NABIs Pulled from Service

[geneking7320]

Is anyone aware of other U.S. transit operators using NABI 60ft low floor [Non-BRT] buses?

I imagine CTA was the first and with our experience likely the last.

Gene King

[Kevin]

Is anyone aware of other U.S. transit operators using NABI 60ft low floor [Non-BRT] buses?

I imagine CTA was the first and with our experience likely the last.

Gene King

CTA is the only agency with the 60LFW model. LA has the BRT version, but hasn't reported any problems thus far. (Nevermind, see next post...)

[daerah]

I seem to recall last year LA (or someone on the right coast) had similar problems with their NABI BRT buses, can anyone confirm?

Sadly, yes. The NABI 60-BRT at Los Angles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority or "Metro/ MTA" has detected structural cracks and serious premature defects in the hinge joint connections as well. Once this nightmare unfolded on our equipment at CTA, I immediately thought back to the bus at MTA, and their discovered defects. Though I dont recall of any them breaking apart, it was rumored among us operators, but I wasnt aware of an official report, But mta was pulling them off the streets, and correcting the problem.

I love NABI period. I've driven the 40LFW, 40C LFW (Compobus), 45C (Compbus), & 60LFW *At CTA*...and I have high regard for them. But facts are facts...NABI just cant seem to get it together with articulated buses. I dont know how the 436s (high floor) artics are, Ive never rode or driven those.

Here are some of the photos. Of them being in RRC (Regional Rebuild Center) to be repaired.

[RailBus63]

Anyone who rides the NABI's regularly shouldn't be surprised that these things have been pulled off the road. I ride the 147 every day to and from work, and for a good long while before the 4000s arrived, I rode NABI's 99% of the time.

These buses are truly horrible. Even rare examples in "good" condition (1 in 100, i'd say), rattle so badly, they feel like they are just one small frost heave from shattering into a thousand pieces all over LSD. But most of them aren't in "good" condition. Their suspension is so stiff that every crack in the road sends a jarring shove right up your spine. Big bumps can take the breath right out of you. And then there's the odd NABI whose suspension has completely collapsed, usually at the rearmost axle. I ride a NABI with collapsed (that is, deflated air spring bags) suspension probably 1/5 of the time, and it's almost always on the rearmost axle. On one of these buses, big bumps can throw you right out of your seat such that you literally sand up. I've learned just about every bump along the rout I travel, and so lift my butt out of the seat in anticipation. The deafening thud over a big bump i sneough to make fellow commuters gasp every time.

The result? Well, before the NABI's were pulled off the road today, the superficial effect of these rough riding beasts was that interior lights and panels were almost always loose, dangling from that last suborn screw holding things together.

Apparently, and unsurprisingly, all that banging around finally caused one to fail. And I'm really surprised it's the first one to fail badly enough to cause public attention. I recall several buses with completely failed suspensions (rear axle airbags deflated) that weren't fixed for days.

Your post just further reinforces my belief that maintenance (or the lack thereof) has played a role in this issue. Anyone who has ever owned an automobile knows that you need to keep the front-end aligned, tires properly inflated and balanced, and other subsystems maintained or the car will gradually develop serious vibrations that can soon cause other problems. This problem is no doubt exponentially worse with city buses that endure punishment from four to sixteen hours a day - who knows what stresses have been put on those articulation joints?

Here's to hoping the comfy, soft-riding Hybrid artics are reliable enough to replace the 7500s once and for all.

Ottawa and other cities are having their own issues with New Flyer's artics. If maintenance is not sufficient, those buses will soon have their own problems.

[Busjack]

Sadly, yes.

As T8H often says, "Do you have photographic proof of that?" You sure do.

Thinking that the following reply goes better in this thread:

The cost of all these bus garage transfers will likely be added into the litigation against NABI for selling "defective" buses to the Authority.

["Plaintiff was compelled, due to safety concerns, to reassign and relocate functioning buses to serve on routes on which the buses manufactured by the defendant had been operating."]

I said I wasn't going to respond to this type of post, but like Illinois politicians, I lied. To make it short:

• Since the claims are based on breach of warranty, most warranties disclaim consequential damages.
  

And to get this out of my system, for those of you (not pudgy, but others) who think NABI will pay for a replacement fleet:

• Warranties only cover the cost of repair, unless that exceeds the cost of a replacement with a good of like kind.
  

For those of you who think there will be a "plaintiff," I wouldn't be surprised if there was an arbitration clause.

Finally, I wouldn't be surprised if this was a Circuit City situation. NABI may be judgment proof, and while its warranties may be insured, I wouldn't be surprised if it were by a company like AIG.

