Grand/Nordica area in a while so I am not sure what the WB destination shows now on the #74 or #65. I do know in the past the WB destination sign read Harlem which is not correct.

[Guest ctafan630]

Both you and I are most likely advanced transit users and know what to look for. However (and I know this because I have helped enough people with their trips and had to explain things) when the line for Rt. XX goes past their destination on a map, they dont know where the terminals are even located, (and I've seen some people try to read maps, it would take them an hour if they had to locate the terminal and the terminal name) all they think is... "I need to take route XX to get there". And (angin because I have seen this) they assume every bus labeled XX goes there.

I don't dispute you that people need to have a little better understanding of where a bus is going before they board. However even in your statement above, having "short trip" added to a destination sign will not help these people. As I stated before, the people you describe above will, 99% of the time, ask the operator if the bus is going to XXX.

[cta_44499_FG]

Then this is a problem with the CTA not correctly listing the terminal on the destination sign. This issue has nothing to do with the terminal not being properly labeled on the map

On the 74 schedule and the CTA system map Grand/Nordica is listed as the terminal. This is where the terminal is located.

http://www.transitchicago.com/riding_cta/b...spx?RouteId=236

http://www.transitchicago.com/assets/1/cli...ap/200806NW.htm

I havent been near the Grand/Nordica area in a while so I am not sure what the WB destination shows now on the #74 or #65. I do know in the past the WB destination sign read Harlem which is not correct.

65 reads "TO HARLEM"

74 reads "TO GRAND"

both are very broad and frankly not accurate.

[MCTSmke]

65 reads "TO HARLEM"

74 reads "TO GRAND"

both are very broad and frankly not accurate.

Now that’s where a change needs to be made, at the very least they could be consistent with their inaccuracies, lol

I don't dispute you that people need to have a little better understanding of where a bus is going before they board. However even in your statement above, having "short trip" added to a destination sign will not help these people. As I stated before, the people you describe above will, 99% of the time, ask the operator if the bus is going to XXX.

Like I said, I've already put that specific concept into the no pile. It was simply a random idea thrown out there based on what I have seen done in other cities. I'm just trying to see if there are any ways that transit systems can present communications to customers in a more effective manner, I'm completely open to discussion of other new ideas as well if anybody has any :-)

[jajuan]

As far as 151 Sheridan, either Belmont-Halsted is the short trip, or because the routes are not congruent (in that the 151 to Devon/Arthur-Clark/Ashland (same place) doesn't run on Belmont), 151 goes back to being the 153 Sheridan -Belmont (thus making the sign people gripe about, at least on the 156, relevant). Of course, there would still be the short turn that ends at Sheridan-Belmont instead of Belmont-Halsted.

As far as the Addison examples, your later statement that "In about 99% of the cases the person waiting for the bus will ask the bus driver.." pretty well sums it up and makes it moot, since people don't trust the signs on the front of the bus, often for good reason. Thus, any short turn indicator would have to be coordinated with enforcing that the destination signs are programmed properly and mean what they say. Given the reports of the northbound 147 to Mich-Balbo, we aren't there yet.

This is OT but I remember when the 151 Belmont trips were listed as a separate route on the list of route First Bus/Last Bus times on the system map to emphasize that these trips were at the time nonaccessible. This dated back to when the trips were operated by the old Limits garage which had all Flyer D901s and thus no accessible routes. This was done until the mid 90s when the runs were assigned to Kedzie upon the Limits closing and they were made accessible since Kedzie had TMCs and later Flx 6000s to assign to the runs.

[pudgym29]

[big snip ~ or should I scribe a short turn?]

Here is another example. Let's say I was told to board a 152 Addison bus wesbound and was told I needed to get off at Oak Park in order to reach my destination.

How will any of these potential signs help me know where Oak Park is since I am not familiar with the streets?

