No Purple Express During Brown Line Bridge Reroute

[chgofan78]

Why couldn't they put the same standard mylar sign with all destinations on all the cars ? The 21 limit ? Some of the 2600's can't even display a Purple Loop.

I think the problem started right around the time the 5000-series was most recently put back into revenue service on the Pink Line and the 2600-series from the Pink Line made their way over to the Red and Purple Lines. There was a small group of cars that had their cab stickers and marker lights changed, but not their actual roller curtains signs. The problem was fixed, but a few cars are still incorrect. There's even some married pairs that have mismated signs. And, since there are 5 different versions of signs out there now and each version has the Red Line "Howard" and "95th" in the same position, you'd never know if your train's signs are uniform unless they are put on different routes such as when Red Line has to borrow equipment to the Purple Line, but the train is displaying the Green Line signs because they are in the same position.

[jajuan]

I wasn't thinking about this in regards to this particular project, but just general signs "just in case". No different than the old CTA bus mylar signs with North Terminal, South Terminal, etc. The Roosevelt one I suggested works perfect as three lines (Red, Orange, Green) serve the station as well as a termination point for Pink Line trains when one side of the Loop is closed. We know that other things are bound to come up. As to your bus analogy, they haven't thought through some of the destination signs there either. Consider:

54 Cicero to 24th

35 31/35th to Cicero/24th PL

60 Blue Island/26th to Cicero.

Three different signage for the exact same destination. So there is proof that room exists for programming some signs. Now I am not suggesting that every station on every line has its own destination sign, but the ones I suggested are at critical points where service could be terminated or short turned.

Sure there's room for improvement here and there, but you're still putting a bit too much into this from the standpoint that the just in case situations that you line out still makes more sense for long term reroutes and short turns that are going to last a few months like the Red Line reconstruction project along the Dan Ryan segment. As for the examples you mentioned on the bus side, the only tweaking that might be justified without going too far into minutia is 54 to 24th Place instead of just 24th to distinguish it from 24th Street. Beyond that it really is just being a bit too nitpicky as a bus stop sign for either of those three routes is going to say 'XX to Cicero/24th Place' for that relevant direction.

[Busjack]

Why couldn't they put the same standard mylar sign with all destinations on all the cars ? The 21 limit ? Some of the 2600's can't even display a Purple Loop.

The simpler answer is that there is one set of signs (posted by PCCLCar) for Blue, Pink, and Green (with 2 Red positions) and another roller (not depicted here, but attached a couple of years ago) for Red, Brown, Purple and Orange. (I think Yellow has its own roller). Only 15 positions on either roller.

Then, chgofan indicates that there were enough equipment shifts that somehow cars with Blue Line signs ended up on the Brown Line.

Not clear why the Brown Line would have other than 3200s, which should have the Red/Brown/Orange/Purple roller.

[artthouwill]

Sure there's room for improvement here and there, but you're still putting a bit too much into this from the standpoint that the just in case situations that you line out still makes more sense for long term reroutes and short turns that are going to last a few months like the Red Line reconstruction project along the Dan Ryan segment. As for the examples you mentioned on the bus side, the only tweaking that might be justified without going too far into minutia is 54 to 24th Place instead of just 24th to distinguish it from 24th Street. Beyond that it really is just being a bit too nitpicky as a bus stop sign for either of those three routes is going to say 'XX to Cicero/24th Place' for that relevi ahreeant direction.

I agree that we disagree my friend. Its no big deal whether they do or don't, but I would like to see some forethought and some outside the box yet sensible thinking at CTA

[Busjack]

Hilevitch just discovered the Brownages. Maybe some day, the CTA will disclose them.