Happy litigating. Again, remember what was Dorval Carter's job at CTA before he went to DOT.

[jajuan]

I'll agree that the media doesn't know the CTA fleet and hasn't tried to get complete enough details for its reports. All morning WGN has been reporting how CTA pulled all 226 of "its accordion-style 60 ft buses service due to safety concerns" without mentioning it's only the NABI buses that have caused the concern. I'll agree with 5750 that this can cause some confusion and scare some into not boarding one of the DE60LFs which are not affected. It doesn't help that in the 6pm ABC7 report, a 103rd 4000 serving the 14 was shown onscreen when giving its report on the NABIs. Channel 7 was a little better in that it did say it was artic buses built by North American Bus Industries pulled while WGN pratically says its all arctics in the fleet with safety concerns.

[Busjack]

I'll agree that the media doesn't know the CTA fleet and hasn't tried to get complete enough details for its reports.

The Channel 2 report last night was pretty good, in saying that it only affected the North American Bus Industries and saying that the CTA had an inkling this would happen because they stopped payment in 2005.

[exitzero]

the tmc and 5300 are back in service yes

Don't get my hopes up!

I'll come back to Chicago for that...

[jajuan]

The Channel 2 report last night was pretty good, in saying that it only affected the North American Bus Industries and saying that the CTA had an inkling this would happen because they stopped payment in 2005.

Thanks for the link. I guess part of this points out how we can take for granted having ChicagoBus.org as an extra resource for info.

[Busjack]

Thanks for the link. I guess part of this points out how we can take for granted having ChicagoBus.org as an extra resource for info.

Speaking of that, a question for any NP driver:

Were strings pulled to have a New Flyer flashing a Hybrid message sitting at the Howard Terminal for Channel 2? Or was the presence of that "prop" just something that happened?

[sw4400]

Right now this is just one bus...why the big panic?

Look at this clip from abc7chicago.com...

"It's a crack so significant that sources tell ABC7 the only things keeping the front and back of the bus together were power steering and cooling lines, plus that rubberized material that gives the bus its accordion."

Full article here: http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=n...&id=6668790

I think if just one bus is that bad, it's time to pull all of them for either early retirement or a emergency safety inspection to determine their fitness to continue service with the CTA... and after seeing these photos, NABI manufacturers better go and start praying for a miracle, because it doesn't look good right now!!! This'll seriously affect transit agencies' decisions to do business with NABI in the future.

I remember seeing some MAN's that had these kind of separations back in the day. How much

of this is simply the trials and tribulations of artics in general, and can we, in the future, expect

to see some of this with the New Flyers.

I don't think the M.A.N's had seperations of this severity, and if the New Flyers start having these kinds of problems, then I think it's time to stop ordering Artics and go back to 40' buses, as no manufacturer can make a decent, safe articulated bus!!! This is a very serious safety issue, and personally, I hope the inspector takes the NABI's off-line permanently! They have a serious problem with their 60' buses, as the LA County Metro clip above(w/pictures) states! It's not just the CTA's NABI's, it's their NABI's too! How can a company be so careless with their buses and still be in business is beyond me...

PACE riders and drivers have complained about the 40-LFW's because of their shocks(I know how bad they are, I rode one and the shocks were terrible in that bus!). Thankfully, they're not articulated, or PACE would be in the same boat as the CTA and LA County Metro.

[BusHunter]

Speaking of that, a question

Were strings pulled to have a New Flyer flashing a Hybrid message sitting at the Howard Terminal for Channel 2? Or was the presence of that "prop" just something that happened?

Most likely a natural occurance. Probably it just happened that way. I'm somewhat suspicious of this crack myself. We all know NABI's were in the process of being retired. This event could justify an early retirement. I find it interesting that this happened when the bus was under it's lightest load (empty) Well anyway depending on what the inspection says, that will decide the NABI"s fate or whether CTA might have to actually think about bringing back some retired buses as an emergency. As for the fleet count, 77th has received #6444 - #6452 back from Archer as well as #1094 - #1099 from 74th to help replace there loss of #4012 -#4036 evens which have gone back to 103rd. A few Novas from FG went to NP #6800, #6801, #6735 and a few others. Kedzie has received a few from everywhere #1345 from Chicago, #1820, #1558 from 103rd, #1768 from NP, #6541 and #6542 from Archer to help offset there loss. Even though it has been reported 94 NF #4000's are here, only up to #4083 was on the street as of yesterday as well as up to #1993.

[daerah]

I would love to get my grubby hands on a new "allison transmission" 1930+ series at Kedzie.

[sw4400]

If retired buses make an apperance again(for a very short time), here's the order they'll appear most likely...

