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#4000 Americanas lifetime assignment list and other info.

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I put together a chart of the #4000 Americanas lifetime assignments from beginning to end. I'm also providing retirement info on what was left of the Americanas before they retired. (A bit of a review of what I posted earlier, but someone had difficulty finding the info so I'm posting it again)

post-304-1304692655446_thumb.jpgpost-304-13046926932057_thumb.jpg

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I put together a chart of the #4000 Americanas lifetime assignments from beginning to end. I'm also providing retirement info on what was left of the Americanas before they retired. (A bit of a review of what I posted earlier, but someone had difficulty finding the info so I'm posting it again) I might have a few errors on the pre 1989 stuff, but post 1989 should be accurate. post-304-1304692655446_thumb.jpgpost-304-13046926932057_thumb.jpg

I still remember when the MAN Americanas were assigned to FG back in early 2000s. I loved getting the chance to drive them. They were good buses, mainly assigned, if memory serves me, to the #152 Addison. We had a good fleet of buses back then. Flxibles, TMC RTS, Flyers and MANs. What a time it was! :)

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I still remember when the MAN Americanas were assigned to FG back in early 2000s. I loved getting the chance to drive them. They were good buses, mainly assigned, if memory serves me, to the #152 Addison. We had a good fleet of buses back then. Flxibles, TMC RTS, Flyers and MANs. What a time it was! :)

IIRC, the MANs were at FG during a short period between when 77, A and C got Novas and there were enough equipment shifts to other garages that enough MANs were freed up to retire the FG Flyers. Then, when FG got Novas, their MANs were retired.

I also seem to remember that in addition to 152, 91 Austin was also one of the last routes in that area to be declared accessible, and got some MANs.* However, 8 or 9 years later, don't hold me to whether 91 had MANs in addition to Flyers.

_______________

*Because of Taft H.S.?????????

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IIRC, the MANs were at FG during a short period between when 77, A and C got Novas and there were enough equipment shifts to other garages that enough MANs were freed up to retire the FG Flyers. Then, when FG got Novas, their MANs were retired.

I also seem to remember that in addition to 152, 91 Austin was also one of the last routes in that area to be declared accessible, and got some MANs.* However, 8 or 9 years later, don't hold me to whether 91 had MANs in addition to Flyers.

_______________

*Because of Taft H.S.?????????

Your pretty much correct, The #9800's, #1600's Flyers were retired mostly through forest Glen, MAN's started coming in and eventually took over the inaccessible fleet there in Sept 2001. Later in 2002 when the order came in for the Novas the Man's were virtually eliminated except for the 55 plus that lived on until the NABI purchase. Austin was declared accessible when the MAN's were gone along with the #152, #54A and a few others.

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Your pretty much correct, The #9800's, #1600's Flyers were retired mostly through forest Glen, MAN's started coming in and eventually took over the inaccessible fleet there in Sept 2001. Later in 2002 when the order came in for the Novas the Man's were virtually eliminated except for the 55 plus that lived on until the NABI purchase. Austin was declared accessible when the MAN's were gone along with the #152, #54A and a few others.

And the MAN's that used to be at 77th were transferred to 103rd when it opened in 1988, where they were mainstays until TMC's from Archer and Chicago came along in July-October 2001

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IIRC, the MANs were at FG during a short period between when 77, A and C got Novas and there were enough equipment shifts to other garages that enough MANs were freed up to retire the FG Flyers. Then, when FG got Novas, their MANs were retired.

I also seem to remember that in addition to 152, 91 Austin was also one of the last routes in that area to be declared accessible, and got some MANs.* However, 8 or 9 years later, don't hold me to whether 91 had MANs in addition to Flyers.

_______________

*Because of Taft H.S.?????????

Thanks for refreshing my memory. I didnt work #91 Austin often, very rarely in fact. I do recall MANs being assigned along with Flyers to the Austin route on occasion. Addison and Austin routes were the last FG routes to become accessible.

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Any chance you could start a sub-forum with each of the different lifetime assignment lists? Having them all in one sub-forum or as "sticky" threads on this forum would be awesome.

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Here's a few pictures of the #4000's on Austin and Addison. post-304-13047418260526_thumb.jpg post-304-13047416114767_thumb.jpgpost-304-13047416357642_thumb.jpgpost-304-13047416600048_thumb.jpgand a few interior shots post-304-13047419327957_thumb.jpgpost-304-13047421024075_thumb.jpg

I miss driving those MAN buses, they were good vehicles!

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Here's a few pictures of the #4000's on Austin and Addison. post-304-13047418260526_thumb.jpg post-304-13047416114767_thumb.jpgpost-304-13047416357642_thumb.jpgpost-304-13047416600048_thumb.jpgand a few interior shots post-304-13047419327957_thumb.jpgpost-304-13047421024075_thumb.jpg

I miss driving those MAN buses. Very beat up, but they were good vehicles! They did the job!