[BusHunter]

You'll be pleased to know that more attention on this matter is occurring this afternoon. Kimball is explictly checking trains to see if the "Roosevelt" is in the proper sign location. If an alternate train is in the other terminal track, the crew swaps trains. So it took more signs then they thought. I bet the "O'Hare" is in the "Roosevelt" sign position. Crews are instructed to make announcements if their train is unable to display proper signage. Of course it's more important for tomorrow's southbound am rush. Some might ask, "why not group the 'Roosevelt' signed cars together"? The problem is when a crew returns to the terminal, the crew and its schedule "falls back." Thus a different crew with perhaps a different destination might take the train back out. Only four more days.

DH

Think again, I was at Roosevelt/Red and spotted trains with half black O'hare signs and half Red Roosevelt signs. Some cars only had white signs with nothing on them. They must have been short Brown line trains because there was a Red line #2600 train with Kimball signs heading NB. The announcements were OK, but never once did I hear my train operator say they were going to Kimball. They just said they would be traveling through the state street subway which would seem obvious if your presently in it. Service SB at times was weak. I didn't see anything for about 10-12 minutes in 6:00 PM rush hour. For those still wondering, every other train goes to Roosevelt. I was surprised there was no one with a loudspeaker at Roosevelt, alot of riders were confused.

As far as the Blue line, it was really packed. (more than usual) Trains were to capacity by Washington NB. Heavy packs of riders at Clark/Lake (3 deep in spots) could do nothing but look at the trains pass by full. I haven't seen it that bad since the teacher's were on strike.

[Busjack]

...

As far as the Blue line, it was really packed. (more than usual) Trains were to capacity by Washington NB. Heavy packs of riders at Clark/Lake (3 deep in spots) could do nothing but look at the trains pass by full. I haven't seen it that bad since the teacher's were on strike.

Think people were trying to avoid the Brown Line mess by going south on a bus to Belmont/Kimball or Logan Square?

[BusHunter]

Think people were trying to avoid the Brown Line mess by going south on a bus to Belmont/Kimball or Logan Square?

Yes, that's what I'd thought they would do. I was thinking they should try to turn back some extra service at UIC. (They needed it) The Brown line train through the subway was slow, it crept to Jackson (don't know if there's a slow zone, I don't think so) Then at every station it took the riders awhile to board and the operator to announce we are going up the state street subway. (really!) Everyone was confused. Service picked up considerably at Fullerton. It seemed to me like something you would expect on a first day service. I bet alot of trains were late today. I wonder what the purple line riders did. Take Metra. It seemed like there were fewer trains overall in the subway to take the slack for 3 lines.

[owine]

My only complaint was that they were running four car purple line trains during the PM rush. They were packed to the gills.

[chgofan78]

The simpler answer is that there is one set of signs (posted by PCCLCar) for Blue, Pink, and Green (with 2 Red positions) and another roller (not depicted here, but attached a couple of years ago) for Red, Brown, Purple and Orange. (I think Yellow has its own roller). Only 15 positions on either roller.

Then, chgofan indicates that there were enough equipment shifts that somehow cars with Blue Line signs ended up on the Brown Line.

Not clear why the Brown Line would have other than 3200s, which should have the Red/Brown/Orange/Purple roller.

Brown Line cars have two sets of curtains- one that is Brown-Orange-Red-Yellow-Purple and the other is Brown-Orange-Red-Black-Green. The "Roosevelt" sign can only be found in the first set of signs. The second set will display the Midway, Downtown, and O'Hare (Black) signs. The other version of the current roller signs are Blue-Red-Pink-Green. There are two versions of this grouping- one with "58th" for the Green Line, but most have the version with "Jefferson Park" for the Blue Line. There are also about 10 cars on the Blue Line that have the latter with the "Jefferson Park" grouping, but the font is smaller very spacious. And there are two versions of the Brown-Orange-Red-Yellow-Purple grouping with most sets having a "Roosevelt" sign for the Red Line, but now that's being replaced with the "Ashland/63" sign for the Red Line.