All retired operable 6000's will be put back on the road

All retired operable 5800's will be put back on the road

All retired, still operable 5300's will be put back on the road

All retired, still operable 4400's will be put back on the road

The least possible un-retireables(if the CTA goes this route)

The TMC's will be the last considered because of their numbers(4400-4875), as this number series will conflict with the incoming New Flyers(4000-4899*).

The Flxible 5300's can be put back on the road, if they're still road capable(some were very sluggish and according to some operators, breaking down left and right).

The best possible un-retireables(if the CTA goes this route)

The 6000's that were retired(6003,6016,6071,6078,6088,6089,6098,6110,6111,6115,6116,6143,6146,6185,6198,6203,6210,6226,6235,6276,6295,6301,6307,6309,6311,6313,6314,6315,6317,6319 and 6325. 31 buses total) could be put back on the road shortly, if all are in operable condition.

The 5800's that were retired and are still operable(somewhere between 50-60) can be put back on the road shortly, if they are still operable.

That would give the CTA somewhere between 81-91 extra buses to help ease the burden on the passengers on the high volume routes that use NABI's.

*Presuming all options are exercised

[Busjack]

I don't think the M.A.N's had seperations of this severity, and if the New Flyers start having these kinds of problems, then I think it's time to stop ordering Artics and go back to 40' buses, as no manufacturer can make a decent, safe articulated bus!!!

There may be a difference in that the MANs were puller buses (the engines under the front end) while current ones are pushers (the engine is in the back). They seem to need a different joint, to keep the pusher from jackknifing.

Search the web for FTA waivers and the like, it appears that NABI and New Flyer use the same articulation joint (a reference to both having sought Buy American waivers for it). The FTA post indicates that it is a Hubner joint, and NovaBus also says that it uses it.

My recollection of the 2005 Tribune article was that there was more of a problem with where the joint attached to the bus frame rather than the joint itself. That probably is subject to contradiction.

Nonetheless, you may have a point that there may be an inherent flaw in that type of bus.

[sw4400]

There may be a difference in that the MANs were puller buses (the engines under the front end) while current ones are pushers (the engine is in the back).

Search the web for FTA waivers and the like, it appears that NABI and New Flyer use the same articulation joint (a reference to both having sought Buy American waivers for it). They seem to need a different joint, to keep the pusher from jackknifing. The FTA post indicates that it is a Hubner joint, and NovaBus also says that it uses it.

Busjack, I'm not one to voice concern, but you just set an alarm off here... should we be concerned about the 900+ New Flyer DE60LF's too, since they use the same Hubner joint in their buses, as do NOVA(which the CTA doesn't have any of)?

[Busjack]

Busjack, I'm not one to voice concern, but you just set an alarm off here... should we be concerned about the 900+ New Flyer DE60LF's too, since they use the same Hubner joint in their buses, as do NOVA(which the CTA doesn't have any of)?

Don't know.

However, this sounds again more like the 1980 Grumman episode--everyone pulled their buses for inspection just because NY MTA noted a problem. Maybe that should happen here.

I also wonder about buying buses on the Seattle spec., especially when the responses to Proposer One on the CTA RFP said that the proposer had to provide a bus that would stand up to Chicago's more corrosive salts.

[qwantae]

North Park and Kedzie are likely get Novas from Forest Glen and Archer respectively, which are originally delivered at Chicago garage, due to a lack of buses

Does it means that 500s are operating on busy routes now???

[busfan4022]

Is it that time to borrow from PACE again?

Maybe we'll get Nova Classics this time. ;D

[Busjack]

Is it that time to borrow from PACE again?

Maybe we'll get Nova Classics this time. ;D

Go back and read this post. And what is Pace supposed to run?

[cta_44499_FG]

Speaking of that, a question for any NP driver:

Were strings pulled to have a New Flyer flashing a Hybrid message sitting at the Howard Terminal for Channel 2? Or was the presence of that "prop" just something that happened?

Couldn't tell you Mr. Busjack, I go to the 151 Sheridan where I'm relatively safe from either of the two evils. I only have to see an artic once or maybe twice a week, and thats too many.

I will just call a coincidence, since I really don't know and an answer would be lying.

And before TH8 can even say it...NO, I do NOT have photographic proof of this.

[MT0851]

Search the web for FTA waivers and the like, it appears that NABI and New Flyer use the same articulation joint (a reference to both having sought Buy American waivers for it). The FTA post indicates that it is a Hubner joint, and NovaBus also says that it uses it.

You're somewhat wrong.