152 Addison to Central (short trip)

152 Addison to Austin (short trip)

152 Addsion to Harlem (short trip)

In about 99% of the cases the person waiting for the bus will ask the bus driver if he/she is going as far as Oak Park before boarding the bus to see if the bus is going where they need to go.

No, no, no. There's nothing at Addison & Oak Park.

What you were told about was the hot dog stand at Addison & Narragansett festooned in pollyannish b**eball bunting. That's where you were being directed.

I concur with our respondent here about the western destination signs for routes #65 Grand & #74 Fullerton. They are inconsistent.

[Guest ctafan630]

No, no, no. There's nothing at Addison & Oak Park.

What you were told about was the hot dog stand at Addison & Narragansett festooned in pollyannish b**eball bunting. That's where you were being directed.

There is a cemetary at Addison and Oak Park. Maybe that is where I wanted to go.

I know the Hot Dog joint you are talking about. Never ate there. I prefer Jay's on Narragansett near Montrose. In my opinion the best italian beef sandwiches and steak sandwiches around.

[Orion VIII]

I know it seems like I only ever post here regarding Mississauga, however it's my best area of expertise. Destination signs here have been standard accross all buses and routes since electronic ones were introduced in 1988. I'm going to use Mississauga Transit route 19 Hurontario as an example. Shoppers World mall in Brampton is the northern terminus, and Port Credit GO Station is the southern terminus.

Before 2005, buses would display:

"19 HURONTARIO N. ~ 19 TO SHOPPERS WORLD ~ 19 VIA SQUARE ONE"

"19 HURONTARIO S. ~ 19 TO PORT CREDIT GO ~ 19 VIA SQUARE ONE"

The rear sign would simply display "19".

In September 2005 all signs were updated so that that would be displayed like this (and 19A branch added)

"19 N HURONTARIO ~ TO BRAMPTON ~ VIA SQUARE ONE"

"19 S HURONTARIO ~ TO PORT CREDIT GO ~ VIA SQUARE ONE"

"19A N HURONTARIO ~ TO BRITANNIA ~ VIA SQUARE ONE"

"19A S HURONTARIO ~ TO PORT CREDIT GO ~ VIA SQUARE ONE"

With the rear sign displaying "19N", "19AN" or "19S" "19AS" respectively.

Then in late 2008, all signs were updated to this, with no change to the rear sign:

"19 N HURONTARIO ~ 19 TO BRAMPTON ~ 19 VIA SQUARE ONE"

"19 S HURONTARIO ~ 19 TO PORT CREDIT GO ~ 19 VIA SQUARE ONE"

"19A N HURONTARIO ~ 19A TO BRITANNIA ~ 19A VIA SQUARE ONE"

"19A S HURONTARIO ~ 19A TO PORT CREDIT GO ~ 19A VIA SQUARE ONE"

The latest updates combine the best of everything we've ever had: route number on every exposure, along with name, direction, intermediate points as well as end points. I'll reply here to questions about short turns and other signs if anyone is interested. :)

[RIPTA42]

I agree with what a few others have said; {Route #} {Route} / {Route #} TO {Destination} should be the industry best practice. I don't think signs should flip more than once, because you risk the overloading the customer with too much information and/or don't give enough time for everything to be read.

Destination signs at RIPTA are a mix of {Route #} {Destination} / {Route #} VIA {Route}; {Route #} {Route} / {Route #} {Destination}; {Route #} {Destination} / {Route #} VIA {Intermediate Point}; several that are just {Route #} {Destination}, with the destination usually just being a town name; and at least one I can think of that's simply {Route #} {Intermediate Point}. There are also a lot of short turns and route deviations, some of them significant, which makes for a very confusing system for the occasional rider.

[Guest]

I spotted an unusual dest. sign on a 54B S. Cicero bus a little while ago.

While travelling NB on Cicero. I saw Nova #6557 SB and the sign displayed

"54B S. Cicero Ford City (flips) Solo Cup". I guess they go to the Solo Cup factory on 75th west of Cicero.