[sw4400]

This could've been easily avoided if the CTA put about 16-20 5000-Series trains on the Brown Line to be assigned to the Subway runs only. The LED displays should be quick to program to display "Roosevelt" with a red background. I would hope for the repeat of 10-day shutdown in late April-early May, they put this into consideration. Having 3200-Series railcars with some red "Roosevelt" signs, black "O-Hare" signs and white displays with no signage is confusing.

[eyetube21]

I went to Flickr website and the CTA has posted lots of pictures of the Loop Renewal construction at Lake/Wells junction and the Wells Street bridge. http://www.flickr.com/photos/ctaweb/sets/72157632917387258/.

[artthouwill]

This morning my operator made no announcements concerning no Brown Line service in the Loop.

Also, why are there Loop shuttle trains? This makes no sense. A Pink or Orange Line train should be enough to cover the Loop.

[Busjack]

This morning my operator made no announcements concerning no Brown Line service in the Loop.

Also, why are there Loop shuttle trains? This makes no sense. A Pink or Orange Line train should be enough to cover the Loop.

Unless something else happened, there wouldn't be any outer loop service.

The old Loop Shuttle (in the 70s) was because there wasn't a way otherwise to get from Wells to a Dan Ryan train at Clark and Lake. The question now is whether there is enough demand to get from Wells or Van Buren to Adams and Wabash for the Green Line.

Update: From one of the flyers:

A Loop Shuttle Train will operate continuously, making all stops on the Brown Line side of the Loop ‘L’, during all weekday hours where Brown Line service usually operates there

[jajuan]

I agree that we disagree my friend. Its no big deal whether they do or don't, but I would like to see some forethought and some outside the box yet sensible thinking at CTA

That's fine though I'm not sure how far you expect them to go with setting up extraneous electronic destination signs for some just in case scenario when (1) theoretically there's possibly no limit to where a train is short turned when you factor in single track operation near the closest interlocking track alignments, (2) there are some issues and projects like this one that are too short term to really justify it and (3) for this current project itself there aren't even enough 5000 series cars yet to implement what you were stressing could have been put in place without doing wholesale rail car reassignments beyond what's already reported that they had to do to make use of older cars that have a red "Roosevelt" sign.

[sw4400]

(3) for this current project itself there aren't even enough 5000 series cars yet to implement what you were stressing could have been put in place without doing wholesale rail car reassignments beyond what's already reported that they had to do to make use of older cars that have a red "Roosevelt" sign.

You couldn't have borrowd just 15-20 5000's for Subway Brown Line service only? That's a drop in the bucket if you borrow them from the Green or Red Lines as they have other railcars of the same series and different series. It's only until Friday anyway! It appears the older cars that have the red "Roosevelt" sign appearantly don't, otherwise explain how a 3200-Series railcar has curtains with a red "Roosevelt" sign on some cars, a black "O-Hare" sign on others and a white sign with no destination whatsoever. If they had those signs, I don't think there would issues with the displays.

Again with the 5000's, you program the computer and all cars show "Roosevelt" on the red background.

[Busjack]

....

Again with the 5000's, you program the computer and all cars show "Roosevelt" on the red background.

From the comments I'm reading on the CTA Tattler today, CTA is doing its best to screw things up. Da Mare says he is still riding the train, so I wonder how close he got to City Hall either way.

And then from what I read here last night, I certainly don't see why they are shifting cars just at the beginning or in the midst of this project. As I noted earlier, fewer cars should be needed this week with the elimination of Purple Express and lesser frequency on the Brown and Puce (which seems descriptive of Brown via Red).

[chicagopcclcar]

You couldn't have borrowd just 15-20 5000's for Subway Brown Line service only? That's a drop in the bucket if you borrow them from the Green or Red Lines as they have other railcars of the same series and different series. It's only until Friday anyway! It appears the older cars that have the red "Roosevelt" sign appearantly don't, otherwise explain how a 3200-Series railcar has curtains with a red "Roosevelt" sign on some cars, a black "O-Hare" sign on others and a white sign with no destination whatsoever. If they had those signs, I don't think there would issues with the displays.