NFI stopped using the Hubner joints back in 2006, they now use joints supplied from ATG called the Lyon artic-O-Mat ( http://www.articulated-bus.com/pages/products_j_lyon.htm ). Look at pictures of the joints on your 4000s that have the ATG joint, you'll notice the turntable is a full circle divided in 3 pieces and it turns on both ends and the middle part of the joint is a big hinge like piece that goes up and down. On your NABIs with the Hubner joints, the turntable is one big piece, that turns on the trailer end of the unit and hinges on the tractor side of the unit.

You can see the differences in these two pictures, here's a picture of the joint on an Mississauga Transit D60LFR (Which has an ATG joint) http://www.majhost.com/gallery/D60LFR/D60L...ized_photos.jpg

Here's a picture showing the joint of a CTA NABI 60-LFW, http://chicagobus.org/photo/7572

Busjack, I'm not one to voice concern, but you just set an alarm off here... should we be concerned about the 900+ New Flyer DE60LF's too, since they use the same Hubner joint in their buses, as do NOVA(which the CTA doesn't have any of)?

Reffer to the post above.

Anyways, here's my 2 cents. I think this all has to do with improper maintenance procedures.

For an example, lets compare OC Transpos troublesome D60LFs which are from 2001-2004 to Mississauga Transit's 1997 and 2001 D60LFs and Vancouver Translink's D60LFs which are from 1998-2001. OC Transpo has had a bunch of fires and lots of problems with the joints and lots of engine overheating problems where at times 25% of the fleet would be out of service. Mississauga Transit's 1997 D60LFs (Which were the first production model D60LFs) and 2001 D60LFs, or Translink's D60LFs never experienced problems like this. OC Transpo apparently has a shoddy maintenance program according to a CTV news report done last year while Mississauga Transit and Translink both have preventative maintenance programs.

So what does that tell you guys.

[Busjack]

You're somewhat wrong.

NFI stopped using the Hubner joints back in 2006, they now use joints supplied from ATG called the Lyon artic-O-Mat ...

Thanks for the clarification.

Anyways, here's my 2 cents. I think this all has to do with improper maintenance procedures....

However, the structural issues with the NABIs go back to 2005, as CTA stopped payment then, while the deliveries were being completed.

I suppose it will have to be determined what made this particular bus split, but seems not to be just lack of maintenance.

[mbta9244]

NFI stopped using the Hubner joints back in 2006, they now use joints supplied from ATG called the Lyon artic-O-Mat ( http://www.articulated-bus.com/pages/products_j_lyon.htm ). Look at pictures of the joints on your 4000s that have the ATG joint, you'll notice the turntable is a full circle divided in 3 pieces and it turns on both ends and the middle part of the joint is a big hinge like piece that goes up and down. On your NABIs with the Hubner joints, the turntable is one big piece, that turns on the trailer end of the unit and hinges on the tractor side of the unit.

You can see the differences in these two pictures, here's a picture of the joint on an Mississauga Transit D60LFR (Which has an ATG joint) http://www.majhost.com/gallery/D60LFR/D60L...ized_photos.jpg

Here's a picture showing the joint of a CTA NABI 60-LFW, http://chicagobus.org/photo/7572

Reffer to the post above.

Anyways, here's my 2 cents. I think this all has to do with improper maintenance procedures.

For an example, lets compare OC Transpos troublesome D60LFs which are from 2001-2004 to Mississauga Transit's 1997 and 2001 D60LFs and Vancouver Translink's D60LFs which are from 1998-2001. OC Transpo has had a bunch of fires and lots of problems with the joints and lots of engine overheating problems where at times 25% of the fleet would be out of service. Mississauga Transit's 1997 D60LFs (Which were the first production model D60LFs) and 2001 D60LFs, or Translink's D60LFs never experienced problems like this. OC Transpo apparently has a shoddy maintenance program according to a CTV news report done last year while Mississauga Transit and Translink both have preventative maintenance programs.

So what does that tell you guys.

Calgary Transit had to send many of their D60LFR's to some outfit in California (Not sure of the name, sorry) to have some modifications done to their ATG joints after finding problems with them. I do not recall at this moment if any other systems had similar problems or not.

[MT0851]

Calgary Transit had to send many of their D60LFR's to some outfit in California (Not sure of the name, sorry) to have some modifications done to their ATG joints after finding problems with them. I do not recall at this moment if any other systems had similar problems or not.

Mississauga's D60LFRs all went to Mississauga Truck and Bus for modifications to the joint too. Apparently the hydraulics for the anti-jackknife feature were locking up on them, causing the loud creaking the joints would make when they turned.

Then there was problems with loose bolts in the joint, caused by out of service units going back to CPKY Garage which have to go over a really bad railway crossing. However that apparently has since been rectefied too.