[cta5658]

since some #14 Jeffery Express buses terminate at 87th i wonder how the destination signs look like when the #14 goes to 87th?

[Busjack]

I spotted an unusual dest. sign on a 54B S. Cicero bus a little while ago.

While travelling NB on Cicero. I saw Nova #6557 SB and the sign displayed

"54B S. Cicero Ford City (flips) Solo Cup". I guess they go to the Solo Cup factory on 75th west of Cicero.

I've seem 79s do that from a while back.

The 54B Schedule indicates trips to Solo Cup and Queen of Peace, just like for 79.

[MetroShadow]

I spotted an unusual dest. sign on a 54B S. Cicero bus a little while ago.

While travelling NB on Cicero. I saw Nova #6557 SB and the sign displayed

"54B S. Cicero Ford City (flips) Solo Cup". I guess they go to the Solo Cup factory on 75th west of Cicero.

I've seen those on the 79 buses also, I believe that's been going on for about 5 years (maybe longer).

One thing I've started to see more often is that CTA is starting to utilize both lines in their destination signs. I've seen them particularly more often on the 151's, 146's, the 84's (as we've mentioned in the past), but I've also seen one on the 68 as well (it was on a 500). I personally like the use of the two-line sign, as long as its used responsibly of course.

[jacksone44]

I've seen those on the 79 buses also, I believe that's been going on for about 5 years (maybe longer).

One thing I've started to see more often is that CTA is starting to utilize both lines in their destination signs. I've seen them particularly more often on the 151's, 146's, the 84's (as we've mentioned in the past), but I've also seen one on the 68 as well (it was on a 500). I personally like the use of the two-line sign, as long as its used responsibly of course.

Like this? I love it because it provides crisper communication to the public.

[jacksone44]

since some #14 Jeffery Express buses terminate at 87th i wonder how the destination signs look like when the #14 goes to 87th?

14 JEFFERY EXPRESS

14 TO 87TH

I saw one today.

[cta5658]

14 JEFFERY EXPRESS

14 TO 87TH

I saw one today.

And when #14 Buses Go To Stony/103rd (aka 103rd Garage) the sign is like thnis

14JEFFERY EXPRESS

14 TO STONY/103RD

[jajuan]

65 reads "TO HARLEM"

74 reads "TO GRAND"

both are very broad and frankly not accurate.

Actually the 74 sign isat least more accurate than the one for 65 in that once you're past the shopping center at Narangansett you're on Grand Avenue and not Fullerton. The only flaw is it doesn't show where on Grand it terminates. I'd say it's imprecise rather than inaccurate as in wrong.

[artthouwill]

Sort of like Pace. As far as I know the only Pace bus that has EASTBOUND and WESTBOUND is 208. I thought people knew where Evanston and Schaumburg are, but maybe not. Also, further reflection indicates that there are a number of places where both directions use the same stop--Golf Mill, Oakton, and Old Orchard.

For that matter, both directions of CTA 54A and 205 use the same stop at Old Orchard, and hence the bus stop sign does not distinguish directions. However, I assume that people knew the difference between Skokie Courthouse and the other terminal (Irving Park Blue Line or Howard Red Line).

Which gets me back to another of my pet peeves. 422 uses the same loop in Glenview coming and going. However, if the sign doesn't change at Northbrook Court, you can't tell which is which, especially on Saturday when both buses are there at about :38 (actually about :44). Sometimes the distinction is noticeable if the bus to Linden is running the usual (but incorrect) Lake Ave.{flip}Linden CTA, but not as much if it is running the correct Glenview {flip}Old Orchard {flip} Linden CTA one (the reverse route is Old Orchard {flip} Glenview {flip} Northbrk Ct).

And, of course, direction wise, what would one do with routes such as 423, which is officially northbound on Harlem, but actually southbound on Sheridan, as well as all the circular routes being established? At least the one CTA circular route (127), where they couldn't figure out to change the sign, was discontinued.