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I miss driving those MAN buses, they were good vehicles!

I remember seeing those buses rip through 111th, 115th, 103rd, vincennes and 95th

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Here's a few pictures of the #4000's on Austin and Addison. post-304-13047418260526_thumb.jpg post-304-13047416114767_thumb.jpgpost-304-13047416357642_thumb.jpgpost-304-13047416600048_thumb.jpgand a few interior shots post-304-13047419327957_thumb.jpgpost-304-13047421024075_thumb.jpg

Gosh!!! I miss those MAN so bad, the engine noise when it whistles/ chime screams while accelerates, plus Brown/Orange color seating. I was always so disappointed when they were so neglected during their last times at North Park around 2002-04 I did wish that they got a chance to have the Street Announcement/ Time-date systems on thsm before their final retirement, around those years Routes 145-146 were my favorite NP routes because of the MANs. I even miss them on old #6-Jeffery Espress along with 7100s Artics. Good Ol' Days!!!

P.S. it was so sad to hear that most of NP newbie drivers couldn't wait for them to retire because the heater barely works, breaks down alot, none A/C equipment.

May R.I.P Americans!!!

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Gosh!!! I miss those MAN so bad, the engine noise when it whistles/ chime screams while accelerates, plus Brown/Orange color seating. I was always so disappointed when they were so neglected during their last times at North Park around 2002-04 I did wish that they got a chance to have the Street Announcement/ Time-date systems on thsm before their final retirement, around those years Routes 145-146 were my favorite NP routes because of the MANs. I even miss them on old #6-Jeffery Espress along with 7100s Artics. Good Ol' Days!!!

P.S. it was so sad to hear that most of NP newbie drivers couldn't wait for them to retire because the heater barely works, breaks down alot, none A/C equipment.

May R.I.P Americans!!!

I heard the same complaints from NP's newbies at the time and always laughed because it was during the time the 4400s were almost all rehabbed, and even from a passengers point of view NP's 4400s like the rest of them were sluggish even compared a MAN 4000. :lol:

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I always liked the MAN buses. Even in their old age, they looked great.

I think someone mentioned that the 4400 series were to be MANs but the deal fell through. Anyone have additional info on that?

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I always liked the MAN buses. Even in their old age, they looked great.

I think someone mentioned that the 4400 series were to be MANs but the deal fell through. Anyone have additional info on that?

I don't know if anyone does, but it's probably locked in CTA's vaults(just like the 2nd order of Flyer D901A's that was set to start in 1984-1985 but fell through.... Flyers might've been 4000-4361 there)

As far as M.A.N getting the 4400-4875 contract for Americanas, that is true from what I've heard. What stopped that was the Buy America act more than anything as M.A.N was pretty much built overseas in West Munich, Germany, although there was a North Carolina plant at this time, but the engine, transmission, etc... all came from Germany, the shells were built here. I personally don't believe ADA compliance was a big role here, as M.A.N started to introduce lift-equipped buses as early as 1982 with the Articulateds from Seattle we got for a time. No doubt, Americanas could've been equipped with lifts(I think the 1987 Minnesota Americanas were lift-equipped). The Buy America act killed the original order of 4400's being built and giving TMC the business instead.

There were actual 1984-1985 Flyer D901A shells built for CTA, but ultimately used instead by the Winnipeg Transit Authority.

Pic #1 Pic #2 Pic #3 Pic #4

Here's a video of one of these 1984-1985 Flyer D901A's running and operating.

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I don't know if anyone does, but it's probably locked in CTA's vaults(just like the 2nd order of Flyer D901A's that was set to start in 1984-1985 but fell through.... Flyers might've been 4000-4361 there)

As far as M.A.N getting the 4400-4875 contract for Americanas, that is true from what I've heard. What stopped that was the Buy America act more than anything as M.A.N was pretty much built overseas in West Munich, Germany, although there was a North Carolina plant at this time, but the engine, transmission, etc... all came from Germany, the shells were built here. I personally don't believe ADA compliance was a big role here, as M.A.N started to introduce lift-equipped buses as early as 1982 with the Articulateds from Seattle we got for a time. No doubt, Americanas could've been equipped with lifts(I think the 1987 Minnesota Americanas were lift-equipped). The Buy America act killed the original order of 4400's being built and giving TMC the business instead.

There were actual 1984-1985 Flyer D901A shells built for CTA, but ultimately used instead by the Winnipeg Transit Authority.

Pic #1 Pic #2 Pic #3 Pic #4

Here's a video of one of these 1984-1985 Flyer D901A's running and operating.

Again, you keep ignoring the obvious.