Again with the 5000's, you program the computer and all cars show "Roosevelt" on the red background.

You cannot transfer 5000 series cars from line to line on a whim. Operators have to be qualified to operate a given series of cars. Brown and Orange line operators are not qualified to operate 5000 series cars. There are still Red line operators who are still not qualified to operate 5000 series cars.

And I still haven't been shown that 5000 series roll signs can be reconfigured so easily. Maybe it can be done on bus signs, but has that capability been proved on the 'L' rollsigns?

DH

[Busjack]

And I still haven't been shown that 5000 series roll signs can be reconfigured so easily. Maybe it can be done on bus signs, but has that capability been proved on the 'L' rollsigns?

DH

It's a computer. They should have checked that out.

Anyway, they don't do such a great job on the bus signs, either, if the 0 run number thread means anything.

Maybe they should have gone all 1999 old school and tape paper destination signs to the L car windows. I'm sure with your exclusive expertise in rapid transit operations you can tell us why that wouldn't work. Except that what CTA did yesterday didn't work either.

[jajuan]

You cannot transfer 5000 series cars from line to line on a whim. Operators have to be qualified to operate a given series of cars. Brown and Orange line operators are not qualified to operate 5000 series cars. There are still Red line operators who are still not qualified to operate 5000 series cars.

And I still haven't been shown that 5000 series roll signs can be reconfigured so easily. Maybe it can be done on bus signs, but has that capability been proved on the 'L' rollsigns?

DH

Which basically gets to my central point that "Oh just take some 5000 series cars and plug in some signs" for various short turns and reroutes isn't as simple as some are making it sound. For one thing isn't there the factor of certain destinations being switched over when a train trips a particular interlock position to factor in? I leave it to others to go down the "CTA screws up everything" train of thought when this was going to be a challenge either way to get passengers to endure by virtue of how busy the Red, Brown, Purple Express (more the Red and Brown Lines) combination is under normal circumstances.

[chicagopcclcar]

It's a computer. They should have checked that out.

Anyway, they don't do such a great job on the bus signs, either, if the 0 run number thread means anything.

Maybe they should have gone all 1999 old school and tape paper destination signs to the L car windows. I'm sure with your exclusive expertise in rapid transit operations you can tell us why that wouldn't work. Except that what CTA did yesterday didn't work either.

Mr. "Busjack", sir......I admit I know absolutely nothing about the colored LED rollsigns on the 5000 series cars. I don't know how information is inputed, how changes can be programmed, what steps are necessary to rearrange the displays. I imagine all of the CTA routes are already in the system, perhaps anticipated routes as well. I imagine suspected short turns are programmed already like "UIC" for the Blue line.

Your response...."It's a computer" "They should have checked that out" shows that you too know nothing about the LED roll sign system in the 5000 series cars. Why don't you be a man and admit what you don't know and lay off the negative implications.

DH

[Busjack]

... Why don't you be a man and admit what you don't know and lay off the negative implications.

DH

But I see you didn't want to tackle the paper sign challenge, either.

[chicagopcclcar]

But I see you didn't want to tackle the paper sign challenge, either.

What paper sign challenge?

So you are admitting you know nothing about the 5000 series LED roll signs?

Do you agree 5000s cannot be moved line to line without operators being qualified? You never respond to specific situations. You merely look for as many negatives as possible.

[Busjack]

What paper sign challenge?

I guess you are admitting that you can't read the following portion which you quoted above:

Maybe they should have gone all 1999 old school and tape paper

destination signs to the L car windows. I'm sure with your exclusive

expertise in rapid transit operations you can tell us why that wouldn't

work.

[chicagopcclcar]

I guess you are admitting that you can't read the following portion which you quoted above:

You do it every time. There were three items in my post. Did you respond to all three..... NO!