To throw out another CTA peeve--unless things recently changed, 55, X55 and 63 go to Midway Station, while 59 goes to Orange Line, but both are the same place. Is there a distinction because Midway Station is essentially on 59th?

I will be glad to jump on the pet peeve bandwagon in regards to signage:

1 Indiana/Hyde Pk: This bus no longer runs on Hyde Pk Blvd. Drop it already.

3 King DR to Chicago/Michigan: This route actually goes via Chicago Ave to Fairbanks and Ontario. Can't this part be included. It could read 3 King Dr/flip/to Fairbanks and Ontario/flip via Chicago, or 3 King Dr to Northwestern Univ

10 Museum of Science and Industry: Is this not an express bus?

100 Jeffery Manor Express: What's express about this route?

20 Madison to Millenium Park

56 Milwaukee to Washington/Michigan

Excuse me, but don't these buses terminate at the same place (rush hr service on 20 aside)?

144 Marine/Michigan Express

145 Wilson/Michigan Express

146 Inner Dr/Michigan Express

Why is Michigan in the name of these routes? Granted there use to be a 135 Wilson/LaSalle Express, since changed to Clarendon/LaSalle, but no reason for it now. Note the 147 does not read Outer Drive/Michigan Express.

[jacksone44]

CTA needs to make up their minds on the 151 as it relates to signage. Some buses read:

151 SHERIDAN TO

151 UNION STATION (The way I think it should be)

And some read:

151 SHERIDAN TO

151 UNION STA (Should be eliminated)

Vice versa for Northbound to Devon/Clark. How are these programmed? Why would some read different than others? Someone help me understand.

[trainman8119]

20 Madison to Millenium Park

56 Milwaukee to Washington/Michigan

Excuse me, but don't these buses terminate at the same place (rush hr service on 20 aside)?

Why they started including Millenuim Park on the 20 destination signs, I do not know.

However, it is a 3 line flip....20 Madison (flip) 20 to Michigan (flip) Millenium Park.

Must be some influence from da mare...even though he claims not to influence anyone.

I guess if it is good enough for the 20, it should be the same for the 56...I agree.

Will they ever drop the "via Washington" for the 124. It's been going via Wacker

for over a year now (maybe longer).

[trainman8119]

Actually the 74 sign isat least more accurate than the one for 65 in that once you're past the shopping center at Narangansett you're on Grand Avenue and not Fullerton. The only flaw is it doesn't show where on Grand it terminates. I'd say it's imprecise rather than inaccurate as in wrong.

No, the 74 signage is wrong, since Fullerton and Grand do actually intersect. The implication is

that the 74 terminates just west of Narragansett at Grand. The sign should read

74 to Grand/Nordica. This would be similar to what was programmed on the 84

stating the bus went to Caldwell..implying the bus went to Cicero and not Central.

Most (not quite all) have been changed since I went on the bandwagon on that

one awhile back.

We are seeing some of those famous LaSalle/Belmont route buses that end at Halsted,

as well as the Clark/Howard buses to the Red Line finding their ways onto the streets again.

[rvwnsd]

Like this? I love it because it provides crisper communication to the public.

The SD MTS signage in that picture is a recent phenomenon. In the past, they would show only the destination (like "Downtown SD"). What you don't see in that picture is how the signs flip on routes that serve different communities or run along different streets. For example, route #2 operates between Downtown San Diego and the intersection of 30th and Adams in the North Park neighborhood and travels through the Golden Hill community on Broadway and 30th streets. So, the sign heading out to 30th and Adams reads like this:

The entire left side of the display is the route number, in this case "2."

The top line is in bold letters and contains the destination, in this case "NORTH PARK"

The second line is in non-bold characters and starts "via BROADWAY" flips to "via GOLDEN HILL" flips to "via 30th STREET" and then repeats.

On longer routes, it can take a while to scroll through the sign but it is very informative.