The Flyer D901s were rusty junk, and a number of them were rejected on delivery. That's why Winnipeg got them.

The 3 issues on the MANs were:

  • The other assemblers protested what they considered to be a single source specification, and essentially won.
  • The disability advocates sued and held up the procurement, and CTA relented essentially only after forced to do so by the ADA of 1990.
  • The German parts part was relevant only to the extent that MAN couldn't make money in the US, and closed its North Carolina plant before the resolicitation

I suppose that next in your imagination, the 7900s were supposed to be Orions.* The story there is essentially the same--Daimler pulled out of the market. Similarly, there is a reason why the 1000s were not Novas--NovaBus pulled out of the market in 2002. We can, of course, speculate why they were not NABIs, even though NABI posted that it has the apparent low bid.

________

*Let's ignore that fool who thought they were going to be MTS.

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The MAN Americanas were awesome buses! I spent most of my time at CTA either driving those or the Flx Metros. I really enjoyed driving them. The heat was pretty good in the winter. What I liked is the European feel to them, meaning the way they look the way they sound and drive!. It didn't feel like an American bus. I once had the chance to drive one on Irving Park which was then already a 100 percent lift route.Id give anything to see one again or drive one! I sure do miss those buses!

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Again, you keep ignoring the obvious.

The Flyer D901s were rusty junk, and a number of them were rejected on delivery. That's why Winnipeg got them.

The 3 issues on the MANs were:

  • The other assemblers protested what they considered to be a single source specification, and essentially won.
  • The disability advocates sued and held up the procurement, and CTA relented essentially only after forced to do so by the ADA of 1990.
  • The German parts part was relevant only to the extent that MAN couldn't make money in the US, and closed its North Carolina plant before the resolicitation

I suppose that next in your imagination, the 7900s were supposed to be Orions.* The story there is essentially the same--Daimler pulled out of the market. Similarly, there is a reason why the 1000s were not Novas--NovaBus pulled out of the market in 2002. We can, of course, speculate why they were not NABIs, even though NABI posted that it has the apparent low bid.

________

*Let's ignore that fool who thought they were going to be MTS.

MAN delivery lists do show 3 model 892 SL-40102A were under construction in 1987 for cta and these were believed to be lift equipped (4000 were Model 792). They were not completed. They closed the US production in 1988 after competing an order for 108 Americanas Model 792 for Metro Minneapolis (1351-1458)

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Point #2 is stricken, Busjack, because M.A.N made lift-equipped buses as far back as 1982(Seattle Artics, remember?). CTA didn't order lift-equipped buses in 1985 and could've easily modified the contract for wheelchair lifts in 1989. The biggest things that killed this order was the possibility of other companies protesting being left out of the order chance, but the biggest killer was the Buy America act, that's one of the main reasons CTA gave the contract to TMC, an American company.

Now maybe the 2nd order of Flyers would've been an add-on to the 1600-Series, or perhaps a different number series, but Flyer would not have made shells for buses that were not intended to be built(the 9800's and the 1600's were one order, split into two number groups). These Flyers that were given to Winnipeg would've been, in essence, the M.A.N Americana order that CTA got. The shells were made in 1984-1985, and the M.A.N Americana order no doubt was placed in 1984 so they could begin delivery in 1985. I thought for a minute the 1600's might've been the start of a different order, then I read Kevin's info page...

In 1983, the CTA purchased a total of 200 buses from Flyer. This order was actually delivered in two series, the 9800-series (175 buses) and 1600-series (25 buses). While both had identical appearance, the 9800-series offered more seats than the 1600-series.

Even the 900 DE60LF order that was cancelled, there was verbiage in the contract about options for up to 900 more and New Flyer jumped the gun on that contract. Now the internet as we know it wasn't around in 1984 and 1989, so the only way to find out the truth about the M.A.N order and the Flyer order is if we know someone in the CTA Archives, provided all those old documents haven't been shredded by now, unless someone on the forum has a inside source about this.

Pic #4's quote from the photographer...

1985 Flyer Industries D901. 6V71N engine, Bennett electric shifter. Has three-step front entry like 1984

Chicago units as shells were built for the 2nd order which CTA ultimately cancelled

But I'm sticking to my thoughts on these contract possibilities, as it's my opinion..... of which we are all entitled to have and share! There's enough meat on the bones to put into thought that the 4000-series order could've been Flyers and the 4400-series order might very well have been M.A.N Americanas. Various factors(issues with order #1 of the Flyers and the Buy America Act and other bus manufacturer compaints with the Americana order) played key roles in this not happening, but there's enough evidence out there that it was in the works...

BTW, this is not imagination..... tell the photographer it's their imagination too...

Buy America became effective in 1983. The MAN 4000s were delivered starting in 1985. So I'm sorry the Buy America Act could not have been all that much of a factor in the 4400s being TMCs instead of additional MANs to go with the 362 that CTA had received. By that logic we shouldn't and wouldn't have had the 362 Americanas that did serve Chicago transit riders for 19 years in the first place. You can have your own opinions but you can't have your own facts. If buy America were such a factor as you claim then NO TA in the US would have ever had Americanas at all. And you can't strike the ADA factor and its related issues either because while MAN had wheelchair accessible buses available CTA wasn't jumping at the bit to get any wheelchair buses for regular transit service at all during the 1980s which is why the disability advocates sued at the time and had that issue tied up in court for much of the rest of that decade. ADA became law July 26, 1990 which as Busjack noted in a post he made months made the litigation remaining against CTA moot because by that time they like all other TAs had to comply with the law and buy transit buses from that point onward that were wheelchair accessible. It was no longer optional like in the 1980s. When they had the choice to get wheelchair buses, they didn't move to make that choice and actually fought it tooth and nail because like with air conditioning at the time, lifts were looked upon as an extravagance they couldn't afford. The protests made to the feds by the other TAs explains the rest of why the 4400s were from TMC instead of MAN as originally planned and intended.

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MAN delivery lists do show 3 model 892 SL-40102A were under construction in 1987 for cta and these were believed to be lift equipped (4000 were Model 792). They were not completed. They closed the US production in 1988 after competing an order for 108 Americanas Model 792 for Metro Minneapolis (1351-1458)

Supposedly the difference (according to Andre) was that the 892 was supposed to have a rear window. Apparently TMC took care of that problem by putting the extension with the window on the rear, instead of the usual A/C..

As noted, other TAs were able to get accessible 792s.

Places like NYC and Detroit had accessible RTSs from the early 1980s, but the rub was that they were the back door. FTA agreed with CTA that the lift should be at the front door, and thus why the RTS08 was developed.

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Buy America became effective in 1983. ...

Darn, to whatever you replied was deleted.

The only other thing I can note is that someone had posted before the FTA procurement rules as understood by SF Muni. If it is for federal money the choices are (1) competitive bids (2) assignable options from a competitively bid contract, or (3) using a multijurisdiction contract (i.e. the state of Minnesota was the lead agency taking bids on contracts that SF used).

The latest New Flyer quarterly report has several more twists on this theme, relevant to the 900 bus order:

  • While FTA allows assignment of options, it no longer allows a contract with options the solicitor does not intend to use. Hence, no more 900 artic bus solicitations.
  • Apparently learning from that episode, NF reports (since about then) does not book backlog when the board approves the contract, but NF has not received the paperwork to start production.

In any event (as the protest in 1988 demonstrates), CTA is not allowed to buy buses "because 15 year old parts will fit" and other reasons surmised here.

Also, as busfan2847 pointed out in his last post, it doesn't make any difference if the manufacturer decides to leave the market after partially assembling a couple of prototypes.

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Darn, to whatever you replied was deleted.

The only other thing I can note is that someone had posted before the FTA procurement rules as understood by SF Muni. If it is for federal money the choices are (1) competitive bids (2) assignable options from a competitively bid contract, or (3) using a multijurisdiction contract (i.e. the state of Minnesota was the lead agency taking bids on contracts that SF used).

The latest New Flyer quarterly report has several more twists on this theme, relevant to the 900 bus order:

  • While FTA allows assignment of options, it no longer allows a contract with options the solicitor does not intend to use. Hence, no more 900 artic bus solicitations.
  • Apparently learning from that episode, NF reports (since about then) does not book backlog when the board approves the contract, but NF has not received the paperwork to start production.

In any event (as the protest in 1988 demonstrates), CTA is not allowed to buy buses "because 15 year old parts will fit" and other reasons surmised here.

Also, as busfan2847 pointed out in his last post, it doesn't make any difference if the manufacturer decides to leave the market after partially assembling a couple of prototypes.

It was in response to sw countering what you mentioned about ADA and the protests made against CTA for originally wanting the 4400s and possibly 5300s to be more Americanas. He basically wanted to hold to his stance that Buy America was the main reason CTA's Americana count went no higher than the 362 they had with an additional stance that that ADA played little or no role because MAN had accessible buses available on the American market starting in 1982. I was pretty much making the point that the facts of that time in CTA history didn't support his counter stance or his conclusions that he wished to make and hold on to. The text of his response is still part of my response that you responded to.

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I miss these buses so much. If I had a time machine, I would go back and ride one of these bad boys. I hate so much that I was so scared of buses as a child. :angry: :angry: :angry:

Although I was never scared of buses, I remember being afraid to leap off the steps of the Marmon-Herrington trolley buses when I was little, ie, about three or four years old.

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